Ford Model A & B Motors

[old28]

Spokes -- Thanks for the information on the other magazines. I have Mr B's book and have just finished it, I am going to read it again and ask for as much help on this site as I can get before starting a build.

George Miller -- Ya we did a lot of BBC block o-ring to seal copper head gaskets on our blowen/alcohol nostalgia front motor dragster. This is a totally different motor and o-ringing is over the top for this project. If it looks like I can not get a good seal with the 4" (.125" over) I will see if I can run .020-.030" over bore. I want to stay with a gasket that will work with the 7.1 head I finally get.

[Spokes]

Originally Posted by old28

Thanks CarlG Unable to find it on Amazon, other places I can try?

Jim B. is a contributor on Ford Barn, He sells His Book direct. You Can contact Jim on Ford Barn. Two good groups to join. S.O.S.S Secrets Of Speed Society . .and F.A.S.T Hot For Hot Fords. They both have WEB sites, Hill Climbs stock and Members speed parts for sale . Hope This Helps !!!

[Jim Brierley]

I have my Bonneville engine O-ringed, haven't found a need for my street engines. To do a flathead it would be a lot of work.

[old28]

Jim Brierley --Thanks for jumping in. I have just finished reading your book and I will start my second pass on Thursday. Great book with tons of information. As A young old dude at 70 the more I read, the more questions I have. Group on this site has been great and are treating the new guy nice.

After reading the book I am leaning more towards a "hot Street" style motor for my future A build.This motoris is for a TROG car to race on the sand at Pismo Beach, CA once or twice a year. My first idea was to shot towards a 85-95 HP motor. After your book and talking to a lot of people on this site I think a 65-75 HP motor with a B trans with 39 gears would work out better. Motor will have all the normal High Performace things done, cam, intake, P&P, Ign,ect. I still would like to max the cubic inches with a 4" bore & stock stroke. I would like to run a Winfield 7.1 repo head. This is all in my head right know so there is lots of room for changes.

I would like to send you a PM to ask you a couple of questions on piston CH and head relation if I can. Thanks for any and all help.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by old28

Jim Brierley --Thanks for jumping in. I have just finished reading your book and I will start my second pass on Thursday. Great book with tons of information. As A young old dude at 70 the more I read, the more questions I have. Group on this site has been great and are treating the new guy nice.

After reading the book I am leaning more towards a "hot Street" style motor for my future A build.This motoris is for a TROG car to race on the sand at Pismo Beach, CA once or twice a year. My first idea was to shot towards a 85-95 HP motor. After your book and talking to a lot of people on this site I think a 65-75 HP motor with a B trans with 39 gears would work out better. Motor will have all the normal High Performace things done, cam, intake, P&P, Ign,ect. I still would like to max the cubic inches with a 4" bore & stock stroke. I would like to run a Winfield 7.1 repo head. This is all in my head right know so there is lots of room for changes.

I would like to send you a PM to ask you a couple of questions on piston CH and head relation if I can. Thanks for any and all help.

Before I send a PM to someone I ask myself two questions, 1) Is it possible someone else would be interested in the answer and 2) Is it possible that the question/answer will generate other input from posters when they see it. This leaves me sending very few PM's.

Charlie Stephens

[johnneilson]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by George Miller

If you worked on drag engines for 50 years you must know about O ringing the head for stainless steel O ring. Why not do that. That is how I sealed the Olds 455 head on my Model A engine for hill climbs.

I see the issue of "O-Ring and or Fire Ring" mentioned here.

IMHO, full on race OHV motors will need the help, I use solid copper gaskets in this application. Putting the wire groove in on the Flat Head is a chore, it can be done. But, you are cutting into a deck that is marginally thick enough to seal a gasket. O-ringing around the bore is fine if placed properly, lots of material.

I contend that the gasket failures, some, are from the head and deck moving caused by being too thin. (this assumes deck and head are properly flat) The only FH motor I currently work on with water jacket does not have a o-ring for the gasket, instead use a BEST graphite gasket and have a sufficiently thick head that supports it. No leaks or failed gaskets.

