Rear Panhard Bar ?

[duke36]

We "inherited" a rear panhard bar (left side only) on our tn sedan. Looks like one from vendor's catalogues.
Is it beneficial without a front bar? Also, can it induce any stresses on the rear suspension or cause any rear body lean due to improper adjustment?

[steve s]

I have both front and rear on my town sedan. The rear made a big difference; I noticed very little change after adding the front. The object is to stabilize against the sideways oscillations that are permitted by the transverse "buggy" spring shackles. I think this is most important in a heavy-back-end model, such as the town sedan.

I don't think it can hurt anything. it's set up when the car is at rest so that there is no load, or stress, when the body is centered where it's supposed to be. Although it sort of looks like it only works on the left side, it actually works across the entire car width. Ideally, the bar would span the width of the car, but I guess they couldn't figure out a way to do that with the Model A.

I was very impressed with the immediate improvement in how stable, or more modern, the car felt after I installed the rear Panhard. I would not be without it.

[bettlesr]

I also have two panhard bars. The rear made a bigger difference than the front.

[glenn in camino]

I've been thinking of adding both to my deluxe delivery as it feels unstable on tours when it's fully loaded with travel stuff.

[duke36]

Sorry to revisit this thread, but is the rear panhard bar only OK with tube shocks all around? The front bar won't fit with front tube shocks and not sure any front sidesway compensation is needed...

[bettlesr]

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For a long time I had the rear bar with tube shocks. No problems.

[Smog Tech]

I use the rear bar with tube shocks, no problem.

[gearloose]

What vendor carries them for the A?

[Y-Blockhead]

Snyder's does but they spell it wrong... http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/rear-pannard-bar

I have one on the rear of my Town Sedan, really helps in the Big Cars.

[steve s]

Originally Posted by gearloose

What vendor carries them for the A?

Snyders used to. If they don't anymore, maybe they could give you their supplier. I got mine from some California outfit--maybe, A&L or something like that. Maybe Gene Scott?

[gearloose]

Thanks

[Purdy Swoft]

I have the rear and front panhard bars on our roadster . The rear is the important one to use . I'm not sure that the front does much .The panhard bar stabilizes the ride on turns. The model A rear end can slightly swing with the rear spring shackles in sharp turns, especially if accellerateing .The panhard . prevents side sway. I use friction shocks with mine.

[George Miller]

I think the front bar would only help if you went in to a sharp turn to fast.
The rear works good on heavy cars like stated above.

[SteveB31]

Bert’s has them modelastore.com

[Purdy Swoft]

My roadster is a light car and the rear panhard bar helped it quite a bit . I don't use the panhard bars on my heavier sedans and they never felt like they needed one .

[steve s]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

My roadster is a light car and the rear panhard bar helped it quite a bit . I don't use the panhard bars on my heavier sedans and they never felt like they needed one .

I'm always struck by how if you ask enough people you will hear exactly opposite opinions on any issue having to do with Model As. I wonder if there is even a short list of things that absolutely everyone agrees on?

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

I once did a valve re-grind on a car called a "DYNA-PANHARD"---The Owners' Manual was in FRENCH!
Bill Can'tread

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

I once did a valve re-grind on a car called a "DYNA-PANHARD"---The Owners' Manual was in FRENCH!
Bill Can'tread

Yes, Panhard is a French auto manufacturer and inventor of the Panhard bar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panhard_rod

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by steve s

I'm always struck by how if you ask enough people you will hear exactly opposite opinions on any issue having to do with Model As. I wonder if there is even a short list of things that absolutely everyone agrees on?

'short list' ?
Yes....very short , like oil usage ! Or how to spell Model eh .

Q: If Panhard is French origin, what is Pannard origin ?

[zzlegend]

Originally Posted by steve s

I'm always struck by how if you ask enough people you will hear exactly opposite opinions on any issue having to do with Model As. I wonder if there is even a short list of things that absolutely everyone agrees on?

Kind of reminds me of a thread a while back, on how far people run their GAV open. Most, but not all say 1/4 turn. I stated my would run much better and smoother at about 1/2 to 3/4 open. And someone came back stated ,,,, " anyone see a problem with this" ?
Oh wait a minute,,,,,,,that was you that said that. Go figure. Ok, now back to Panhard bars.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by steve s

I'm always struck by how if you ask enough people you will hear exactly opposite opinions on any issue having to do with Model As. I wonder if there is even a short list of things that absolutely everyone agrees on?

No harm meant Steve S or George Miller ... I just post my experience . My sedans have never swayed in sharp turns like my roadster did . The roadster had it bad . the panhard bar removed the sway . My wife said there was no sway at all , She was the one driving and scaired the h-ll out of me when she accellerated around a sharp turn . Maybe the rear spring shackles were not tight enough , maybe it was the improved power of the engine . Our sedans are stock . Any way , the panhard bar completely solved the problem . There isn't many things that I have ever posted that I didn't have to defend at one time or another . No offence !!! insert smiley face .

