Shifting trouble in a 29'

[iamskee]

Hello everyone,

I recently acquired my A and have been doing a lot of work on it. Heres a quick recap on the car:
All major mechanicals (engine, trans, differential, etc.) were professional restored by previous owner less than 10 years ago.

It is apparent the car went through a frame off restoration, the body has been painted, new wood throughout, new interior, currently on 12v etc.

The previous owner parked the car midway through this project when they were unfortunately left it. It sat for at least a few years in florida and I doubt it was driven much, if at all..

I purchased the car which at the time had not run in years and began to assess everything and then started to bring some life back into it. So far I have:

-installed a new starter drive since the bendix spring broke after a month
-cleaned the fuel tank/lines, got it running (had to install new condenser and points)
-changed oil, flushed radiator, filled all the 600w spots, greased
-adjusted the (mechanical) brakes which are still not perfect so maybe I can seek advice from that later
-finished wiring, as the final stages of the restoration from the previous owner had not been completed

The motor runs great now, but I am now wanting to start driving it since much of the other work is nearly finished, and up until this point I have not driven it much at all. Heres what happens: I press the clutch pedal, and theres a 50/50 chance the clutch works and I will be able to shift into 1st or reverse right away. If I cant, I can feel the shifter vibrate as I try and put it in gear with my foot on the clutch but I hate trying to force it, but I had to once to get it back to the garage. Once it was in gear it was fine, but again I was not always able to shift to second. I have never tried shifting to 3rd.

I have both volumes of Les Andrews as well as many other books and have done countless hours of research to get to where I am with the car, but I couldn't seem to find an answer for this specific problem.

Any advice is appreciated. I am a pretty mechanical and hands on person. Can take pics/video if anything would be helpful.

Thank you in advance, Andrew

[CWPASADENA]

Are you sure the clutch is fully releasing?

This may be as simple as adjusting the clutch.

Les Andrews has a procedure to adjust the clutch.

That is what I would start with.

Chris W.

[1955cj5]

After or while you adjust the clutch you can open the access panel in the top of the clutch housing and with a flashlight you will be able to see if the clutch disc stops turning when you depress the pedal....

If it doesn't stop turning you may be able to adjust it more or it might be that the pilot bearing is dragging...

This is my old AA transmission but the idea is the same...

Be careful not to drop anything in there.....!

[Benson]

Sounds like maybe the clutch release arm is cracked and is flexing ... not releasing clutch completely.

This has been a common failure for over 55 years that I am aware of ...

[Art Newland]

Welcome to the Barn, are you aware that the Model A transmission is non-synchronized beast that takes some special techniques to shift properly?

[Jim/GA]

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Andrew-
Welcome to the Barn! Welcome to the Model A Hobby!

Where are you located? Try to add that to your profile. you may have an experienced Model a person right up the road from you. you never know!

What kind of oil did you put in the transmission?

What would you guess is your idle RPM? This engine should be able to idle very slowly, once warmed up.

Once you step on the clutch, count to 3 before trying to put the transmission in gear.

I'm sure you will figure it out. Let us know what you find.

[Synchro909]

It may be that when the gearbox was attached to the motor, the pilot shaft didn't line up properly or the gearbox was allowed to drop, bending the clutch plate. If that is so, it will drag no matter how you play with the adjustment. Take the inspection cover off as suggested above and look at the clutch plate with the motor at an idle. Check to see that the plate doesn't appear to wobble back and forth between the flywheel and the pressure plate.
Also try selecting top gear first, then going straight to first. This gets the gears moving so they engage easier.

[Joe K]

I would go with the cracked/flexing clutch release shaft actuating arm for $24.95 plus shipping Alex.

Seems like a common failure now. I've heard of half a dozen since I've joined the Fordbarn community.

One source http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/clutch-shaft-arm

Joe K

[Big hammer]

Andrew Wecome to the barn!
Since it's a 50/50 grinding of gears, a nice slooow idle, 600w oil in the gear box, then check for mechanical's. 100 rpm to fast an idle will cause grinding of gears, if this doesn't help,you may be in for pulling the transmission and checking for a worn pilot bearing/bushing.
Wecome to the hobby! Enjoy!

[100IH]

Also. on the 1 to 2 shift, do it early and count to 3. All shifts should be done early without running up to higher RPM's. Thick 600 lube is a must.

[Dick M]

It will take two people to check for a cracked clutch release arm. You will probably not be able to see the crack in the clutch arm by just looking at it. Have someone depress the clutch pedal while you are looking at the clutch arm. You will see if it is cracked and spreading. I would check the arm first... It is an easy fix.

[daveymc29]

I had a very similar (I think) problem with my Coupe. I would shift it into 1st and drive off and shift into second and then third. All well and good on the flat. Give it ever so slight an incline and I got a lot of gear agains gear noise and it would reuse to move is 1st. @nd and third were okay. I greased the collar that carries the throughout bearing and it is a happy camper. Shifts like a dream and no gear noise. A friend on here told me to try that so I'm suggesting that you pull the access cover from the bell housing so you can see the throughout bearing and grease it, the carrier, before you do anything else.

[iamskee]

Wow thank you all for the replies! I will update my profile soon. I live in Tampa, Fl.

