So you have an all original car...OK...

[Steve Plucker]

So you have an all original car. Model T, A or whatever.

You notice it needs a new backing plate, so you exchange the old one with a better one.

Or you see that the chassis is just covered with old hard grease in many areas, so you decide to remove the body and really clean it up thus leaving much of the original paint as possible.

Then you notice that there are a few bearings that need replaced...and so on and so on........

I guess maybe you can see where I am going with this.

SO...at what point do you consider if this car is being restored or just being fixed up thus not being restored?

Where does one draw the line?

Thanks.

Pluck

[P.S.]

I can answer that.

If you flip your Hemmings Model A calendar back to July 2017, you will see a very professional picture of my all original 29 standard fordor. It drives like a dream; Easily the best driving Model A I have ever driven.

It does have new wheel bearings, rear end bearings, generator bearings, clutch, tires, fan belt, radiator hoses, motor mount rubber pads, and new oil and gas. Can I still call it "all original"? You bet. You see, those items are maintenance items. If your plan is to park the car and never drive it, then you don't need to replace those items. Might as well just take a picture of the car and hang it on the wall if you're going to do that.

Our all-original car is still very much alive. It still has all of the parts it left the factory with, including its factory applied paint job. The seats still have the factory material and stuffing (but I keep them covered with blankets to prevent tears), the frame and undercarriage has been kept clean all its life just like the topsides, and the car has never been taken apart. All the main bolts and hardware are still exactly where the factory workers left them. Pretty sure that qualifies as an all-original car by almost every definition.

So, where do you draw the line on originality being lost? That is highly subjective! My personal opinion:

When you remove the body
When you do a repaint.
When you replace any interior cloth
When you change the motor
When you swap any part, like the rear end, with a part from another car
When you "modify" the car (high compression head, overdrive, etc.)

Opinions will vary.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Steve,

In my humble opinion to respond to:

"So you have an all ORIGINAL car. Model T, A or whatever .... Where does one draw the line?"

Maybe just one (1) very simple way to look at it:


1. Here is Model A owner (Al): The minute Model A owner named (Al) heard a very very slight knock in his engine with a sensitive stethoscope, he removed a few shims to adjust his Babbitt bearings, prior to going to show his "new" girlfriend his beautiful sparkling Model A.

Now his Model A is no longer ORIGINAL.

2. On the other hand, here is Model A owner (Bo): The minute Model A owner named (Bo) heard a very very slight knock in his engine with a sensitive stethoscope, he did NOT remove a few shims to adjust his Babbitt bearings. He loaded his Model A on a trailer and towed to go show his "new" girlfriend his beautiful sparkling Model A.

His Model A is still ORIGINAL.

[Oldbluoval]

In was once an owner of a 30k mile M of O Model A.
I did some upgrades like a better set of Original plated bumpers, oriiginal dash and NOS running boards.
Nothing was ever added that was not original .....in original Ford produced condition ....to the car. Oops one thing ...the drivers window was so yellow and spider webbed that I replaced it with a replacement but XxX glass
I consider that car "original"

[glenn in camino]

In my opinion, the most important items are original paint and upholstery. Minor mechanical items are unimportant

[H. L. Chauvin]

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Maybe just very typical, Model A Forum Stories:

Another comparison might be that a certain old hard headed, conceited Grandpa was filmed standing up & swearing on his precious Bible at his Family Reunion that he is 100% pure something or other ..................

Then, after Grandpa sits down, his 15 year old great-grandson gets up reads aloud the results of the D & A test that Gramps took last month and forgot all about it !!!

Come to find out, Gramp's D & A heritage indicates Gramps is kin to everyone from a Country formerly listed in the Original League of Nations ...... but for Gramps who also has an all Original Model A ..... this D & A nonsense goes in one ear and exits the other.

[Tinbasher]

I remember being at a car gathering 40 years ago and there was an original car from the 50's there. It had around 7000 miles on it. One guy was up in arms because it was no longer original because the carb and plug wires had been changed. It was all down hill from there!!!