[California Travieso]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

I once did a valve re-grind on a car called a "DYNA-PANHARD"---The Owners' Manual was in FRENCH!
Bill Can'tread

Bill,

Road & Track Magazine used to review all the European cars. I remember they did an article on the Dyna-Panhard back in the '50's. I might have seen a couple of them but I don't think many were imported.

Road & Track used to also describe the suspensions of the sports cars and European race road racing cars. Many of them had Panhard Bars because they had to minimize the body roll when the cars went into the turns at high speeds.

David Serrano

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

'short list' ?
Yes....very short , like oil usage ! Or how to spell Model eh .

Q: If Panhard is French origin, what is Pannard origin ?

Misspelled... or fat fingers

[steve s]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

No harm meant Steve S or George Miller ... I just post my experience . My sedans have never swayed in sharp turns like my roadster did . The roadster had it bad . the panhard bar removed the sway . My wife said there was no sway at all , She was the one driving and scaired the h-ll out of me when she accellerated around a sharp turn . Maybe the rear spring shackles were not tight enough , maybe it was the improved power of the engine . Our sedans are stock . Any way , the panhard bar completely solved the problem . There isn't many things that I have ever posted that I didn't have to defend at one time or another . No offence !!! insert smiley face .

No offense taken, Purdy, I totally believe you. I just find it fascinating how individualistic our cars can be. Mechanical things aren't supposed to be like that.

I used to live in Gadsden, by the way.

[California Travieso]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

No harm meant Steve S or George Miller ... I just post my experience . My sedans have never swayed in sharp turns like my roadster did . The roadster had it bad . the panhard bar removed the sway . My wife said there was no sway at all , She was the one driving and scaired the h-ll out of me when she accellerated around a sharp turn . Maybe the rear spring shackles were not tight enough , maybe it was the improved power of the engine . Our sedans are stock . Any way , the panhard bar completely solved the problem . There isn't many things that I have ever posted that I didn't have to defend at one time or another . No offence !!! insert smiley face .

Purdy,

I'm a a newcomer to Model A's, so I think everyone's opinion is appreciated here, certainly by me. It's great to be able to get everyone's opinion and make up my mind on a lot of issues.

I was just watching a story on the Major League Network about Tony Gwynn of the San Diego Padres who was a great hitter. During his career, a baseball analyst brought him together, on a radio broadcast, with another San Diego legend Ted Williams who was a great hitter with the Boston Red Sox.

At first Tony was in awe of Williams. Williams used to always ask other Ball players about hitting, and Tony said he was afraid of giving the wrong answer. As the interview progressed, he began to realize that his experience was different but it did not make his approach to hitting any less valid.

Ironically, Tony actually became a better hitter after that interview. I think it shows that no matter how well you think you know a subject or how successful you are, you can always learn from other people's experience.

David Serrano

[George Miller]

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Originally Posted by steve s

No offense taken, Purdy, I totally believe you. I just find it fascinating how individualistic our cars can be. Mechanical things aren't supposed to be like that.

I used to live in Gadsden, by the way.

None taken here. I was just saying how I think the front one works.

[Purdy Swoft]

I was most likely under estimating the value of the front panhard bar . I did install both front and rear .

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Misspelled... or fat fingers

Your close or more likely correct ! Berts is the origin, I believe, as that's the only place I've seen pannard bar !
Since reading this thread, I'm going to check that equipment out for the rear of my roadster. Sounds good, if it works as some here have stated ! Model As sit rather high and do lean a bit.

[Pat Martone]

I hope you can clear-up my confusion about the use of the rear panhard bar on a town sedan that already has Ken Davis's tube shocks on it. According to both "bettlesr" and "smog tech" in this thread they indicate the panhard bar can be used with tube shocks, but when I read the installation instructions via the Snyder's link included in the response from "y-blockhead", they say in big bold letters panhard bar "CAN NOT" be used with modern style cylinder shocks. Is this a mistake in the Snyder instructions or do I need to get a different rear panhard bar from a different supplier? Thanks.

[updraught]

"In the spring of 1934 , the bodies are changed at the windshield receiving a little extra glass in the corners and improves vision, it is the Panoramic. In 1936 , appears the Dynamic." ....

"The car, called the Dyna , is presented at the Paris Salon in October 1946 , but the production will start in 1948 ( 1,350 copies produced that first year)."

https://www.automania.be/files/Image...0-%2071989.jpg

Seems to handle OK. Must have a Panhard rod.

https://www.automania.be/historiques...levassor-story
Click on the union jack for the American translation.