Carry on, some good discussion here.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by johnneilson

I see the issue of "O-Ring and or Fire Ring" mentioned here.

IMHO, full on race OHV motors will need the help, I use solid copper gaskets in this application. Putting the wire groove in on the Flat Head is a chore, it can be done. But, you are cutting into a deck that is marginally thick enough to seal a gasket. O-ringing around the bore is fine if placed properly, lots of material.

I contend that the gasket failures, some, are from the head and deck moving caused by being too thin. (this assumes deck and head are properly flat) The only FH motor I currently work on with water jacket does not have a o-ring for the gasket, instead use a BEST graphite gasket and have a sufficiently thick head that supports it. No leaks or failed gaskets.

Carry on, some good discussion here.

I agree I have never found a need on a flat head. The one time I did it was on a olds 455 head on a A engine. I had one bore to 4.030 over. at first it was running a Lion head number 6. then changed to Brumfield 7-1 never had head gasket trouble with that engine.

My 1928 sport coupe is running a 4 inch bore for 22,000 miles {knock on wood} with out blowing a gasket.

[old28]

Charlie Stephens -- I am with you on #1 & #2, but there is a number #3 that I ask myself, Has this question been asked and answered 100 times on this site and the crew does not want to hear it again

johnneilson -- What is the number of the Best Graphite gasket you are using? What head & CR?

George Miller -- As I would like to bore this motor to 4" and use the water jackets, what head gasket do you run?
Looking at a lion Head and a Winfield Repo 7.1, what say you guys? The head needs to breath good as I will be running 2x2 81's or 3x2 94's.

I want the correct gasket for the heads and block that I will not be replacing after each race weekend.

[johnneilson]

OLD28

I have no idea what the number is, the owner just has a stack of them.
As for the head, it is one I made, running about 9:1 per whistler.

J

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by old28

Charlie Stephens -- I am with you on #1 & #2, but there is a number #3 that I ask myself, Has this question been asked and answered 100 times on this site and the crew does not want to hear it again

johnneilson -- What is the number of the Best Graphite gasket you are using? What head & CR?

George Miller -- As I would like to bore this motor to 4" and use the water jackets, what head gasket do you run?
Looking at a lion Head and a Winfield Repo 7.1, what say you guys? The head needs to breath good as I will be running 2x2 81's or 3x2 94's.

I want the correct gasket for the heads and block that I will not be replacing after each race weekend.

On my sport coupe with a Brumfield head and 4 inch bore. I'm using a FEL-PRO 7013C

[old28]

johnneilson -- Had to ask

George Miller -- Thank you for the gasket numbers & head information. With the information I have posted above, would you IYO recommend a head setup that would meet my needs as I don't want to over build the motor for what it will be used for. This is all in the planning stages so fire away.

[old28]

hardtimes -- Just want to get this clear, we talked about it before.

If I run a motor with a flat top piston even with the top of the block, have a compressed gasket of .050" and run one of Tod's crow foot iron heads with no piston index cut into the head, will the CR be at or near 7.1?

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by old28

hardtimes -- Just want to get this clear, we talked about it before.

If I run a motor with a flat top piston even with the top of the block, have a compressed gasket of .050" and run one of Tod's crow foot iron heads with no piston index cut into the head, will the CR be at or near 7.1?

IMO, given YOUR statements above, the cr of this setup will be between 7:1 and 8:1 cr ! Look my pictures over again. The one pic , without flycut, is what you can have from Tod.

To get exact cr, you will have to do exact calculations, i.e.-bore;stroke;cc of head chambers;gasket compressed. Being an amateur math man, I 'guesstimate' everything in life. Hey, I'm guessing that I'm only wrong 50% of the time


(note here: There is a chart concerning gasket cc, when calculating...I use the 20cc figure that is used by a famous racer member here)

Again, my opinion: This Crowfoot Iron Head from Tod ('Buttermore Special' ) has THICKER surface , so that you can order with flycut and with some WORK, do install/testing/shaving/install/testing/shaving...till you get what YOU feel is best. Or you can calculate and go for 'best' on first assembly , your choice..and choice is good, eh .
Using old/worn Iron heads is felt to be 'cool' looking and impresses the boys. However, IMO, decades of rust scale and milling/repairs (now throw in poor torqueing practices) makes these same heads primary function (no flexing firm clamping to block) lessened. That is a primary reason for leaks/blowouts/cracking, IMO.