John Poole

[Mr. J]

I know I'm new at this but I would think that if you wa's wanting to drive it I wouldnt worry about originality but safety and good maintenance, I know I might stur up a hornets nest by saying this, but the way I look at it eventually no matter how many times you wash it or change the oil something is going to have to be changed so why worry so much about if it has the original hose clamps or if you still use the original grease fittings as long as it runs good and stops like it should I would consider it an original because no matter what anyone says they don't make any more of them and if you have one that runs then it's original, sorry if I stured it up but that's just my opinion

[Smooth_One]

That's why I just say mine is Original Metal
I have replaced a few things but those things had large holes in them and were needed to drive the car.
Mine has been painted but it was no later than the 50's.

[dean from bozeman]

P.S. I totally agree with you on this one.

'It does have new wheel bearings, rear end bearings, generator bearings, clutch, tires, fan belt, radiator hoses, motor mount rubber pads, and new oil and gas. Can I still call it "all original"? You bet. You see, those items are maintenance items. If your plan is to park the car and never drive it, then you don't need to replace those items. Might as well just take a picture of the car and hang it on the wall if you're going to do that.' P.S.

Now here is a can of worms opening:

What if the car is an all original 20,000 mile survivor except for a gas cap that had been replace through the years and you put on an original gas cap with a patina that matches the rest of the car? Is it not original anymore? When the gas cap was replaced along the way, did that mean that it would never be original again?

The adjective definition of original is:present or existing from the beginning Therefore the lost gas cap from years ago doomed the 20,000 mile car from being "totally" original. I would therefore argue that there are degrees of originality.

Almost every year at the MARC national meet we get to judge a vehicle or two that is considered original. You can see that there have been some slight changes through the years to keep these vehicles on the road. Do we deduct for that? Yes, we do. Therefore, even these wonderful vehicles are found to have a degree of originality.

If we used the definition of original as 'present or existing from the beginning', we would have zero original Model A's.

Let's applaud those we have that are considered original. Though their degree of originality may differ, we can appreciate them and learn from them...whether they have the gas cap that came with the car when it was new or not.

[captndan]

The correct police are a sorry bunch. If you want all original buy a diamond ring.

[figment]

Most of the "Original Cars" that I have seen at the National meets that were in fine point judging were mostly as follows.

Mostly original paint and sometimed primer showing through.
Vehicle has not been restored or disassembled.
Some minor repairs and maintenance , but mostly original bolts and nuts
Most of the interior is original.

The car or trucks were usually clean or were cleaned underneath.
The interior was cleaned and vacuumed.

This is only what I observed , others will have other information.

[figment]

A diamond ring stone is not original is is cut to fit the mounting or style.

[frankfalcone]

I have a February 14 1928 Tudor. The interior of the car is exactly as it came from the factory. Grey cloth with a stripe ,that was dropped in February of 1928. I am sure there are very few examples that still exist. This interior has to be one of the best to survive, the only damage is on the carpet left foot area.
I have put together a nine page list of the early original factory parts and the timeline of their usage that are on this car. The parts were made functional and safe when I bought the car most parts were already painted.
The top was duck tapped on the body and hood partly stripped so they were redone. The fenders have some minor flaws that happened over the years they were not repaired .The car is not a garage ornament.
I consider this car to be original except for a few maintenance items it's as the factory workers assembled .
The only thing that is for sure is nothing is for sure.

[Railcarmover]

Is your car still a Model A? does the thousands of dollars you spent on 'touring' upgrades make you no different than a hotrod builder without a sawzall? as long as it looks 'original' on the outside pump 4 grand into a 200 cu in L head engine to wrest 15 horsepower out of it...spend thousands to go 65 mph on a freeway so some kid in a Honda can tailgate you..air conditioning? really?..

Perhaps the things done to make it 'better' changes the cars soul..straight cut gears take skill to operate,mechanical brakes take sense to have,when your teeth rattle your pushing it too hard...hot?open the windshield,sweat a little..

you can have an 'original' car, just like the one designed by Ford,hell scratch around enough and you can do it with Rouge parts..originality isn't a judging standard,its a choice made by the owner..

[dean from bozeman]

Railcarmover, "original" in the context of this thread is a car that has not been restored or altered. Usually they are low mileage vehicles.

Sometimes "original" can mean to restore to the specifications that were used to create that vehicle.

With the first definition of "original" the only choice is to keep it in that condition or not. The judging standards are designed to help folks restore or correct items so that the vehicle is like that which was driven off the assembly line.