[V4F]

panhard bar a must with coil overs

[bettlesr]

I had no problem using the panhard rod in the rear. The front rod was a different story. with tubular shocks all around the front bar wanted to go through the side of the front shocks. I had to reposition the front shocks. Also the mounting assembly on the front made the chassis bend in the front even though it fits between the shock mount and the chassis. I had to add a spacer between the bottom of the chassis and the mounting assembly and the put an extra bolt through that.

[Binger]

I wouldn't think it would make any difference if you ran tube shocks, stock shocks or even friction shocks as long as there wasn't any clearance issues. Was the clearance issue the reason why? I like the responses here about making the handling better. I am considering one on my sedan project and installing one on the rear of my Hot Rod banger coupe.

[duke36]

Recollection is that Snyder's had an error in their instructions. (but should check with them or Brattons who may still sell the same similar set up).

[don3527]

The A-5312 rear panhard bar kit that we make will work with the modern cylinder shocks. We fixed the note about that in our catalog description but we missed fixing it in the downloadable instruction sheet.

Thanks,
Don Snyder

[pooch]

Originally Posted by Binger

I wouldn't think it would make any difference if you ran tube shocks, stock shocks or even friction shocks as long as there wasn't any clearance issues. Was the clearance issue the reason why? I like the responses here about making the handling better. I am considering one on my sedan project and installing one on the rear of my Hot Rod banger coupe.

As long as you realise a panhard bar cures wallowing , NOT roll as has been suggested here.

A sway bar is for roll.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by don3527

The A-5312 rear panhard bar kit that we make will work with the modern cylinder shocks. We fixed the note about that in our catalog description but we missed fixing it in the downloadable instruction sheet.

Thanks,
Don Snyder

Don, Consider checking the spelling' also. P-A-N-H-A-R-D

[Binger]

Originally Posted by pooch

As long as you realise a panhard bar cures wallowing , NOT roll as has been suggested here.

A sway bar is for roll.

Right. my understanding is the panhard bar is for keeping the rear and or front axle from moving from side to side, not help body roll. I also know you need one in the front with a cross steering car to prevent bump steer.

[pooch]

Originally Posted by Binger

Right. my understanding is the panhard bar is for keeping the rear and or front axle from moving from side to side, not help body roll. I also know you need one in the front with a cross steering car to prevent bump steer.

Yes, if the panhard bar is setuo perfectly, it will stop bump steer.

But I think when Henry first added the panhard bar when cross steer arrived, he was adding it to stop the drag link pushing the whole front end across.

A Model A drag link pushes forward, not sideways, so until cross steer, the driver just put up with the wallowing , not knowing any better at the time,

[Synchro909]

Does anybody have a picture they can post of a panhard bar installed please?

[Simonpie]

Originally Posted by pooch

As long as you realise a panhard bar cures wallowing , NOT roll as has been suggested here.

A sway bar is for roll.

I'm going to disagree on this one. The roll center on a torque tube rear end runs at the height of the universal joint. The roll center with a Panhard bar is where a line directly up from the axle crosses a line from the center of the u-joint to the center of the Panhard bar. Basically, this is right at the height of the Panhard bar, a good 6 inches above the u-joint. The closer the roll center is the the CG, the lower the roll. 6 inches is a pretty good improvement.

[Purdy Swoft]

The backend can rock side to side on the rear spring shackles . The panhard bar holds the rear axle steady on sharp turns

[pooch]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

The backend can rock side to side on the rear spring shackles . The panhard bar holds the rear axle steady on sharp turns

Not really, more like the body/chassis/spring can rock side to side on the backend.

[updraught]

" ... The roll center on a torque tube rear end runs at the height of the universal joint."

That's up near the gearbox and chassis rail.

"The roll center with a Panhard bar is where a line directly up from the axle crosses a line from the center of the u-joint to the center of the Panhard bar. Basically, this is right at the height of the Panhard bar, a good 6 inches above the u-joint. The closer the roll center is the the CG, the lower the roll. 6 inches is a pretty good improvement."

That's half way between the diff and chassis rail?

The center of gravity will be higher for a sedan than say a speedster.

[Simonpie]

Originally Posted by updraught

" ... The roll center on a torque tube rear end runs at the height of the universal joint."

That's up near the gearbox and chassis rail.

"The roll center with a Panhard bar is where a line directly up from the axle crosses a line from the center of the u-joint to the center of the Panhard bar. Basically, this is right at the height of the Panhard bar, a good 6 inches above the u-joint. The closer the roll center is the the CG, the lower the roll. 6 inches is a pretty good improvement."

That's half way between the diff and chassis rail?

The center of gravity will be higher for a sedan than say a speedster.

