Purchase Advise: 1930 Model A Tudor

[vespaholic]

1930 Model A Tudor
Restored +/- 20 years ago.
It's been sitting but runs.
Very cool patina which I really like.
I went over the body with a fine toothed comb. Very solid and looks to be all original sheet metal.

Here's what it needs according the the vintage car dealer that has it:
Carb Leaks fuel
Won't idle long without the choke pulled partially open
Low beams do not work
High beams do not work
Rear parking light does not work
Brake light does not work
Need Brake shoes all around
Needs emergency brake shoes
Needs Oil Change
No coolant in system
Needs new + battery cable
Vac wipers do not work.
Gas tank has a bunch of crap in it.
(It also needs tires but that's not part of the deal)

They want $4000 for the car.
They said they would fix everything listed for no less than $1500 to no more than $2000.

So all in I could have a running driving safe A for $6000 or less.

Is that a good price?

My time is a factor as I travel a lot on business, so having it running driving and stopping safely would be a plus.

I think it may be but I'd like a second, third…..20th opinion.

BTW: It does not have the original engine in it BUT, it does come with the original engine out of the car.

Thanks in advance.

PS: They already put a new battery in it.

[1930artdeco]

Welcome. 4K seems in the ball park you may be able to dicker with them a bit. Here is my 2 cents worth:

-The electrical can be fixed in a few hours with about $100 in wiring.
-The brake system will cost around 1500-2000 to completely rebuild.
-The vacuum wipers are not required as RainX will be your friend.
-A rebuilt engine will run you about 4-5K done right.
-A gunked up fuel tank can be cleaned out (assuming no cancer) but it will just take you awhile.

Do these people know how to work on a Model A? They are simple but have their quirks for an 80 yr old car. Where do you live as local club member may go with you to look the car over.

Mike

[vespaholic]

They do have Model A service experience.
It's an awkward situation.
All my friend that are in the Model A club locally are better friends with the 2 guys that own the dealership.
I guess that could work both ways.
$4000 is the "dickered" price.
Thanks for the reply.

[Mitch//pa]

i doubt they can properly fix everything for 2K without half assing it..the carb may be screwed from a contaminated gas tank to boot. most model A brake systems need more than shoes usually drums also as a minimum.. since your time is valuable and you want a good running reliable car i would spend more and move on. probably has a cooling system issue also..
IMO your buying a can of worms
beware and educated...
good luck
post some pics if u have

[1930artdeco]

Another question you need to ask is how is the wood in the car? the roof and around the windows all have wood. Does it drive halfway decently, any noise from the tranny or rear end? I assume you work on vintage Vespas so will most of the skills to work on this car.

Mike

[vespaholic]

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I can't speak to the wood as the interior was finished when restored.
I'll be driving it Saturday, it was raining today.
They do not have a ton of info on the car as it was purchased from the estate of the prior owner.

[vespaholic]

This dealer is fairly reputable but not cheap so I'm thinking they have already inspected what is needed to make it right.

[C26Pinelake]

You can't buy a lot for that money first of all. Secondly remember it is a Tudor which is entry level Model A and does not command the same amount of dollars as the much sportier models. It would've a good idea to post several photographs before you sign the deal. There are a few experts on this site that can assist you greatly. Good luck! Wayne

[Tom Wesenberg]

I think it sounds like a good deal. It basically needs 3 things to be running right. Clean the whole fuel system, fix the wiring, and fix the brakes. Plus it needs new tires, but I still think it sounds good. Pictures would be the deciding factor though.

If the body, paint, and interior are good, that's a lot of money saved, plus a lot of down time.

[vespaholic]

The body paint and interior are all sound.
I could find no evidence of bondo anywhere and like I said I love the patina.
I'll get pictures on Saturday morning.

[Mitch//pa]

what do you mean by no coolant
just water? or empty

[vespaholic]

Mitch: I guess I should have said that the cooling system has been drained.

The car was put into storage a while back, then the owner died.

[Mitch//pa]

so it sat for many years empty
was it refilled and thoroughly tested yet..

[vespaholic]

Mitch: I do not know yet. I'm going to get into the "weeds" about the repairs tomorrow.

[Mitch//pa]

the gas tank being full of crap is a very major concern and usually a deal breaker for me.
wonder how they plan to rectify that

[Sunnybrook Farm]

Strange the brake shoes are all shot, I wonder if they checked or just noticed that it didn't stop like disk brakes? I would be worried that I wouldn't get $2000 worth of proper repairs out of a shop like that, I don't know them but my level of trust with things like that has been dropped to almost zero over the years. The 4K sounds decent especially if you decided to work on it yourself which is part of having one.

[1931 flamingo]

PICTURES< PICTURES< PICTURES>
"Restored 20 +/- years ago" If so, how/why are so many things shot/worn etc?
Patina How's the paint/interior?
Paul in CT

1930 Model A Tudor
Restored +/- 20 years ago

[vespaholic]

@Sunnybrook: I'm wondering the same thing myself. I'm really leaning towards getting it towed home and checking it out myself.
I guess I'll look for "how to rebuild your model A brakes" videos on youtube.
@1931 flamingo: No pics till Saturday. As far as why stuff is worn…. who knows?
If it was restored then used a lot, then stored, that could be 1 answer.
I know what I'm looking at from a body, interior, frame condition.
The motor looks simple enough.
The brakes give me pause.