Judging standards are based on originality. So perhaps, originality is the judging standard.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by Railcarmover

Is your car still a Model A? does the thousands of dollars you spent on 'touring' upgrades make you no different than a hotrod builder without a sawzall? as long as it looks 'original' on the outside pump 4 grand into a 200 cu in L head engine to wrest 15 horsepower out of it...spend thousands to go 65 mph on a freeway so some kid in a Honda can tailgate you..air conditioning? really?..

Perhaps the things done to make it 'better' changes the cars soul..straight cut gears take skill to operate,mechanical brakes take sense to have,when your teeth rattle your pushing it too hard...hot?open the windshield,sweat a little..

you can have an 'original' car, just like the one designed by Ford,hell scratch around enough and you can do it with Rouge parts..originality isn't a judging standard,its a choice made by the owner..

Very well said. I like to keep them the way they were made too. Others have their own opinion what "our" Model A should be or could be. Would a true collector add paint to a Rembrandt?

[captndan]

Originally Posted by figment

A diamond ring stone is not original is is cut to fit the mounting or style.

I just knew it.

[Scottio57]

After reading all these responses I see there are more categories than just original and not. I think it is common sense that all vehicles need routine maintenance. This includes replacing worn or broken parts, paint, upholstery, grease,oil, water. If one wants to say if you repainted your car it is no longer original then the first time you change oil it is no longer original which, of course, is ridiculous. Hemmings has alway been the recognized authority on these things and they have categories for classifying our cars. I think we should not find ways to separate our cars. We all have some awesome cars in there own way. Amazing restorations. Fine example of an original. Daily drivers showing wear but being driven. Mine is more original than yours sounds a lot like school kids saying my dad can beat up your dad.

[katy]

My CCPU is neither original or restored, I call it refurbished.

[P.S.]

There is quite a debate about what is original going on in the comments under this Model A video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqA28sHrWiA

Admittedly, the video is stupid. All it was supposed to do was show the car, never intended to see the light of day.

So, did we ever figure out what qualifies for "original"? Is this car what you would call "original"? Some commenters call it "restored". Where do you stand on this car?

[History]

Collecting militaria, different but,,,,,,. A german k98 rifle can sell for thousands depending on make, year and condition. If any parts are not matching numbers (UNLESS) its armorers replacement parts it is considered altered or not original. If it's a missmash of parts put together but the Russians after being captured or otherwise stock sanded to make it purdy, drilled and tapped for a scope for a hunter the value goes down exponentially.

Not an equal comparison and I'll let you guys settle this and quote you years from.

[McMimmcs]

As soon as you upgrade it is no longer original ! High compression head, radial tires etcetera you no longer have an original Model A. You may not likely it but that is the fact. Replacement parts as long as same as factory are acceptable.

[77Birdman]

I have been involved in this debate on other forums. If you go all the way back to post #2 this is my opinion on the subject. Wear items should be considered as ok to replace and still retain 'originality'. I doubt many of us know the original owners, especially going back to the late 20's, so if someone in the cars infancy replaced a dented fender, or put on a new wheel that may have been dented in a rut without our positive knowledge, that is still original IMO. Cleaning grease is ok, replacing 1929 air in the tire is ok, but removing engines, removing bodies, replacing wood, is not original. The AACA has a HPOF (or something like that) class for 'original cars'. Their guideline is pretty good, they do allow replacement components though IF they are period correct.

I get a kick out of old car ads that say 'factory original', or 'survivor' and then go on to say 'only 1 repaint' or motor rebuilt'. Although I did hear someone say that if the car didnt go into the crusher then it IS a survivor, I cant argue that!

[Licensed to kill]

IMO it's all silly semantics. The word "original" is not quantitative. It either is or it is not and i would feel comfortable saying that there are NO "original" Model A's left in the world. The word I would use is "stock". Not modified in any way. It's like hot rodders that say, "I built my car" or, my favourite "built not bought". If you started out with a car, you renovated it. You didn't BUILD it. Ford BUILT it (in the case of a model A). However, if it makes someone feel good to say they "built it" or that their car is "original", that's OK with me. It's none of my business what others want to call their rides. I just smile and nod. BTW, my first thought when I started to read this thread was an old saying in the black powder rendezvous circles, "I own Davey Crocketts personal original tomahawk. Over the years the head has been changed twice and the handle has been changed 4 times but it is Davey Crocketts personal original tomahawk". If you say so.