You're right. That 6 inch estimate may be quite a way off. I may need to crawl underneath and look around.

[Y-Blockhead]

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Originally Posted by Synchro909

Does anybody have a picture they can post of a panhard bar installed please?

Synchro, I gave it my best 'shot'. Hard to get a good picture as it is above the rear axle. This picture is looking toward the rear of my car.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Simonpie

I'm going to disagree on this one. The roll center on a torque tube rear end runs at the height of the universal joint. The roll center with a Panhard bar is where a line directly up from the axle crosses a line from the center of the u-joint to the center of the Panhard bar. Basically, this is right at the height of the Panhard bar, a good 6 inches above the u-joint. The closer the roll center is the the CG, the lower the roll. 6 inches is a pretty good improvement.

Hey Simon,
Thanks for sharing drawing !
Is there a set distance/location on the right frame rail where the bar attachment is shown ? Or, can it be randomly placed in the general vicinity shown In drawing ? Is the length of bar set, as made and sold by vendors,
or is a longer bar better ??

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Synchro, I gave it my best 'shot'. Hard to get a good picture as it is above the rear axle. This picture is looking toward the rear of my car.

What picture ?

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

What picture ?

Can't see it? I see it... I can even see it in your post. If you can't see it go to my picture album.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/album.php?albumid=3320

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/pictu...ictureid=39757

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Is there a set distance/location on the right frame rail where the bar attachment is shown ?

Hardtimes, that drawing is Bass Ackwards. The Panhard bar available form the vendors mounts to the LR shock mount and the center section of the rear axle.

[Y-Blockhead]

Picture where it mounts to left rear shock.



And center section.

[pooch]

Dunno about the aftermarket Model A panhard bars, but as to a general bar, the longer the betterr so to minimise arc length change movement.

And the bar should be up hill to chassis a bit ( in height elevation) at normal riding height loaded, so its working life going over bumps is in the best arc.

[Synchro909]

Thanks for your efforts, Y Blockhead but I can't get to see anything on the album either - never have on this forum. Don't know whether it's something I should do here or something should be done behind the scenes.
Does anybody else either have a picture or have a suggestion as to how Y might be able to load the pictures?

[updraught]

[QUOTE=Y-Blockhead;1593356]Can't see it? I see it... I can even see it in your post. If you can't see it go to my picture album.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/album.php?albumid=3320

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/pictu...ictureid=39757


The first link gives:

"Invalid Album specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"

The second is blank.

In your public profile there is only statistics and contact info. Nothing else.
Other users I checked look OK.

Maybe check your "profile privacy"?

[pooch]

Same here, Y Blockheads album and pic are dead to me too.

Maybe it is this new server Ryan has, has stuffed things up?

[Y-Blockhead]

Well sorry guys. I never had this problem before. Maybe it has something to do with the Ford Barn server upgrade?

Sooo, let us try Flickr... Please let me know if this works. I can see all the other pictures I posted just fine.

[SSsssteamer]

I followed this Panhard post from the beginning. Having driven our 1929 Tudor for 50 years, at 45+ mph on the country roads, the Tudor can be a real challenge to keep it on our side of the road. It always dips and dives all over the place. It has all new spring shackles, shock absorbers and the tudor is in great shape. I ordered the Panhard from Snyders (on line) on Sunday and I received it on Wednesday by USPS. Cost plus shipping came to about $150. It took about 30 minutes to install and then I test drove our Tudor. I just got back from driving on the same country roads. The Tudor showed about a 90% improvement on the dipping and diving. Body roll was greatly reduced too. It was money well spent.

[updraught]

>>Sooo, let us try Flickr... Please let me know if this works. I can see all the other pictures I posted just fine.

Pictures are coming thru load and clear Houston.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by updraught

>>Sooo, let us try Flickr... Please let me know if this works. I can see all the other pictures I posted just fine.

Pictures are coming thru load and clear Houston.

Not sure how clear but...

This one shows how it is mounted to the LR Shock


and this one shows the rear axle center section
r

Sorry they are not clearer, hard to take pictures laying on my back...

[pooch]

So it is only a half panhard bar.

Not as good as a long one but better than nothing.

I sometimes wondered if the side it was anchored to chassis mattered re RHD and LHD cars. .

The RHD OZ car I copied mine from was anchored on left as well.

[Synchro909]

Thanks for the pics - clear enough for me.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Can't see it? I see it... I can even see it in your post. If you can't see it go to my picture album.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/album.php?albumid=3320

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/pictu...ictureid=39757



Hardtimes, that drawing is Bass Ackwards. The Panhard bar available form the vendors mounts to the LR shock mount and the center section of the rear axle.

Thanks for explaining the 'bassackwards' thingy !
Nice clear pictures too. Thanks for sharing.
Now , my question is...is there any welding/fabbing to do or have 'they done that...and it's a bolt in job ?