The engine idles seamlessly at very low RPM's, though I don't have an exact number. The 50/50 chance will get me into 1st or reverse and when I am in one of those, I can easily shift into the other one with no resistance.. Yesterday I took it around the block and stopped and started shifting into 2nd and 3rd. The clutch worked this time but I can tell you that moving from 2 to 3 seemed like it was sticky/ it was slightly harder to move it just from 2-3 than from R-1. The shifter moved from 2-3 with no gears grinding, but it still seemed like sometign was causing me to use a little more pressure on the shifter to get it down and up. This was all done with my foot planted on the clutch and the car stationary. After I moved it down and up a dozen times trying to "loosen it up", and seems like it didnt, I drove the car around in second. Seems no better, maybe slightly. I will take it for a quick spin today and give an update. I will also take some photos of the transmission.

I never drained the trans oil, but I checked and it was still full (after 3-5years). Should I change that? I have plenty of 600w oil. I am hoping that just from sitting so long, it needs to be used a little and broken in. Again, though it has been a few years since being completely rebuilt, the car has very low miles on it.

Thank you again, will post update soon!
Andrew

[kwisor]

are you dubble clutching

[iamskee]

I am double clutching, and to answer another question I am not entire sure the clutch is disengaging. I am not sure if the pedal needs adjustement. Since it works "sometime" I would tend to think the pedal adjustment was fine...but who knows....

It appears I have two issues:
the first being issues disengaging clutch/inability to shift.

the second issues is with 2nd/3rd gear. When the clutch is working and I am able to shift into 2nd, its difficult to describe but there are no grinding gears, everything sounds normal, but there is resistance when trying to shift up and down between 2 and 3. I did it several times thinking I could loosen it up (since it sat for so long) and to some degree I think I was successful. But it is still sticky, as I would describe it.

I am attaching pictures.

[iamskee]

There is also a small disk that stops spinning if I lift the cluch pedal up. but if I dont touch the pedal, that small disk in front keeps spinning. See last photo. Not sure if this is normal/ok?

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by iamskee

I am double clutching, and to answer another question I am not entire sure the clutch is disengaging. I am not sure if the pedal needs adjustement. Since it works "sometime" I would tend to think the pedal adjustment was fine...but who knows....

It appears I have two issues:
the first being issues disengaging clutch/inability to shift.

the second issues is with 2nd/3rd gear. When the clutch is working and I am able to shift into 2nd, its difficult to describe but there are no grinding gears, everything sounds normal, but there is resistance when trying to shift up and down between 2 and 3. I did it several times thinking I could loosen it up (since it sat for so long) and to some degree I think I was successful. But it is still sticky, as I would describe it.

I am attaching pictures.

How much free play do you have now? Should be about 3/4".

Bob

[iamskee]

Is there any way to upload videos? I took a few short videos today but I cant find a way to attach them.

[iamskee]

Originally Posted by Bob C

How much free play do you have now? Should be about 3/4".

Bob

Define free play please?

[1955cj5]

the small disc is the throwout bearing. Normally when your foot is off the clutch pedal and the engine is running the bearing would not be spinning.

From your description of the clutch sometimes working and sometimes not, I would look at the release lever as mentioned above, as they break now and then, and also the lubrication of the throwout bearing carrier..it is what the bearing is mounted on, and there is a lube fitting on it..this was also mentioned above.

You will need a grease gun with chassis grease and probably a needle fitting for the grease gun.

You might also spray some penetrating lube on the clutch release shaft from the outside of the housing, on both sides as it goes clear through the clutch housing....

Wrong computer or I would post pictures....

[Art Newland]

Originally Posted by iamskee

Is there any way to upload videos? I took a few short videos today but I cant find a way to attach them.

You can put them on YouTube or Vimeo and then link them here

[iamskee]

Thanks for the reply 55. Ok then the throwout bearing does NOT stop spinning when I take my foot off the clutch. I have to pick the pedal up abojt 1/2" for it to stop spinning. I took a video of this but can't find a way to upload it yet.

Where is the release lever located?

I saw the grease fitting and will grease it tomorrow.

I will spray some penetrating on the clutch tonight. Thanks for the tips.

[Big hammer]

While you have the grease gun out, grease the pedals from under your car. please don't put any oil on the clutch or flywheel ! The through out bearing hub is where you can use some oil. It moves forward when you push the clutch pedal down, it is what the spring is attached to. Push the pedal down and use some oil the shaft it slides on!

[1955cj5]

Release lever or arm....

The one I had was repaired years ago..I replaced it...

[1955cj5]

No don't spray anything on the clutch itself....

just on the bushings where the clutch shaft goes through the clutch housing...and from the outside, not inside. Oil and grease on the clutch disc itself might ruin it...

These pictures show the shaft running through the clutch housing.


When you push on the clutch pedal, the shaft rotates and the forks push the throwout bearing and carrier forward, releasing the clutch...

Beautiful car you have there!

[iamskee]

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HMMM I am beginning to wonder if the pedal just needs to be adjusted. Is there a measurement for the length the adjusting rod to the clutch pedal should be? Or how does one know how long/short to make it?

[J Franklin]

You want 1" free play in the pedal, it may need adjustment but I suspect weak or broken springs.

[cpf240]

By 'free play', it is generally meant how much travel of the pedal before the throwout bearing starts to engage the clutch pressure plate fingers. At least that is what it means to me... :-)

[Beauford]

I went through this...adjust clutch pedal thus adjusting throwout. It needs to be able to spin by hand (throwout) when engine off and grasping it through inspection plate.

