An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!!

[Marshall V. Daut]

Bear with me on this one. It takes some background exposition before I get around to describing what is happening and what I suspect may be the problem.
I am fixing a friend's Model A engine (cylinder boring, new pistons & rings, valve job, seating the bearings with Time Saver, etc.). Everything went back together fine, good compression. Cranks turns over with proper resistance. We're good to go. The FIRST time I re-installed the engine, it started, but had a strong tapping noise at the back of the engine for about 20 seconds before the engine let out a metallic "BANG!" and locked up. "Oh, great! The bearings have seized or the crankshaft snapped in two", I thought. 'Couldn't budge the engine with the starter or hand crank. Out came the engine for the SECOND time. It gets disassembled and all bearings checked. All are still o.k. The crank is still in one piece. The engine goes back together carefully again and is installed for the SECOND time. Everything is hooked up and bolted together. The starter rod is depressed and only clunking happens. Clunk, clunk, clunk. The crank will not turn. The engine will not turn over no matter what I do, even jumping it with a 12 volt battery. Now I'm just beginning to get p*ssed. This is not my first rodeo. I have probably gone through 30-40 Model A and T engines in my time. So I KNOW I am putting this thing back together properly with correct clearances.
O.K. Out comes the engine for the THIRD time and is disassembled again. Still nothing wrong. All clearances are correct and I can turn the crank over via the flywheel on the engine stand. I re-assemble the engine minus the transmission sitting on the garage floor and hook up the starter this time to test whether the engine will turn over before re-installing it. Hurray! The crank turns over, not fast, but it does turn over! It's a tight engine with new rings, so it shouldn't spin TOO easily. The bellhousing and tranny are re-bolted to the engine and the whole mess goes back into the car for the THIRD time. I'm certain whatever was wrong somehow magically got fixed and all will work properly. Everything is bolted back together and hooked up again for a starter test. Clunk, clunk, clunk!!! No spinning. Now I'm REALLY p*ssed and am considering going to the dark side and collecting Chevies instead of antique Fords.
A few minutes ago, I was sitting on the front seat of the car in a deep state of depression and frustration over this affair, when I decide to push in the clutch and try the starter. Spin, spin, spin!!! VERY fast, much faster than when the engine was on the garage floor. What the ---???? I removed the inspection plate over the clutch and looked inside with a flashlight. The pressure plate fingers seem a little low, but the adjusting arm brought the throwout bearing within correct clearance. I try the engine again with the clutch pedal up, and the engine goes clunk, clunk, clunk. It will not turn over until I depress the clutch pedal. As I let the pedal out while the engine is spinning, the engine locks up.
So, finally my question. What the you-know-what is happening here? The springs are still in the clutch disk and it is installed correctly. Was that loud metallic bang I heard just before the engine locked up the first time the clutch committing suicide? I have only had to replace one or two really badly slipping or failed clutches in a Model A in 50 years. So this is a new problem for me. What do you clutch guys say? I know the engine will have to come out for the FOURTH time, but I want to have a good idea what to look for in the clutch area. By the way, when the engine won't spin, the car does not try to lurch move forward = it is not in gear. I can roll the car with the shifter in neutral.
Thanks in advance.
Marshall, the Frustrated One

[tbirdtbird]

stock clutch and PP?

sounds like PP binding on BH somehow
or disk somehow.
I would not put the engine back in the car until I had mounted the engine, FW housing, BH, PP on an engine stand and ran it that way, with the disc NOT installed and see what happens.
If it does the same thing change out the PP and disk for another set and see what happens
Give that disk a good look-see 'cause there hafta be witness marks on it somewhere

No burrs/defects inside the FWH or BH?

It's gonna end up being something really stupid but you know that

[Jacksonlll]

While you are taking everything apart, pull the trans cover, (tower) off and take a peek. Just might be the input shaft locked up..

[MAG]

X2 on post 3

[James Rogers]

Sounds like something in the transmission.