[Jack Shaft]

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I took a model a that had been molested and hacked by amateur restorers and returned it to operating and driving condition by using a majority of parts from a car that perished in a fire..basically I put one back on the road when the prospects of that were non existent.My next project will be a complete car made of parts found..is it 'original'? no..but 2 model a's god willing will return to active service.

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by P.S.

There is quite a debate about what is original going on in the comments under this Model A video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqA28sHrWiA

Admittedly, the video is stupid. All it was supposed to do was show the car, never intended to see the light of day.

So, did we ever figure out what qualifies for "original"? Is this car what you would call "original"? Some commenters call it "restored". Where do you stand on this car?

Not a stupid video, I enjoyed it. Thanks for sharing. One question tho, what happened to your engine pan(s)? I always like the looks of the engine pans on a Model A engine.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by P.S.

There is quite a debate about what is original going on in the comments under this Model A video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqA28sHrWiA

Admittedly, the video is stupid. All it was supposed to do was show the car, never intended to see the light of day.

So, did we ever figure out what qualifies for "original"? Is this car what you would call "original"? Some commenters call it "restored". Where do you stand on this car?

Paul, two things come to mind in your situation. To begin with, had you never mentioned the engine was rebuilt, they would have never known and would have accepted it as original. The main reason is the rebuild was all internal and thus undetectable had the engine not been repainted.

Second, one should consider the Concours Host (-and their rules or guidelines) as the expert authority of what is original or not. Both of the national Model-A clubs, the AACA, and many other non-marque concours events would all allow your vehicle to be entered into their Original class as-is. So if it meets their criteria of being called Original, then what does the opinion of those trolls matter??


One point I will criticize you on slightly, is I know of several 'restored' Model-As that will drive equally as well as what yours or other low-mileage original Model-As will. One example would be your friend Marco's restored Roadster.

[Chris Haynes]

If a vehicle is "Restored" it is returned to the condition it was in when it left the factory. Maintenance and rebuilding is not restoring.

[30ccpickup]

Originally Posted by Steve Plucker

So you have an all original car. Model T, A or whatever.

You notice it needs a new backing plate, so you exchange the old one with a better one.

Or you see that the chassis is just covered with old hard grease in many areas, so you decide to remove the body and really clean it up thus leaving much of the original paint as possible.

Then you notice that there are a few bearings that need replaced...and so on and so on........

I guess maybe you can see where I am going with this.

SO...at what point do you consider if this car is being restored or just being fixed up thus not being restored?

Where does one draw the line?

Thanks.

Pluck

Steve,

It looks like you have had a few years to ponder your own question. Where do you stand?

[Licensed to kill]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

If a vehicle is "Restored" it is returned to the condition it was in when it left the factory. Maintenance and rebuilding is not restoring.

What do you define as "rebuilding" and how does it differ from "restoring"?. It seems to me that anytime you make a repair, you are restoring that part to factory condition whether it's an engine rebuild, brake job or whatever. Using the gorgeous fordor in the video posted previously, to be accurate (IMO) it would be described is two ways. 1. It's an original with a restored/rebuilt (either one) engine (and anything else that has been changed since leaving the factory) or 2. It's stock sporting the original factory paint, interior and nearly all mechanical components. However, if the owner wants to call it "stock" or "original" or a "survivor" or any other adjective, it doesn't REALLY matter. The problem comes when looking at two different cars. Example is if I respond to the car in the video with "Nice, I have an original '31 tudor. It's been repainted and the engine has been changed and the interior has been redone but it is all stock". By calling mine "original" elevates it's "status" to that of the car in the video and/or, reduces the car in the video's "status" by referring to them both as "original". So to would be if someone produced a model A in pristine condition that has never had any mechanical repairs in it's life, just grease and oil changes that would truly be an "original" would not be the same as the car in the video. However, like Brent pointed out, if the owner of the car in the video didn't volunteer that the motor was rebuilt nobody would ever know if the owner wanted be deceitful about that. there are a lot of people out there without the kind if integrity shown in the video IMO. It doesn't matter one bit to me how others describe their car (unless they are trying to sell it to me) but I do find these discussions on semantics fun as long as nobody gets their knickers in a knot over it.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

If a vehicle is "Restored" it is returned to the condition it was in when it left the factory. Maintenance and rebuilding is not restoring.

I agree, perhaps add a 3rd option - Refurbishment?