[J Franklin]

In the model a you can see the action of the throw-out bearing with the inspection plate removed. Yes cpf240 that is how I see it. 1" minimum.

[iamskee]

Ok, but I don't understand how lengthening or shortening the clutch pedal will make a difference on free play OR the throwout bearing. Lengthening the pedal simply adjusts where the actual pedal is located... right?

[iamskee]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

You want 1" free play in the pedal, it may need adjustment but I suspect weak or broken springs.

How/where would I check for a weak or broken spring?

[1955cj5]

Originally Posted by iamskee

Ok, but I don't understand how lengthening or shortening the clutch pedal will make a difference on free play OR the throwout bearing. Lengthening the pedal simply adjusts where the actual pedal is located... right?

Adjusting the clutch means adjusting the clevis rod in the clutch trunion nut on the pedal..Look at Les Andrews section 2 page 8.



The movement of the clutch pedal is limited by this collar(see picture) on the end of the pedal shaft.

When the pedal is fully released/up or your foot is not on the pedal it should rest against this collar. If it does not something is binding or sticking, or that small spring on the top of the throwout bearing carrier is either the wrong spring or it has been stretched.

Adjusting the clutch per Les Andrews section 2 page 8 moves the throwout bearing either closer to the pressure plate or further from as necessary with the clutch pedal fully up.

There are drawings in the book to help you....look at the section for pedals, 1-231 or the clutch 1-65

Stick with it you will get it figured out...

Here is a picture of the collar on the end of the pedal shaft..

[J Franklin]

There is the spring on the throwout bearing collar that pulls the throwout away from the pressure plate. It needs be strong enough to return the parts.

[Big hammer]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

There is the spring on the throwout bearing collar that pulls the throwout away from the pressure plate. It needs be strong enough to return the parts.

In the op's picture post, the bearing/hub is forward and the spring is stretched out. I believe his car has been sitting for awhile, i feel the bearing/hub is sticking on the transmission front bearing retainer. I would try some oil there with the pedal pushed down, greasing the grease fittings and some oil on the transmission bearing retainer along with oil on the pedal linkages will help.

[daveymc29]

#35 This is all that I ever found wrong with my coupe. It just wasn't really going into first gear. The teeth would mesh a bit and the car would move on level ground but given an incline I had complaints from the tranny and the car would stop moving. I shoved the lever up into second and drove up the slight incline. Brentwood Bob on this forum told me to grease the carrier which I did and the car works beautifully, hill starts and onto and off a trailer.

[iamskee]

Thank you for the tips! So because some others have warned about oil/grease in this area I really don't want to mess things up so to be sure I should:

-Grease gun the fitting just behind the pressure plate
-Press the clutch pedal, which slides the pressure plate back and put a couple drops of oil. (Like spray-penetrating oil? Motor Oil? 600w?)

Big Hammer mentions "bearing retainer" and davey mentions greasing the "carrier", did I cover those in the list above, or are these something else?

Thank you again for your help, Andrew

[Big hammer]

Andrew any light oil would work! Just don't spray on or near pressure plate clutch flywheel area. The carrier or what I said about the bearing retainer I think are one in the same. You will need to move the pedal in and out to work the oil in. Keep us update :-)

[Bob C]

This is the bearing retainer.

Bob

[Jacksonlll]

Sure sounds like the pilot brg is dragging. I dont think you can get to it to get a little oil in there. If you took the pressure plate loose, could you slide it and the disk rearward and oil the brg?????

[iamskee]

3 short videos, sorry for the late add...

https://vimeo.com/216339201

https://vimeo.com/216339178

https://vimeo.com/216339149

[iamskee]

If you click on the Vimeo, and open the video there, there are comments I made. I didn't know it wouldn't show up here.

[Brian in Wheeling]

you need to adjust your clutch.
Brian

[RawhideKid]

You seriously need to adjust your clutch!

I would start by backing off the adjustment of the pedal to get the throw out bearing away from the pressure plate fingers, then make a depth tool with a 5/8 step, then adjust all the fingers out to meet it, then readjust the pedal to just touch the fingers at 1" pedal travel.

That will get you at the point you need.

[J Franklin]

Replace the spring on the throwout collar. You can see it is not returning the collar and pedal

[RonC]

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As was mentioned replace the throw out bearing sleeve spring. There is a grease fitting on the top of the sleeve. You can add a little grease one or two shots. Do not put or spray any thing else inside the inspection area that has any lubricant properties. Make sure your clutch is adjusted properly. Drive the car around it has been sitting and your clutch disk may be sticking on the transmission shaft.

[Jacksonlll]

All this talk about getting the t/o brg rearward has nothing to do with a dragging clutch. You need to move the brg more forward to see if that reduces the drag. Easy to do and will tell you a lot.

[100IH]

It may be difficult to replace the return spring through the inspection hole. When you order the spring, get 2 just in-case the first one gets stretched out or damaged. At that point, you will be removing the rear axle and the transmission. With the trans out, you can replace the spring and your in a good position to inspect the: 1. flywheel housing alignment, 2. flywheel surface, 3. clutch levers and springs, including the adjustments on the levers when mounted to the flywheel off the car, 4. finally, the clutch disk itself. It's called covering all the bases so as not to have to do any of it twice. Don't despair yet, Slow down the idle some more, retard the spark some, take a sample of the gearbox lube, it should be almost like honey.