[tbirdtbird]

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Marshall I think you and I have been led down the garden path...

I think the tranny guys are onto something.
Same tranny as before? Anyone take tower off and reinstall it such that it is in two gears at once? Etc?

"The FIRST time I re-installed the engine, it started, but had a strong tapping noise at the back of the engine for about 20 seconds before the engine let out a metallic "BANG!" and locked up."

Whatever the BANG was surely indicates some damage somewhere

[MAG]

" I can roll the car with the shifter in neutral."
I am thinking as long as the engine is not running and transmission is locked between gears other than 3rd the car would roll.

[Kurt in NJ]

Push down the clutch with the engine not running and try moving the car in gear----the fact that the engine cranks good with the clutch pushed down means the clutch is working----i agree that most likely in trans----

[DougT]

The fact that ther car rolls in neutral and the engine spins with the clutch in limits the problem to the input shaft or countershaft. Something could have been riding around in the trans and never caused a problem until the trans got jiggled around during the removal and reinstall. The bang was something getting lodged somewhere.

[Larry Jenkins]

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

Bear with me on this one. It takes some background exposition before I get around to describing what is happening and what I suspect may be the problem.
I am fixing a friend's Model A engine (cylinder boring, new pistons & rings, valve job, seating the bearings with Time Saver, etc.). Everything went back together fine, good compression. Cranks turns over with proper resistance. We're good to go. The FIRST time I re-installed the engine, it started, but had a strong tapping noise at the back of the engine for about 20 seconds before the engine let out a metallic "BANG!" and locked up. "Oh, great! The bearings have seized or the crankshaft snapped in two", I thought. 'Couldn't budge the engine with the starter or hand crank. Out came the engine for the SECOND time. It gets disassembled and all bearings checked. All are still o.k. The crank is still in one piece. The engine goes back together carefully again and is installed for the SECOND time. Everything is hooked up and bolted together. The starter rod is depressed and only clunking happens. Clunk, clunk, clunk. The crank will not turn. The engine will not turn over no matter what I do, even jumping it with a 12 volt battery. Now I'm just beginning to get p*ssed. This is not my first rodeo. I have probably gone through 30-40 Model A and T engines in my time. So I KNOW I am putting this thing back together properly with correct clearances.
O.K. Out comes the engine for the THIRD time and is disassembled again. Still nothing wrong. All clearances are correct and I can turn the crank over via the flywheel on the engine stand. I re-assemble the engine minus the transmission sitting on the garage floor and hook up the starter this time to test whether the engine will turn over before re-installing it. Hurray! The crank turns over, not fast, but it does turn over! It's a tight engine with new rings, so it shouldn't spin TOO easily. The bellhousing and tranny are re-bolted to the engine and the whole mess goes back into the car for the THIRD time. I'm certain whatever was wrong somehow magically got fixed and all will work properly. Everything is bolted back together and hooked up again for a starter test. Clunk, clunk, clunk!!! No spinning. Now I'm REALLY p*ssed and am considering going to the dark side and collecting Chevies instead of antique Fords.
A few minutes ago, I was sitting on the front seat of the car in a deep state of depression and frustration over this affair, when I decide to push in the clutch and try the starter. Spin, spin, spin!!! VERY fast, much faster than when the engine was on the garage floor. What the ---???? I removed the inspection plate over the clutch and looked inside with a flashlight. The pressure plate fingers seem a little low, but the adjusting arm brought the throwout bearing within correct clearance. I try the engine again with the clutch pedal up, and the engine goes clunk, clunk, clunk. It will not turn over until I depress the clutch pedal. As I let the pedal out while the engine is spinning, the engine locks up.
So, finally my question. What the you-know-what is happening here? The springs are still in the clutch disk and it is installed correctly. Was that loud metallic bang I heard just before the engine locked up the first time the clutch committing suicide? I have only had to replace one or two really badly slipping or failed clutches in a Model A in 50 years. So this is a new problem for me. What do you clutch guys say? I know the engine will have to come out for the FOURTH time, but I want to have a good idea what to look for in the clutch area. By the way, when the engine won't spin, the car does not try to lurch move forward = it is not in gear. I can roll the car with the shifter in neutral.
Thanks in advance.
Marshall, the Frustrated One

When you find out what it is, it would have made a great article for the old Model A Trader..