[Jeff/Illinois]

Not a 'dumb' video at all, I really enjoyed watching this!!

Paul knows his way around Model A Fords, you can tell. Nice cars I like all of them. And did you catch the solid ice box 'clunk' when he shut the doors! Nice!

One thing that was glaring to me at least was, JANUARY 1st??? And weather like that! Sure tain't the Peoples' Republic of Illinois pretty obvious Why in the heck did I stay HERE all these years that was nuts.

[P.S.]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Paul, two things come to mind in your situation. To begin with, had you never mentioned the engine was rebuilt, they would have never known and would have accepted it as original. The main reason is the rebuild was all internal and thus undetectable had the engine not been repainted.

Second, one should consider the Concours Host (-and their rules or guidelines) as the expert authority of what is original or not. Both of the national Model-A clubs, the AACA, and many other non-marque concours events would all allow your vehicle to be entered into their Original class as-is. So if it meets their criteria of being called Original, then what does the opinion of those trolls matter??


One point I will criticize you on slightly, is I know of several 'restored' Model-As that will drive equally as well as what yours or other low-mileage original Model-As will. One example would be your friend Marco's restored Roadster.

Valid point. By the way, a few years ago, I posted a portion of a video I shot while riding in Marco's roadster. That car is unreal.



My tudor sedan is restored with nothing but N.O.S. parts, and it's pretty close to the driving experience but still not quite. It just doesn't "feel" the same as the original car.



You're right about the engine internals. I wish it didn't have to get repainted, but the restorer did it thinking he was helping me. Same thing happened to the radiator when I had the radiator shop boil and rod it out. They repainted it. Now you have to look closely to see that it's original.


I know opinions run all across the board, but I am still curious to see what middle ground looks like. My opinion is that tires, belts, hoses, etc. can be replaced and a 91 year old car is still original. Where do you draw the line? For me it is a repaint, motor swap, interior material swap or similar. But, I asked because I am trying to learn, not to share my opinions.



Thanks for the kind words. I will never know everything about Model A's, but I am enjoying the journey trying to learn as much as possible. It feeds my Asperger's Syndrome.

[P.S.]

Originally Posted by Ruth

Not a stupid video, I enjoyed it. Thanks for sharing. One question tho, what happened to your engine pan(s)? I always like the looks of the engine pans on a Model A engine.

They were removed in the 1950's for some reason. I have a set, though not original to that car, so I could always put them on for judging. But the car is just being preserved as it has been handed down and not built up as a white ribbon car. What you see is what it is.

[katy]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

If a vehicle is "Restored" it is returned to the condition it was in when it left the factory. Maintenance and rebuilding is not restoring.

Then there's the cars on the TV shows that they call restored, w/fancy wheels, different drive train, lowered, super duper upholstery and who knows what-all done to them.

[CHuDWah]

The "original" debate has been raging for the 60 years I've been involved with old cars and no doubt well before then. It will never be settled because there are so many definitions of the term. For example, a popular definition is "as it left the factory." I submit there is no such thing. As soon as a car rolled off the assembly line (and likely before), it began to change. It incurred wear before it ever left the factory lot. That process continued throughout its life, so worn parts may have been replaced. Even if they were OEM, they were not factory-installed on that particular car. If they weren't replaced, they no longer met factory specs. So the car wasn't "as built." Yes, that's a ridiculously strict definition but it illustrates the point that the semantics are meaningless.

[jimalabam]

A completely ORIGINAL car of any make is almost impossible these days. Yes if the car is running and driveable, maintenance items would have been required. "Other changes would be questionable and open for discussion. "Original Only Once," will ALWAYS be open to questions, exemptions etc, when discussing Model A's or what ever...

[mach0415]

At some point that original model A will need to have something done. I look at it as many historical sites in a state of preservation, doing and replacing things as closely to original as possible. Do any of us do the same with our modern vehicles? I try to stick to OEM, but my 2008 Mustang GT has many upgrades and non-factory items on it that in my opinion make it perform better. I’m not sure modern cars will really reach the point of collector worthy or restorable, but I’m sure none of the folks that bought these cars when they were new ever thought they would be on the road 92 years later too.

[Aarongriffey]

So you’re saying my friend’s ‘28 phaeton that’s been made into a pickup, has not been driven since 1930, has 1942 license plates, a two barrel Weber carb and an alternator is not an original?