[Big hammer]

I second the too fast of an idle !

[J Franklin]

The bearing needs to move rearward to keep it from wearing out prematurely and to facilitate adjusting the clutch to release the disk when the pedal is depressed. I think with care the spring can be replaced with the trans in the car. You may want to tie a string around it in case it should drop.

[iamskee]

Thank you all for the replies. The current issue is not the clutch, not the adjustment and not the idle. The issue is the retraction of the bearing. I greased the "slider bearing/hub" from the grease fitting. I worked the pedal many times and it still did not return to a position where the hub stops spinning. I had the car idle the whole time. I pressed the pedal all the way to reveal the shaft it slides on and put some oil there. Again, I worked the pedal and still the pedal/bearing unit does not retract enough to stop the bearing from spinning

I checked the strength of the spring and it seems pretty tight, enough that it should
be able to retract everything. Is there another test I can do before replacing the spring (or anything else for that matter)? I was thinking about unhooking the spring to release all tension from the hub and then try to move the bug back and fourth, working it without the spring tension.

Thoughts? Thank you again, I really appreciate your detailed answers.

[Art Newland]

Does it stop spinning if you pull the pedal back with your fingers?

[iamskee]

Yes it stops spinning. Just pulling the pedal back with a slight touch stops the bearing.

[iamskee]

I should note I added 4 pumps of grease. I didn't want to add too much. Maybe I didn't add enough? It still feels like there is too much friction between the shaft and the slider, but I wouldn't know for sure with the spring tension.

[Jim/GA]

Temporarily disconnect the clutch pedal clevis from the clutch release arm to see if you can isolate where the binding is. It might be the pedal or clevis that are binding.

4 pumps of grease is way too much.

[iamskee]

Thanks, Jim. I have a small grease gun so it's not as much as a full size one. I disconnected the clutch pedal earlier and the pedal was able to move freely with no binding.

[Jim/GA]

Originally Posted by iamskee

Thanks, Jim. I have a small grease gun so it's not as much as a full size one. I disconnected the clutch pedal earlier and the pedal was able to move freely with no binding.

OK, then carefully (do not drop it) replace the return spring with a new one that is (hopefully) stronger and not stretched out.

[Tom Wesenberg]

If you still have the shift tower removed, just clamp it in a vice and shift through the gears.
If it shifts good, then the problem is elsewhere.

[iamskee]

Ok thanks Jim. I Will order a new spring today. Will keep posted.

Tom, I am able to shift fine. The issue is the the bearing and hub are not retracting on the shaft. I didn't think it could be the spring becuass it's nearly new... but at this point I'm not sure what else could be causing it to bind and not retract back.

[Tom Wesenberg]

The AA uses a shorter hub for the throw out bearing, so hopefully you have the correct longer one for cars.

Maybe someone has pictures to compare the two different hubs.

[1955cj5]

Here are the two carriers....

The short one is for the AA truck

I think if he had an AA carrier in there it would not work at all...you'd have a couple inches between the throwout bearing and the pressure plate

[iamskee]

We'll seeing as I am able to retract it manually by pulling the pedal pack, isn't it safe to assume everything is correct? If it was shorter/longer it wouldn't retract when I pulled the pedal back. I am going to take the spring off and see if I can do anything to loosen it without the resistance of the spring.

[Benson]

ADDED 05-16-17 7.45 PM
i agree with post #7. I missed this post until just now.



I think that the clutch disk might have been bent during installation and is dragging against the two halves of the pressure plate.

Notice in video # 2 for the 5 seconds between 10 and 15 seconds he is able to shift several times between R and 1st

and then in video 3 He does same thing with 2 and 3rd gear ... once he gets it into one of gears ONLY IF he shifts fast enough.

If he shifts too slow it is back to grinding again.

That is what I see.

Maybe there is rust on pressure plate or it is bent and that is preventing the disk from stopping when pedal is depressed all of the way.

1. I would turn off the engine.

2. Put transmission in 1st gear.

3. depress clutch all the way leaving trans in gear.

4. Start the engine and SLOWLY engage the clutch part way, then push pedal down repeatedly while engine turns.

The idea is to wear off the rust on pressure plate if there is any.

OR if plate is bent wear off the HIGH spots on the clutch disk to allow clutch disk to stop turning so you can get the trans into gear.

Do not do this for too long ... you do not want to overheat the clutch disk.


Note: Edited several lines --- re-read the post please.

[J Franklin]

Make sure to oil the shaft that moves the throwout collar and also note that this spring is fully retracted as yours needs to be.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I see the above picture is of a AA bellhousing and TO bearing, in case anyone is wondering why it looks different. You can also see the 6 mounting bolts of the heavy 4 speed tranny.

[iamskee]

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Ok I will oil it. Is there anything wrong with shooting some PB Blaster/wd-40 on the shaft if I am carefull not to get it anywhere else? Or should I strictly stick to some sort of oil (if so, what oil is preferred?)

[iamskee]

PS you guys are awesome...!

[1955cj5]

Based on your previous pictures I'd say you have the correct throwout bearing carrier....

Here is a different view of the AA carrier...it's really short!


