The Ford Barn

Tom Wesenberg · 12-05-2016, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forever4

I still don't see a mark on any of the teeth on the crank gear,
But I think it is meshed correct now.....right????

The more I look at that crank gear, the more I think it has the keyway also broached about 5 degrees out of position.

I also noticed that Les Andrews diagram is off-angle and does not match the genuine Ford illustration posted on my web page.

In the first picture in my last post you will see a tiny whitish spec on the crank gear that lines up with the cam gear dimple, which is 3 teeth off from the proper timing.

On the second picture that same mark on the crank gear is 4 teeth to the left.
Something mighty fishy going on here.

I'd pull the oil slinger and check the key.

Frank Miller · 12-05-2016, 07:53 AM

Let me throw in another perspective. The gear may be marked correctly but the key way was machined in the wrong spot. If that is the case you may still be a few degrees off by meshing with the correct tooth. Unless measured with a degree wheel you can't be sure. I'd just put a correctly marked gear on there and toss that one.

George Miller · 12-05-2016, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forever4

I still don't see a mark on any of the teeth on the crank gear,
But I think it is meshed correct now.....right????

The more I look at that crank gear, the more I think it has the keyway also broached about 5 degrees out of position.

I also noticed that Les Andrews diagram is off-angle and does not match the genuine Ford illustration posted on my web page.

Some of the repo gears from the 70ts were off. That may be one of them.

tbirdtbird · 12-05-2016, 10:18 AM

see #58 i think he fixed it

Art Newland · 12-05-2016, 10:53 AM

You guys just can't let a good "saga" go, can you?

I have to admit that not taking the pulley and slinger off to make sure everything is OK down there is bothering me a bit. It's not in following my "check everything" mentality. So I will take it apart and take a look. I've added a red "O" around the only mark on the crank gear, it is hard to photograph but very easily seen in person. It looks like a single strike with a punch. I do think it is properly timed now because I ran the crank around to TDC on #1 (valves closed) and it aligned the ignition timing mark in the cover perfectly.

100IH · 12-05-2016, 11:26 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Whatever you do Don't get #1 to tdc and then check for overlap on #4.
-40 deluxe check your private message.-

Mitch//pa · 12-05-2016, 11:28 AM

Post #26. REMOVE THE SLINGER

Tom Wesenberg · 12-05-2016, 11:48 AM

Yes, the slinger needs to come off, and I would also use a small dental type mirror to look at the backside of the gear while you spin the crankshaft around to see if any factory timing marks are present. That small nick sure doesn't look like anything more than someone's punch mark, or something dropped against the gear and left a mark. But, the mystery still remains about how 3 teeth off became 4 teeth off.

Dick Steinkamp · 12-05-2016, 11:56 AM

With the slinger off, what is it Art should look for?

George Miller · 12-05-2016, 11:56 AM

That is not a factory mark for sure. I think the gear is on backwards to.

Dick Steinkamp · 12-05-2016, 12:08 PM

I think the confusion on 3 or 4 teeth off is just the different camera angles.

I like the "mirror on the backside of the gear" idea. Could it be some previous owner turned the crank gear around during the latest "rebuild" to use the other side of the crank gear tooth faces against the cam gear? He carefully marked the back side of the same gear tooth that was factory marked to insure he used the same tooth to line up with the cam gear. However, due to the helical cut of the gear that would be the wrong thing to do.

Art Newland · 12-05-2016, 12:18 PM

Does it matter if it's on backwards? I suppose the key-way could be damaged, wrong size, etc. I hear the crank gear is very hard to remove, I don't want to take it off if I don't have to.

Tom Wesenberg · 12-05-2016, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Newland

Does it matter if it's on backwards? I suppose the key-way could be damaged, wrong size, etc. I hear the crank gear is very hard to remove, I don't want to take it off if I don't have to.

It could throw the cam to crank timing off by a few degrees, depending on how the gear teeth line up with the keyway.

I do agree with not wanting to remove the gear, if you don't need to, as they can be extremely tight.

Art Newland · 12-05-2016, 01:42 PM

If it will make my car faster than Dick's I'd rather leave it on backwards...

Dick Steinkamp · 12-05-2016, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Newland

If it will make my car faster than Dick's I'd rather leave it on backwards...

You'll need more than a backwards crank gear.

Synchro909 · 12-05-2016, 04:35 PM

This thread won't die!!!
There is something else that has been bothering me about Art's pictures in post #1. In the first pic, the piston is at (or close to ) TDC, yet the exhaust valve is open. That shouldn't happen till the piston is near the bottom of its stroke, a whole half a turn from where is it in the pic and certainly a lot more than either 3 or 4 teeth. Am I missing something or is there more?

Not that this explains the open valve but if the marked tooth on the crank gear is out in relation to the key, who is to say that it is out by a whole number of teeth. The key could have been cut, say, 3 1/2 teeth out. That might explain the 3-4 teeth issue.
Another (but unlikely) issue that hasn't been mentioned is "Is the key slot cut in the right place in the crankshaft?"
As they say, the thlot pickens!

DougT · 12-06-2016, 12:08 AM

I think I would take the crank gear off and hang it on the wall as a reminder of what can bite you in the butt. Then, get one that at least has a chance of being right and marked right off the bat.