[daveymc29]

I vote with the tranny guys. It may have broken something because it was in two gears at once and you may not have to be in neutral to push it back and forth. Pull the tower and have friends help you to watch the gears while you move the car in and out of gears, all gears. Odds are the tranny needs a serious rebuild by now. But first, remove the tower and check, It may be that the transmission is okay and the U-joint has it all locked up. That may have been your "clunk."

[tbirdtbird]

Marshall, where are U?

[gweilbaker]

He's elbow deep into this dilemma

[larrys40]

Marshall

I'm not saying this is it as I think your symptom would be different but I recently had a repro clutch plate and pressure plate have a size issue with each other.
The inner part of the spring plate on the clutch was slightly larger than the inner circle of the pressure plate and the clutch would not release as the clutch disk even though installed correctly and fingers set would not release . In this case it would not lock up but the clutch would not release .

I feel you have a transmission issue and possibly a broken tooth or foreign matter in your trans that may be locking up thh input shaft.
Like the other guys said can you pull the trans top
( while pulling make sure your forks were aligned if previously off ) and check things out .
I consider myself schooled more than 98 percent of many but have had things happen as well like the clutch disk I described above.

Remember not to start with trans top off!!!
I know you know but just a friendly reminder in your desperation and frustration .
All the best
Larry Shepard

[Marshall V. Daut]

UPDATE: To all who have given excellent suggestions: Thank you for taking the time to respond with the benefit of your experience.
I pulled the engine yesterday afternoon for the FOURTH time in 10 days and I think I have isolated the problem that is causing the engine to lock up. Although this has for certain locked up the engine, I need to know the why this happened before I put everything back together again and install the power plant in the chassis. Could it happen again for no reason? I will be addressing that today and tomorrow. I prefer not to reveal the suspected cause until I have been able to start the engine and not have it bang and lock up again. Remember: the engine turned over fine and started before it suddenly locked up last week. Something caused the part to fail that did the locking. I don't want to give out the wrong answer if this part fails again, so please be patient for the answer until probably tomorrow evening. Not much time can be stolen away from our front porch repair while the weather is still good. Otherwise, I'd have the whole shooting match back together and running late this afternoon.
Stay tuned...
Marshall

[larrys40]

Sounds great Marshall . I have had more clutch issues with various parts ( mostly aftermarket or repro ) this last year than the last 10 before
Unbelievable !!! Hopefully you have it licked !!
Larry Shepard

[tbirdtbird]

In another life Marshall wrote suspense thriller screenplays

[100IH]

How about Rippley's Believe it or not?

[quickchange]

Last week a friend arrived with his A , wanted new gears fitted as his where noisy & had sold the vehicle , HE pulled the engine & trans , Fitted new trans, decided too inspect the clutch , fitted new plate, asked if flywheel bolts should have a washer under the heads , answer no , but should have the metal plate, just take one fro the spares, he did, fitted all back in vehicle , hit the started & it goes clonk , no turn over, He hops in a plane & goes home, frustrated as hell , ( he is a bean counter ) I pull all apart , see the problem, SOME ONE AT SOME TIME USED TORQUE TUBE BOLTS to bolt flywheel on , THESE ARE TOO LONG , hit rear main, fitted correct bolts , installed back in the 4 door , all good , Just be aware that bits got changed over the years ,
Marshall , could this be an area too check on , Derek in a damp but mild NZ spring is here & lawns need cutting each week,

[Marshall V. Daut]

'Sorry, folks. Nothing will be decided until Sunday due to other time constraints = no time to work on the car until at least tomorrow. I guess I'll have to keep you in suspense for two more days.
Marshall