I would spray some lube from the outside of the clutch housing, onto to the bushings on both sides, where the clutch shaft rides...

and while your at it, spray a little on the clutch pedal where it rides on the upper shaft...

[1955cj5]

Here are the two places I'd lube the shaft from outside the clutch housing.

For now PB Blaster will be fine if that is all you have..you should learn pretty quickly if it helps any. Later you may want some LPS Lube Spray or similar..

The spot with the clutch lever is directly below the pedals.

The other spot to lube is on the opposite side of the clutch housing, under the passenger's feet....

[iamskee]

1955 thank ou for the pictures. So as I wrote a few days ago, I used a grease gun on the fitting and as suggested I just used some penetrating oil on both places 1955 suggested. Results are the same. . Here are a couple pics of the same spots 1955 took, but on my car, as well as a short video I just took AFTER I sprayed the penetrating oil.


He last few seconds of the video show the bearing move forward when I press the pedal and release the pedal. THEN I do the same as the previous two times and lifted the pedal up. I just thought I should say this since you can't see my foot in the last shot.


https://vimeo.com/217745847?ref=em-v-share

[Tom Wesenberg]

It looks like you are pulling the clutch pedal back much more than it should be able to come back. Your clutch stop is likely worn quite a bit. When the floorboards are in place, they should also keep the pedal from coming so far back.

[1955cj5]

In the second picture in post #70 it looks like your clutch release arm is bent, right at the end where it connects to the adjusting arm yoke ....is it bent or is that just the picture angle?

The release arm should look like the one in the picture.

[Bob C]

I went back and glanced at your posts and I don't see where you ever measured your
free play. Pull the pedal all the way back till it hits the stop and them measure how much travel you have in the pedal till the throw out bearing just touches the clutch fingers.

Bob

[denniskliesen]

What about the collar up on the pedal shaft? I've seen quite a few of those showing a lot of wear, might be part of the problem.

https://www.brattons.com/clutch-and-...ft-collar.html

http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/br...l-shaft-collar

[Benson]

Originally Posted by 1955cj5

In the second picture in post #70 it looks like your clutch release arm is bent, right at the end where it connects to the adjusting arm yoke ....is it bent or is that just the picture angle?

The release arm should look like the one in the picture.

You are right it appears that someone heated the arm and bent it ...




Because the arm had to be bent, I think that fork that pushes throw out bearing has been installed in wrong position on the shaft and someone heated arm and bent it in order to get the Clevis installed.

Maybe fork was installed backwards or wrong fork was installed?

The angle of the arm in the photo is way off to have leverage and travel in order to disengage clutch.

Release Arm is not horizontal as it should be and as shown in # 72 ...

Maybe a homemade shaft was fashioned from a 3/4 inch steel bar or a second hole was drilled if shaft is correct one.

[iverson]

I know there are other clutch problems but a quick fix to bring the pedal back and save the thro out bearing is put a spring on the linkage from under the car

[Tom Wesenberg]

I'm not seeing a problem with the arm. The picture is being shot from above looking down, so it doesn't show the arm being horizontal, but it looks good to me.

[iamskee]

Sorry about the bad angle before. Here are a couple I just took. I *think* this is correct.

Now I plan on removing the spring and disconnecting the pedal clevis which should free up ALL resistance on the bearing. If spring is found to be inadequate I will order a new one. If all else fails I can iversons suggestion and just add an additional return spring under the pedal.

I know I am new to this and though it may seem simple, I am still hesitant and like to ask for help when in doubt. Thank you again.

[iamskee]

Little update. Removed the spring, it is held on by the black wire seen in the video. The hub does not move forward/backward with the pedal at rest, if that makes sense. If I pull the pedal all the way back the hub moves freely. I don't think the spring is bad but I sure hope there's a fix for this without removing everything as I do not have the means to. Anyone else experience this? It's almost as if the hub is stuck when too far forward and need the pedal to pull it back. The car was sitting for a while, but I doubt rust could have formed in just a small section causing it to bind when forward. Two videos, essentially the same think just different angle.

https://vimeo.com/217826898

https://vimeo.com/217827834

[iamskee]

A few weeks ago, before I knew about the Ford barn, and after reading Les Andrews book, I adjusted the clutch pedal travel. Today I measured and it had about 2" free play. I know, too much. I adjusted the rod and is now about 1 1/4 -1 1/2" free play. But here's the thing. After I adjusted the free play, I can no longer get the bearing to move forward/backward at all, like I did in the videos. I think this is because with the reduced free play, the more forward the hub is on the shaft. And since my issue seems to be stickiness at the front of the shaft, it is not allowing the hub to retract as it should.

[1955cj5]

Does the small return spring that you removed look like this one?

https://www.brattons.com/throw-out-bearing-spring.html

[iamskee]

I was worried when you asked this, but just checked, and it is! It is also 11 turns just like the one in the picture.

[Gunmetal blue2]

http://s737.photobucket.com/user/192...d9e72.jpg.html This is what my throw out bearing looks like. I have a 1929 AA.

[Gunmetal blue2]

So for all the dirt. this is mine http://s737.photobucket.com/user/192...1dc53.jpg.html

[iamskee]

Thanks, Gunmetal. It's great to see the inside, and it looks like they are the same!

[J Franklin]

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With the spring off does the collar move smoothly for and aft as it should? With the collar forward do the shafts turn freely in the bushings? Are there wear spots in the collar or fork faces that would impede the collars return? If all is right then you should not have this no return condition.