Art Newland · 12-06-2016, 12:47 AM

Has anyone ever seen a picture of what the valves and pistons are doing when the cam timing marks are aligned?

J Franklin · 12-06-2016, 12:59 AM

Why not tack the timing gear cover on lightly and drop the pin in as you would to time the ignition and see where the piston and valves are? And then crank till the marks align and give us a report.

Tom Wesenberg · 12-06-2016, 03:41 AM

I just checked a 1928 crankshaft that has a 2 piece aluminum pulley and slinger still bolted in place. I don't see any timing mark on either side of the gear, but maybe it's lower and covered by the slinger.

The keyway, and number 1 and 4 crank throws are all at TDC together.
Wish I could find my new crank gear to check that also.

12-05-2016, 07:53 AM	#62
Frank Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Auburn, MA Posts: 2,106	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... Let me throw in another perspective. The gear may be marked correctly but the key way was machined in the wrong spot. If that is the case you may still be a few degrees off by meshing with the correct tooth. Unless measured with a degree wheel you can't be sure. I'd just put a correctly marked gear on there and toss that one. __________________ “The technique of infamy is to start two lies at once and get people arguing heatedly over which is true.” ~ Ezra Pound

12-05-2016, 10:18 AM	#64
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... see #58 i think he fixed it __________________ '31 180A

12-05-2016, 11:26 AM	#66
100IH Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: SW Idaho Posts: 970	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Whatever you do Don't get #1 to tdc and then check for overlap on #4. -40 deluxe check your private message.-

12-05-2016, 11:28 AM	#67
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... Post #26. REMOVE THE SLINGER

12-05-2016, 11:48 AM	#68
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... Yes, the slinger needs to come off, and I would also use a small dental type mirror to look at the backside of the gear while you spin the crankshaft around to see if any factory timing marks are present. That small nick sure doesn't look like anything more than someone's punch mark, or something dropped against the gear and left a mark. But, the mystery still remains about how 3 teeth off became 4 teeth off.

12-05-2016, 11:56 AM	#69
Dick Steinkamp Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Bellingham, WA Posts: 1,163	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... With the slinger off, what is it Art should look for? __________________ All steel from pedal to wheel

12-05-2016, 11:56 AM	#70
George Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NC Posts: 2,975	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... That is not a factory mark for sure. I think the gear is on backwards to.

12-05-2016, 12:08 PM	#71
Dick Steinkamp Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Bellingham, WA Posts: 1,163	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... I think the confusion on 3 or 4 teeth off is just the different camera angles. I like the "mirror on the backside of the gear" idea. Could it be some previous owner turned the crank gear around during the latest "rebuild" to use the other side of the crank gear tooth faces against the cam gear? He carefully marked the back side of the same gear tooth that was factory marked to insure he used the same tooth to line up with the cam gear. However, due to the helical cut of the gear that would be the wrong thing to do. __________________ All steel from pedal to wheel

12-05-2016, 12:18 PM	#72
Art Newland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Lynden, WA Posts: 1,564	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... Does it matter if it's on backwards? I suppose the key-way could be damaged, wrong size, etc. I hear the crank gear is very hard to remove, I don't want to take it off if I don't have to.

12-05-2016, 01:42 PM	#74
Art Newland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Lynden, WA Posts: 1,564	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... If it will make my car faster than Dick's I'd rather leave it on backwards...

12-05-2016, 04:35 PM	#76
Synchro909 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 7,496	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... This thread won't die!!! There is something else that has been bothering me about Art's pictures in post #1. In the first pic, the piston is at (or close to ) TDC, yet the exhaust valve is open. That shouldn't happen till the piston is near the bottom of its stroke, a whole half a turn from where is it in the pic and certainly a lot more than either 3 or 4 teeth. Am I missing something or is there more? Not that this explains the open valve but if the marked tooth on the crank gear is out in relation to the key, who is to say that it is out by a whole number of teeth. The key could have been cut, say, 3 1/2 teeth out. That might explain the 3-4 teeth issue. Another (but unlikely) issue that hasn't been mentioned is "Is the key slot cut in the right place in the crankshaft?" As they say, the thlot pickens! __________________ I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood. Last edited by Synchro909; 12-05-2016 at 04:59 PM.

12-06-2016, 12:08 AM	#77
DougT Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 53	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... I think I would take the crank gear off and hang it on the wall as a reminder of what can bite you in the butt. Then, get one that at least has a chance of being right and marked right off the bat.

12-06-2016, 12:47 AM	#78
Art Newland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Lynden, WA Posts: 1,564	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... Has anyone ever seen a picture of what the valves and pistons are doing when the cam timing marks are aligned?

12-06-2016, 12:59 AM	#79
J Franklin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,963	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... Why not tack the timing gear cover on lightly and drop the pin in as you would to time the ignition and see where the piston and valves are? And then crank till the marks align and give us a report.

12-06-2016, 03:41 AM	#80
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... I just checked a 1928 crankshaft that has a 2 piece aluminum pulley and slinger still bolted in place. I don't see any timing mark on either side of the gear, but maybe it's lower and covered by the slinger. The keyway, and number 1 and 4 crank throws are all at TDC together. Wish I could find my new crank gear to check that also.