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by pooch

Dunno about the aftermarket Model A panhard bars, but as to a general bar, the longer the betterr so to minimise arc length change movement.

And the bar should be up hill to chassis a bit ( in height elevation) at normal riding height loaded, so its working life going over bumps is in the best arc.

Ok , but I suppose that the aftermarket bar available is made to length that is dictated by model a construction ? Otherwise, how and where would you fasten a longer bar ?

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by SSsssteamer

I followed this Panhard post from the beginning. Having driven our 1929 Tudor for 50 years, at 45+ mph on the country roads, the Tudor can be a real challenge to keep it on our side of the road. It always dips and dives all over the place. It has all new spring shackles, shock absorbers and the tudor is in great shape. I ordered the Panhard from Snyders (on line) on Sunday and I received it on Wednesday by USPS. Cost plus shipping came to about $150. It took about 30 minutes to install and then I test drove our Tudor. I just got back from driving on the same country roads. The Tudor showed about a 90% improvement on the dipping and diving. Body roll was greatly reduced too. It was money well spent.

A good practical application testimonial...thanks for sharing this info !

[Floats]

Hardtimes,
The longer the bar the better, but the diff pumpkin gets in the way. Go back up to the sketch and see a longer bar sits at an angle in order to clear the diff.
As I see it, the longer the better, the bar should go from the chassis frame, all the way as far as possible and as close to the opposite wheel.
It should be as level and perpendicular to the frame and parallel to the axle.
However, this is not always possible and the Model A is not a racing car, and therefor a ‘half’ panhard will work just fine.
You could off course go for a full bar with a kink to clear the diff.
Regards
Chris

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Now , my question is...is there any welding/fabbing to do or have 'they done that...and it's a bolt in job ?

It is all bolt in. It bolts to the center section of the rear axle and uses the same holes that bolt on the LR Shock. There is a hole already in the frame for the third bolt.

[pooch]

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Originally Posted by hardtimes

Ok , but I suppose that the aftermarket bar available is made to length that is dictated by model a construction ? Otherwise, how and where would you fasten a longer bar ?

The bar shown to a Model Purist/restorer who only wishes to improve his old jalopy a bit and be reversible is quite OK.

A panhard bar does not control roll, but to a Model A driver, when one is fitted, and the body does not feel like it will tip over as it wallows on every corner , he thinks it does, so this is fine .

Go the hotrodders here ........

The ideal place for a panhard bar would be from the chassis right across to the other side brake backing plate at a slight uphill angle to the chassis anchor.

[California Travieso]

People seem to be obsessed with the difference between body "roll" and "wallow". If it makes the car drive better for someone what difference does it make?

David Serrano

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by California Travieso

People seem to be obsessed with the difference between body "roll" and "wallow". If it makes the car drive better for someone what difference does it make?

David Serrano

Can't speak for anyone else but it is because I'm anal-retentive... My Household CEO is always asking me "Why are you so ANAL about everything?"

[Dave in MN]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Can't speak for anyone else but it is because I'm anal-retentive... My Household CEO is always asking me "Why are you so ANAL about everything?"

And your answer to her question is? Just asking...It would help to know!

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by California Travieso

People seem to be obsessed with the difference between body "roll" and "wallow". If it makes the car drive better for someone what difference does it make?

David Serrano

Ain't it the truth !

[updraught]

A sway or anti roll bar looks like this:




https://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.a...rks_suspension

[pooch]

Originally Posted by updraught

A sway or anti roll bar looks like this:




https://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.a...rks_suspension

Save yer breath, some here don't care about the engineering factor.

[Purdy Swoft]

I care about what actually works . I can speak for what works for me . I really don't care what anybody else thinks or does !!!

[SSsssteamer]

On Sunday we put the Panhard bar to the real test. With our 1929 Model A Tudor, we went on a Valentines Skagit Old Car Club tour that also had a breakfast included in the stops. With the recently installed Panhard Bar, I went around several round-abouts racing as fast as I dare and there was NO BODY ROLL while turning to the left. The round-abouts are well crowned for drainage and usually our Tudor had severe body roll on them. Body roll on round-abouts? Not any more. Oh, yes, we had snow when we first left our home. The main roads were clear though. Now I have to find a round-about that turns to the right.

[California Travieso]

Originally Posted by SSsssteamer

On Sunday we put the Panhard bar to the real test. With our 1929 Model A Tudor, we went on a Valentines Skagit Old Car Club tour that also had a breakfast included in the stops. With the recently installed Panhard Bar, I went around several round-abouts racing as fast as I dare and there was NO BODY ROLL while turning to the left. The round-abouts are well crowned for drainage and usually our Tudor had severe body roll on them. Body roll on round-abouts? Not any more. Oh, yes, we had snow when we first left our home. The main roads were clear though. Now I have to find a round-about that turns to the right.