[1955cj5]

Originally Posted by Bob C

I went back and glanced at your posts and I don't see where you ever measured your
free play. Pull the pedal all the way back till it hits the stop and them measure how much travel you have in the pedal till the throw out bearing just touches the clutch fingers.

Bob

I think you need to follow Bob's advice and double check the free play.

Having the bearing and carrier retract fully is desirable, but has no effect on you ability to dis-engage the clutch.

The amount of free-play will directly affect the operation of your clutch, and your ability to shift smoothly....

[Bob C]

[QUOTE=iamskee;1473596]Little update. Removed the spring, it is held on by the black wire seen in the video. The hub does not move forward/backward with the pedal at rest, if that makes sense. If I pull the pedal all the way back the hub moves freely. I don't think the spring is bad but I sure hope there's a fix for this without removing everything as I do not have the means to. Anyone else experience this? It's almost as if the hub is stuck when too far forward and need the pedal to pull it back. The car was sitting for a while, but I doubt rust could have formed in just a small section causing it to bind when forward. Two videos, essentially the same think just different angle.

Pulling the pedal back will not pull the hub back. With the spring disconnected the hub should not come back if you pull the pedal back.

Bob

[iamskee]

1955 I did check the freeplay and adjusted for what should be an adequate setting for now but as I said after I adjusted it to have less free play, the hub will not retract even when I pull the pedal back. So I fear I will have to readjust it again.

Bob, as I wrote and seen in the video, the hub has no horizontal movement until I pull the pedal back with, or without the spring.

I understand the need to adjust the clutch and eventually I will get it zeroed in and perfect but the problem is that the hub does not want to retract on its own, with or without the spring(using my fingers to try to get it back doesn't work either) which causes the bearing to constantly spin.


I don't know what the interior connection from the pedal linkage to the hub looks like but I have a feeling that may be the issue. Why else when I pull the pedal back would the hub move freely? I don't think there is anspring strong enough that would pull the hub back. I also no longer believe it is due to corrosion on the shaft.

[1955cj5]

Here is a picture of a AA transmission clutch housing......same linkage as the A.

You can see the clutch shaft and the fork in the center.

There is no fixed mechanical connection between the fork and the throw out carrier..

The fork simply pushes on the carrier to disengage the clutch and then the pressure plate fingers and the small coil spring return it, the fork cannot pull the carrier back away from the pressure plate.

If you disconnect the clutch adjustment yoke from the actuating arm will the throwout carrier move all the way back? This takes the pedal out of the linkage....

[denniskliesen]

You might try removing the pin on your adjusting link, see if the lower release shaft is sticky when you move it by hand with the release bearing spring off. and while you have that link off your clutch pedal should move freely also. I'm wondering if there is binding when your link pins to the lower arm...

[iamskee]

Thank you for the replies. I have tried your suggestions this morning. I disconnected the pedal and had the same result. When the hub is forward, it get stuck. Move it 1/8" back (with help of the pedal) and it is free and movable by hand. IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE TO MOVE THE HUB REARWARD BY HAND. I had to reconnect the pedal and move that back.

I know this sounds crazy and I know it has been pointed out that there is no mechanical connection but when I pull the pedal rearward, the hub frees.

Not sure what it could be but I am almost to the point where I will just try to add another spring somewhere in the linkage.

[30 Tudor]

Is the cross shaft through the bell housing free when it is disconnected from everything?
It needs to be absolutely free.
How much horizontal play does it have.
You can tap on the shaft from the top with a dowel, or brass and a hammer and make sure the bushings have clearance. Wash them out with some W-D or something,make sure that nothing has gotten packed around the shaft and locked it. Knock around on the end of the shaft, it needs to be loose.
Everything has to be loose with no binding,,,make sure the adjustments are not binding.
Something is binding, dragging, rubbing, grinding, somewhere,,, start at the pedal, and follow the yellow brick road!

You will find it!

Take a mirror and look at the mating surfaces on the apply forks,,
maybe a groove worn, a lump. A thin diamond file could level it out enough to slide over the bump if that's going on.

[30 Tudor]

Does the shaft slide sideways against the side of the bearing housing locking it up until you pull it back, like a wedge,,
Is there plenty of clearance between the side of the bearing and the forks when the petal is depressed.

Do you owe any taxes?

[1955cj5]

There is a spring you can use on the pedal. It was meant for the '28s with a different style clutch and the AA truck but it works on the Model A pedal also

https://www.brattons.com/28-aa-clutch-pedal-spring.html

There is an extra long retaining pin that goes with it...you may have to call Brattons to get the part number....

Here are a couple of pictures...it's on the end of the clutch and brake pedal shaft

I think I used a long 1/4" carriage bolt drilled for a cotter pin to retain it...

[Jeff in BC]

Is the clutch release fork properly riveted to the cross shaft?
If it is loose or the holes are worn then the spring pressure may not be enough to allow the bearing to return.

Jeff

[iamskee]

30 Tudor, when I disconnect he pedal, the cross shaft if "free" but impossible for me to move in either direction by hand. Not even a little bit.

There is a almost no horizontal play in the cross shaft.

I am not quite sure what you meant by " Does the shaft slide sideways against the side of the bearing housing locking it up until you pull it back, like a wedge,,
Is there plenty of clearance between the side of the bearing and the forks when the petal is depressed."