Whereas, along comes a NEWLY made thicker (in the right areas) iron flathead (Tod's Crowfoot), which eliminates/minimizes such problems...let me think which one should I use...

George gave you gasket info that has worked for him. Also, Best 509 has worked somewhat for 4", but NOT many at all to choose from that will PROPERLY FIT THE 4" BORE AND BIG VALVES !!

I have one made to handle 4" bore and it is NOS Cunningham, maybe only one left on earth ! That's why I'm saving it as is... ..it's a poor boy syndrome thing most wouldn't understand.

IS THAT CLEAR..as mud !!

[old28]

hardtimes -- That's a lot of information to mill around in this old head

It is a great "NEW" head that is thicker in all the right places. I ain't trying to impress anyone with the looks, just want the best iron head I can get for my project.

[johnneilson]

One thing to consider, there has been talk of the practice of using two head gaskets on these motors to "make" piston clearance.

IMHO, it is going to cause more problems. Not only does it provide one more place to leak, it will lead to more deflection in the deck and head resulting in more potential for leaking in the future. (clamping down on a soft surface allowing the deflection)

As with any info provided here by me, it is my opinion. I am sure that many others will disagree, those are your opinions.

J

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by forever4

It is also a poor boy syndrome to save used head gaskets, in case you might need it someday.

If I had an example of the typical big valve, I could put it in a block and evaluate all the gaskets against it and add that info to the rating guide.

Is there a particular parts store big valve everyone uses which has a 5/16" stem?

click> Model A & B Cylinder Head Gasket Guide on Ford Garage

Hey Vince,
At least I didn't tell them where the Cunningham 4" bore gasket came from...ha, that guy might get mob email for same !

Regarding valves source, in the new B , I think that the stems were 11/32" chev keepers/retainers. The valves were new chev big bore 1.75" ..stainless, all exhaust. However, in my case, I used V8 flathead valve springs (75lbs seat pressure) and Chrysler lifters.
It was necessary to shorten the valve stems somewhat due to height of lifters. So , new keeper notches cut into stems for what seat pressure wanted.
Many yrs ago, used sbc exhaust valves for all new B block build.

[old28]

Thanks guys, all good stuff.

I ran dual copper head gaskets on my blown/alcohol BBC a few times as we were in a bind, Not the way to go, but when your racing you do what you have to & with what you have at the track.

[old28]

hardtimes -- If I use Snyder's .040/.060 over size replacement pistons with stock A rods and crank, the piston will be above the deck .031". If I have a compressed head gasket at .055", that leaves .024" clearance. If I want to run .050" head to piston clearance, does this mean I have to fly cut the head on Tods crow foot in the piston area about .026"? I know that all measurements would need to be exact at time of build.

How much CR would be lost?

App cost of the pistons you purchased from Egge with a higher CH so you could get a -0- piston/deck?

I am looking for a solid 7.2 CR setup.

After reading Mr. B's book twice I am leaning more towards a 60/70 HP motor with a 20/30/40/60 cleanup bore.

[Tom Wesenberg]

"How much CR would be lost?"

If Tod's head compression ratio is based on .050" clearance, then you will have the same ratio if you need to have pistons made to that clearance, or the head flycut.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by forever4

It is also a poor boy syndrome to save used head gaskets, in case you might need it someday.

If I had an example of the typical big valve, I could put it in a block and evaluate all the gaskets against it and add that info to the rating guide.

Is there a particular parts store big valve everyone uses which has a 5/16" stem?

click> Model A & B Cylinder Head Gasket Guide on Ford Garage

I use a 235 chev intake and turn the head to 1.750 dia. exhaust I use the 235 exhaust as is. For the valve guides I used 11/32 ones from a International tractor.
You can now buy guides from model A parts suppliers. You will have to shim the springs or use different ones, to get enough spring pressure. I also reamed out original guides one time to 11/32.