Ssssssteamer,

That's great that you experimented with it for yourself.

With respect to "roundabouts that turn right" I believe you will have to go to England or Down Under for that! Maybe Japan, I think they drive on the wrong side of the road too.

David Serrano

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by SSsssteamer

On Sunday we put the Panhard bar to the real test. With our 1929 Model A Tudor, we went on a Valentines Skagit Old Car Club tour that also had a breakfast included in the stops. With the recently installed Panhard Bar, I went around several round-abouts racing as fast as I dare and there was NO BODY ROLL while turning to the left. The round-abouts are well crowned for drainage and usually our Tudor had severe body roll on them. Body roll on round-abouts? Not any more. Oh, yes, we had snow when we first left our home. The main roads were clear though. Now I have to find a round-about that turns to the right.

Beautiful picture ! Post card perfect, thanks for sharing !

[Synchro909]

I'm wondering if it would be possible to put a Panhard Bar from a bracket mounted to one side of the rear axle using the bolts at the brake backing plate, past the back of the diff and to a bracket on the back of the chassis. That would be better than the 1/2 length bar shown if it is possible. The brackets would have to be long enough to clear the diff and the longer they are, the weaker they are.
Would the improvement over the 1/2 length bar be enough to justify the work???

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

I'm wondering if it would be possible to put a Panhard Bar from a bracket mounted to one side of the rear axle using the bolts at the brake backing plate, past the back of the diff and to a bracket on the back of the chassis. That would be better than the 1/2 length bar shown if it is possible. The brackets would have to be long enough to clear the diff and the longer they are, the weaker they are.
Would the improvement over the 1/2 length bar be enough to justify the work???

Not saying it won't work, but I don't think there is enough room behind the axle with the spring and all there to do as you propose. The bumper brackets are in that area also. If you look at my pictures you will notice that my Panhard Bar is actually in front of the spring.

I don't know if the Model A suspension travel is enough to make a difference either.

Looks like something for your next project...

[SSsssteamer]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

I'm wondering if it would be possible to put a Panhard Bar from a bracket mounted to one side of the rear axle using the bolts at the brake backing plate, past the back of the diff and to a bracket on the back of the chassis. That would be better than the 1/2 length bar shown if it is possible. The brackets would have to be long enough to clear the diff and the longer they are, the weaker they are.
Would the improvement over the 1/2 length bar be enough to justify the work???

The Panhard bar in length is actually over half the distance between the frame rails. The mount on the rear axle pivots from the opposite side of the axle's center housing giving you well over half the width of the frame in the bar's length. The bar works very well and no more improvement is needed that I can tell.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by SSsssteamer

The Panhard bar in length is actually over half the distance between the frame rails. The mount on the rear axle pivots from the opposite side of the axle's center housing giving you well over half the width of the frame in the bar's length. The bar works very well and no more improvement is needed that I can tell.

I agree. I am very happy with the Panhard Bar on my '30 Town Sedan. Been on ~2 years now.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

I agree. I am very happy with the Panhard Bar on my '30 Town Sedan. Been on ~2 years now.

You better be right, my friend, about being happy, as you convinced me !
Just ordered from Snyders (..insert yellow face) !

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Not saying it won't work, but I don't think there is enough room behind the axle with the spring and all there to do as you propose. The bumper brackets are in that area also. If you look at my pictures you will notice that my Panhard Bar is actually in front of the spring.

I don't know if the Model A suspension travel is enough to make a difference either.

Looks like something for your next project...

Yeh, I was concerned about going behind the diff. Other responses suggest that the result would not be worth the effort.
For my next project, I think I'll make one that attaches to the diff as shown above. Thanks, all.

[pooch]

You could easily design a watts linkage attached to the diff and both side rails and in front of the diff out of sight.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

I agree. I am very happy with the Panhard Bar on my '30 Town Sedan. Been on ~2 years now.

Ok, I've done the 'job' and have a couple questions for YOU (yellow face) !
The (Snyder) instruction sheet says....'THERE IS A HOLE IN THE BOTTOM OF THIS FRAME BRACKET THAT ALIGNS WITH THE HOLE IN THE BOTTOM OF THE FRAME RAIL'.
My first question to you is...what did you do when you came to this ? My frame has NO hole (on either side of frame) ? Does you frame have such hole ?
FYI..I called Snyder's and spoke of their instructions and my 'no hole' situation. I do not want to have to drill any hole(s) in frame...unless necessary for INTEGRITY of strength of mounting bracket !


Second question: the 'BAR' hits/touches (where it crosses) the mount that you attach to the differential case. In your case/opinion is that a problem ?