BUT, once the hub is pushed forward, it is stuck there until I pull the pedal back. Once back, I can move the hub maybe 3/8" as seen in the videos. But as soon as I use the pedal to push the hub/bearing forward, they do not retract as they are getting hung up on something.

Plenty of clearance between the bearing and the forks when the pedal is depressed...hmm I don't know. Are the forks viewable through the inspection plate? I didn't see them but maybe I didn't look hard enough.

All taxes paid!


Now that I think I answered all of your questions I have a few:

What shaft, and does it matter where I tap on said shaft? What am I looking to accomplish...just to shake it loose? Or am I looking to remove bearings from somewhere?

I agree with you, something is binding but I am not familiar enough with this and it is such a small area to work in making it even more difficult.

[iamskee]

1955 - THANK YOU!!! I will do some research on this spring and see if I can make it work!!

[iamskee]

Jeff in BC, I wouldn't know the status on the fork as I cannot see it. Is it viewable from the inspection plate?

[30 Tudor]

Originally Posted by iamskee

30 Tudor, when I disconnect he pedal, the cross shaft if "free" but impossible for me to move in either direction by hand. Not even a little bit.

This needs to be free.
It needs to move easily by your little pinkie, with a vannila ice cream cone in the other hand. You forgot the ice cream!
You can hit the shaft through the inspection cover, you can see it on either side of the bearing running in the bottom of the bell housing running from side to side,, door to door.
Tap straight down on it,,,, on both sides of the bearing as far out as you can reach. You can also tap the shaft from side to side,,from the bottom,,,just be careful and do not flare the end of the shaft,,use a wooden dowel to hit the short end,(passengers side) then tap it back from the other side.(drivers side)
It shouldn't move very far, watch it and listen, you can tell by the sound when you have reached the end of any slack.
Have something to attach to the arm on the drivers side and move it back and forth, up and down,(short piece of pipe,, vise grips,ect.),spray with w-d,,,, tap,,,rotate,,,tap...spray rotate,,tap,,,rotate,,,spray,,don't give up.
Just be careful and don't beat things up and leave gashes and dents everywhere, it is not necessary to tear things up.
What you are trying to do is to gain some clearance in the bushings and wash them out, they will loosen up. Some times carb cleaner helps but it is nasty and will remove paint, and it's flammable if it's any good.
You could shoot a bit inside the housing at the shaft where it goes into the housing.


Plenty of clearance between the bearing and the forks when the pedal is depressed...hmm I don't know. Are the forks viewable through the inspection plate? I didn't see them but maybe I didn't look hard enough.

The ends of the forks or the fingers are on either side of the throw out bearing,,they push the bearing forward.
Is there clearance on both sides of the forks to the bearing.

And when you slide the bearing away from the forks do the mating surfaces look smooth,,

This is probably all ok as you said the main shaft was tight.

Don't just add more springs with out fixing it,(loosen it up) though that is ok,springs are good ,you need to get the shaft freed up or it will come back and haunt you later,, and you don't want to mess with this in the middle of a nice trip in all of your clean clothes,,do we?




What shaft, and does it matter where I tap on said shaft? What am I looking to accomplish...just to shake it loose? Or am I looking to remove bearings
from somewhere?

Just shake it loose baby shake it loose!

I agree with you, something is binding but I am not familiar enough with this and it is such a small area to work in making it even more difficult.

Enjoy the adventure,,don't make me come to florida! , though I'd love too,
It snowed today, and my Tudor body is out in the cold!

[Bob C]

I checked a couple of bell housings I have and I can move the fork and shaft
like the one in 1955's picture with one finger. If you can't move yours freely then there is one of your problems.

Bob

[30 Tudor]

There is a shaft, a lever two bushings and a fork.
The shaft goes all the way through the lower bell housing,,it is binding in the bushings.

You can see the dowels going through the inspection hole and pointing to the shaft. It won't bend easily, you probably couldn't break it if you had to,
you can wack it pretty good, but don't gouge it up with steel chisels or pipes
it just ain't right. A two x two might work,,,it needs to be like silk,,,,,,,
You can do it!

[daveymc29]

My 29 roadster now has a Mitchell box with the 15% increase in first and second. It is quite a pleasure to drive. On the inclines there isn't much chance of losing RPM during a shift. With a 26% overdrive and 3:54 gears and 600 X 16 tires and having just replaced the modern tube shocks with Mr. Paul's rebuilds it is smooth. A F100 (1966) steering box and shorter pitman arm have reduced the pain in my arthritic hands while driving for any distance. All together it is quite pleasant to drive now and the wife could drive it home if I can't.

[J Franklin]

So what are you trying to say daveymc29?

[iamskee]

Bob and 30tudor thank you so much! And as I read my previous messages I apologize for all the little typos! I was typing on the phone in the garage right after I would try something on the car and clearly was not as careful typing.

The photos really help, will try to tapa tapa tapa in a few!

[Gunmetal blue2]

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Just thought of something, is the hole in your guide shaft to big. I am talking about that the fork is riveted to the shaft. This would not let you shift all the way in to 2 or 3 gear. Just my 2 cents.

[iamskee]

Have it some wacks and sprayed some more. Doesn't seem to have done anything. Is there anyway to remove that shaft either to the left or right side to clean ends?