The third 'situation' that I ran into and had to solve, involved my alum QC rear. Since this won't apply to most, I won't go into that.


BTW..Snyder's acknowledged some suggestions for improvement of their 'Panard'(sic) Bar kit, including checking out the HOLE situation, and make instruction sheet adjustments accordingly. Nice people/nice panhard bar kit...thanks Joe (grinning face here) !

[denniskliesen]

hardtimes, I installed mine and had no problems with clearance. Yes, I had to drill the hole in the bottom of the frame, but I couldn't see how a little grade 5 5/16" bolt could hold up so I drilled mine and put in a grade 8. In fact I used all grade 8 bolts. Oh and BTW, the center section turned out great! Thanks again for helping me out with that.

[Smog Tech]

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Denniskliesen: I see that you have washers under the bolt heads on the diff. The 3/8 SAE flat washers in the kit go between the bracket and the axle housing. If you have washers in both places, that should be fine.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Ok, I've done the 'job' and have a couple questions for YOU (yellow face) !
The (Snyder) instruction sheet says....'THERE IS A HOLE IN THE BOTTOM OF THIS FRAME BRACKET THAT ALIGNS WITH THE HOLE IN THE BOTTOM OF THE FRAME RAIL'.
My first question to you is...what did you do when you came to this ? My frame has NO hole (on either side of frame) ? Does you frame have such hole ?
FYI..I called Snyder's and spoke of their instructions and my 'no hole' situation. I do not want to have to drill any hole(s) in frame...unless necessary for INTEGRITY of strength of mounting bracket !


Second question: the 'BAR' hits/touches (where it crosses) the mount that you attach to the differential case. In your case/opinion is that a problem ?

Hardtimes, I honestly don't remember drilling a hole in the frame. I probably did but don't remember. I can't imagine why there would be a hole in the frame there originally.

Second question? I just crawled under my car to check and there in no way the 'BAR' comes even close to hitting. I can stick my finger between the closest point between the bar and mount. After being on the car for ~2 years there is not a mark on it. While I was under there I checked all the bolts and they are all still tight. Could you add a washer to space it away from the mount?

[SSsssteamer]

The bolt hole in question was not found on my 1929 Tudor's frame rail either. So I mounted the bracket on the left frame rail under the shock absorber, as per the instructions, and then I drilled the hole in the frame using the bracket's hole as a template as where to drill. The whole Panhard Bar installation could be done in less than an hour.

[pooch]

Originally Posted by denniskliesen

hardtimes, I installed mine and had no problems with clearance. Yes, I had to drill the hole in the bottom of the frame, but I couldn't see how a little grade 5 5/16" bolt could hold up so I drilled mine and put in a grade 8. In fact I used all grade 8 bolts. Oh and BTW, the center section turned out great! Thanks again for helping me out with that.

Looks like a nice accessory.

To the average A driver it would certainly improve the feeling of rocking sideways on the shackles.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Hardtimes, I honestly don't remember drilling a hole in the frame. I probably did but don't remember. I can't imagine why there would be a hole in the frame there originally.

Second question? I just crawled under my car to check and there in no way the 'BAR' comes even close to hitting. I can stick my finger between the closest point between the bar and mount. After being on the car for ~2 years there is not a mark on it. While I was under there I checked all the bolts and they are all still tight. Could you add a washer to space it away from the mount?

Hey, enough of the guys responded here to show that there is NO hole and I also wondered, like some...why any such hole would to put there by Ford.


I will space the bar out as you suggest. I'd like to give you pictures, but something has just happened that I can not post pictures here, after doing so for many years, go figure ! Also, can't put smiley faces up any more..now that really hurts, eh (yellow face here) !!


I told suggested to Snyder's what I found lacking and what was good (fit/finish great) ! Their rep (Joe) said that he would get things printed correctly...if he found that what I said about 'no hole' is accurate. I ask if anyone there has ever installed one of these type equipment...(popping eyes face here) !


Thanks for your input/help. Tomorrow will do test run to evaluate if any difference noticed.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by denniskliesen

hardtimes, I installed mine and had no problems with clearance. Yes, I had to drill the hole in the bottom of the frame, but I couldn't see how a little grade 5 5/16" bolt could hold up so I drilled mine and put in a grade 8. In fact I used all grade 8 bolts. Oh and BTW, the center section turned out great! Thanks again for helping me out with that.

Hey Dennis,
Are you saying that you have already installed that rear that I supplied and that this is a picture of the housing ??


Wow, you are quick and it looks great !
BTW...You have installed the washers just like I did, AND just like the written instructions !


Yeah, I'll have to drill the 'HOLE' also (grade 8). I also had some minor hardware problems, but went to the junk coffee cans filled with junk fasteners. All went well after 4 hours. Hey, I'm old and slow remember !