[iamskee]

Gunmetal the shifting is ok now. It's the throwout bearing and the hub not retracting all the way/getting stuck in the forward position that is the problem.

[Gunmetal blue2]

Glad to hear that the problem is under control.

[iamskee]

Well the hub problem is still not ok. The shifting is ok, but the clutch/hub/bearing is still sticking. I can't figure it out. I took 1955's (post #95) suggestion and ordered a clutch spring today. Should be here in a couple days. Will update if it works or not.

[Big hammer]

Originally Posted by iamskee

Well the hub problem is still not ok. The shifting is ok, but the clutch/hub/bearing is still sticking. I can't figure it out. I took 1955's (post #95) suggestion and ordered a clutch spring today. Should be here in a couple days. Will update if it works or not.

Now your getting somewhere:-)
Putting this out there to all, with the spring disconnect and the pedal up( fork back) can the hub be rorated in the forword postion? If it can then spin it by hand where it's sticking, maybe free it up? I have never tried this just throwing it out there. We all need the car fixed!

[iamskee]

Well I got the second spring in place as suggested. To my complete disappointment, it does nothing. Something is sticking somewhere and its not enough for two springs to overcome it.

Thank you all for your help, but I guess the bearing is just going to spin and "go with the flow" for now. I wish we had more mechanics/club members down here.

Thank you all for the suggestions, tips, hints and support. If anything changes I will continue to update.

Andrew

[J Franklin]

When your throwout bearing finally seizes and you take it apart to replace it you will most likely find the source of the binding. It will be a big AHA!

[RonC]

Originally Posted by iamskee

Well I got the second spring in place as suggested. To my complete disappointment, it does nothing. Something is sticking somewhere and its not enough for two springs to overcome it.

Thank you all for your help, but I guess the bearing is just going to spin and "go with the flow" for now. I wish we had more mechanics/club members down here.

Thank you all for the suggestions, tips, hints and support. If anything changes I will continue to update.

Andrew

In your video. Your throw out bearing looks like it is not pressed against the stop of the throwout bearing collar. See attached screen shot of your video. After you press it back adjust your clutch to 1" free pedal. You have a lot of grease in there. Your clutch may get trashed once you start driving it and the heat melts it. You may be able to rinse it off with brake clean.

[iamskee]

Ron, what exactly do you mean the hub is not pressed against the color. Is it supposed to be? Doesn't seem like it would be easy to move.

[RonC]

Originally Posted by iamskee

Ron, what exactly do you mean the hub is not pressed against the color. Is it supposed to be? Doesn't seem like it would be easy to move.

It looks like in the video the bearing is not all the way on the throwout bearing collar? It needs to be pressed on as far back as it can go. Take a closeup picture

[iamskee]

Here are a couple close ups of the hub and bearing. Thoughts?

[1955cj5]

Originally Posted by iamskee

Here are a couple close ups of the hub and bearing. Thoughts?

It does look as though the bearing is not up against that collar/ridge on the carrier. 1/8" to maybe 3/16ths inch gap.

I'm not sure if you will be able move it.....two long screw drivers, one one each side of the bearing between the bearing and pressure plate and you might be able to pry it back..be careful what you pry against so you don't damage anything else. You will have to press it evenly, both sides at the same time.

If it were loose enough to move by hand it probably would have already seated as there is quite a bit of pressure on the bearing whenever you use the clutch.

You probably need to start thinking about either pulling the engine or removing the rear end and transmission. If you keep the car you will eventually need to replace the throw out bearing if the problem continues.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Not only is there a gap at the rear of the bearing, but the gap on the front side to the fingers is also way too great.

[30 Tudor]

In the first pic in post 78 it appears that the adjustment rod is digging into the clutch pedal at full return?

In the videos in post 79 it appears that there is something dragging in the throw out bearing fork main shaft.

It still appears that the inability to release the bearing is in the tightness of the bushings for that shaft, they appear tight. You cannot move the shaft with your hand with everything disconnected, it should be free.

I would take a block of wood and depress the pedal and wedge the bearing in the apply position so I could pull the pedal back, disconnect the arm and get more room to slide the shaft back and forth in the housing to get it cleaned up and freed up.
Don't wedge the bearing itself but the collar, between the boss for the grease zerk and the top angle, joint,(corner) where the bell joins the mounting face. This could be a bit tricky and would take two people, watch the fingers.

Once the bearing is out of the way there will be room to slide the shaft back and forth a bit further to facilitate cleaning and loosening.
I would get the shaft loose first,,,if everything else was perfect, it is still a no go with the shaft that tight.

[Big hammer]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Not only is there a gap at the rear of the bearing, but the gap on the front side to the fingers is also way too great.

Bingo! The hub is sticking on the trans main shaft bearing retainer!

[1955cj5]

Originally Posted by iamskee

Well I got the second spring in place as suggested. To my complete disappointment, it does nothing. Something is sticking somewhere and its not enough for two springs to overcome it.

Thank you all for your help, but I guess the bearing is just going to spin and "go with the flow" for now. I wish we had more mechanics/club members down here.

Thank you all for the suggestions, tips, hints and support. If anything changes I will continue to update.

Andrew

I'm surprised....Does the new coil spring on the pedal at least bring the pedal all the way up, or do you still need to pull it by hand?

There might be several things going on here....