One caveat. Ever hear of Murphy ? Well , this unit is very nice....but one 1/8" hole 'burr' stuck up and that's where I grabbed hold of the thing...whaah !

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

I'd like to give you pictures, but something has just happened that I can not post pictures here, after doing so for many years, go figure ! Also, can't put smiley faces up any more..now that really hurts, eh (yellow face here) !!

I'm having picture problems also, ever since the server upgrade?? The smileys seem to be working for me tho...

You out there Ryan??

[denniskliesen]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey Dennis,
Are you saying that you have already installed that rear that I supplied and that this is a picture of the housing ??


Wow, you are quick and it looks great !
BTW...You have installed the washers just like I did, AND just like the written instructions !


Yeah, I'll have to drill the 'HOLE' also (grade 8). I also had some minor hardware problems, but went to the junk coffee cans filled with junk fasteners. All went well after 4 hours. Hey, I'm old and slow remember !


One caveat. Ever hear of Murphy ? Well , this unit is very nice....but one 1/8" hole 'burr' stuck up and that's where I grabbed hold of the thing...whaah !

That's the one. The bearings didn't require a lot of shims so the width was near perfect and the pinion race was a good tight fit also. Btw I adjusted the for the length of the bolts on the sides of the center section to be the same as original bolts so they aren't too long or too short. I don't remember what the provided bolts were as I replaced everything in the kit to grade 8. No problem posting pictures, I just post them direct to this website from my computer.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by denniskliesen

That's the one. The bearings didn't require a lot of shims so the width was near perfect and the pinion race was a good tight fit also. Btw I adjusted the for the length of the bolts on the sides of the center section to be the same as original bolts so they aren't too long or too short. I don't remember what the provided bolts were as I replaced everything in the kit to grade 8. No problem posting pictures, I just post them direct to this website from my computer.

Hey Dennis,


Thanks for your help ! You young guys, hm. Probably have a lift too, eh ?
Yeah, I had to change out all of the center section bolts also. As you did for strength and length. My center section is a QC, which has coarse threads, not the fine as original. All is well , except my back from crawling under and out from under..umpteen times. No test run today, as can hardly move left leg..bummer !


Let us know how your testing goes.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by pooch

Looks like a nice accessory.

To the average A driver it would certainly improve the feeling of rocking sideways on the shackles.

Hey pooch,
Took a relatively short drive (rainy morning) in my roadster to test out if any noticeable improvement/change in car attitude/handling.


The car did feel different from its reactions when going over heavy bumps (railroad crossings) at speed. It also seemed to be more stable taking corners. But, a loonger run is planned soon to learn more. Twisty up/down 25 mile run should give better data.


What I wanted to ask of you, if you know, is that the 'bar' in this kit is ONLY about 3/4" diameter. Does that seem sufficiently thick to give long term wanted results, without bending ? Seems puny, but then it may have been calculated accordingly to the puny weight/HP of the model A, eh ? In other words, would a beefier bar be better or waste of material/time/money for this application ?

[pooch]

The thing about this accessory panhard bar, is if it breaks , the car will only revert to what it was before.

If it bends it would just pull the diff sideways a bit, no big drama.

3/4 inch dia is quite OK.

Some here have mentioned they don't like the word wallowing, but that is the term I use , if you were driving with tyres of 10 PSI around a corner.

The chassis would move in and out of the bend as it moves sideways on the sidewalls..

The rear moves out and you correct the steering then the rear moves back in and you over correct it agian, etc.

This is entirely different to body ROLL.

This is the feeling a panhard bar improves.

Not really much force on an A going around a corner.

What, maybe 1/10th of a G if you are lucky?

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by pooch

The thing about this accessory panhard bar, is if it breaks , the car will only revert to what it was before.

If it bends it would just pull the diff sideways a bit, no big drama.

3/4 inch dia is quite OK.

Some here have mentioned they don't like the word wallowing, but that is the term I use , if you were driving with tyres of 10 PSI around a corner.

The chassis would move in and out of the bend as it moves sideways on the sidewalls..

The rear moves out and you correct the steering then the rear moves back in and you over correct it agian, etc.

This is entirely different to body ROLL.

This is the feeling a panhard bar improves.

Not really much force on an A going around a corner.

What, maybe 1/10th of a G if you are lucky?

THANKS !
Good thoughts/explanation. I'm with you on the wallowing vs roll , and that is what my brief ride revealed to me ! Your thoughts explaining the sufficiency of the 3/4" diam bar , is good to know also !!
I'm the kind of guy who reasons...that if a 3/4" bar is good, that a 11/2" bar should be better. Guess I'll stop working on the bigger bar now(insert yellow face) !