[Mikeinnj]

Originally Posted by vespaholic

@Sunnybrook: I'm wondering the same thing myself. I'm really leaning towards getting it towed home and checking it out myself.
I guess I'll look for "how to rebuild your model A brakes" videos on youtube.
@1931 flamingo: No pics till Saturday. As far as why stuff is worn…. who knows?
If it was restored then used a lot, then stored, that could be 1 answer.
I know what I'm looking at from a body, interior, frame condition.
The motor looks simple enough.
The brakes give me pause.

The motor is pretty simple,
as long as the block is not cracked....

[Tom Wesenberg]

The brakes may just need a CORRECT adjustment. Many don't know how to work on mechanical brakes. You can also look at how much of the adjuster shaft is showing on the back side of the backing plates. If they are screwed in a lot, then you won't see as much shaft showing, and that would be a good sign the brakes are worn out. At any rate it wouldn't take much work to pull a front drum and inspect the front brakes.

[barkleydave]

My dad told me if your finding excuses to justify walk.
You can easy put 5k to make it a real runner.

[ronn]

If you are as busy as you say with work, I would pass, spend a bit more for a fine running car to enjoy. you dont sound like you have the time, nor want to work on the car.
You need to determine if you want a project or a nice driveable car. Of course you will then spend more money.................

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Well, FWIW I paid 4k for a super solid, non running Tudor in 2001. I know times change but similar in that it was a frame up amateur restoration from the early 70s. I got decent paint, aged but decent LB interior but overall the car was in need of a lot of TLC. Also in 15 + years of tracking these cars the values have changed a lot less than some othe types of cars, at least IMO. Most people thought it was a decent deal. More than once I was told that the rodders would be happy to get it for 4k if I didn't want to put it back on the road.

Was ultimately into it for around 12k or so, got 10k for it in trade on another car. The biggest expenses were pro brakes, front end and replacement of top including wood, top and headliner. The rest was done over time at home. My approach at the time was:

1) get the car running, use it around the neighborhood and get familiar with Model As.

2) Initially wanted to do more of the "bigger stuff" myself but also wanted to use the car for longer distances, etc. bottom line - I decided I valued getting the safety items addressed sooner rather than later as time was limited, and figured I would let the shop deal with the top at the same time.

3) continue to handle mechanical and cosmetic projects over time of ownership.

When it was time to move on it was not a money maker but not too bad either - a fun car and I traded being into it for a little more than it was worth for the ability to enjoy quickly. My point is DIY vs. a pro may make sense but with these cars it will likely put you in a situation of a larger investment than it is worth in the end. Some folks can tolorate that while others would not go that route. It was rewarding to revive a 30 year old restoration and while not perfect I am sure new owner is happy with the overall looks and driveability of the car. So how you approach the repairs is a personal choice - time, money and desire to use vs. work on it are all factors to consider.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Actually what ronn said. At the time it made sense but today I would spend a little more and enjoy immediately.

[oliverguy]

why does a restored car have Patina? Why does a restored car need that much work? I'd probably spend 4K for an all orginal car that needed everything and had not ever been messed with (becoming rarer every day), but will run from someone's half assed restoration.

Your always ahead buying a car which runs drives and stops the way it should. YOur still going to need to put money into it, you always do. As it sits now you might have 12K into it and still have an old restoration.

[oliverguy]

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also a dealer always makes 50% profit or they wouldn't be in business. I'd rather put that mark up in my pocket by buying from a private party.

[vespaholic]

@ oliverguy:
I guess because stuff happens.
A car that was restored 20-30 years ago then used would have patina.
My 1967 Galaxie that I restored in 1991 has patina now simply because I use it….a lot.
Who knows?
Suffice it to say, from a body and interior stand point the car is nice and well done.
I need to do more homework and evaluate the mechanics.
I work a lot with Alfa Romeos.
Buying an Alfa with a good body out weighs the mechanics everyday.
Typically, anything mechanical can be fixed.
This car is on consignment, the dealer does not own it directly.
We'll see tomorrow.
My "A" buddy is going with me to look at it.
We'll see what happens.
Standby.
Thanks.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by vespaholic

@ oliverguy:
I guess because stuff happens.
A car that was restored 20-30 years ago then used would have patina.
My 1967 Galaxie that I restored in 1991 has patina now simply because I use it….a lot.
Who knows?
Suffice it to say, from a body and interior stand point the car is nice and well done.
I need to do more homework and evaluate the mechanics.
I work a lot with Alfa Romeos.
Buying an Alfa with a good body out weighs the mechanics everyday.
Typically, anything mechanical can be fixed.
This car is on consignment, the dealer does not own it directly.
We'll see tomorrow.
My "A" buddy is going with me to look at it.
We'll see what happens.
Standby.
Thanks.

Take a lot of detailed pictures and post them. You will be surprised at what people can spot. Put the camera on the lowest resolution so they will be easy or take them at high resolution and reduce the resolution for posting. You said they put a new battery in it, did they put it in with the correct positive ground? Turn on anything and see if the ammeter shows a discharge. If there is nothing to turn on jump from the cable attached too the starter motor to ground with a small bulb and a couple of wires. Any chance there was a fuse added and it is blown?


Charlie Stephens

[Mitch//pa]

we love pictures

[vespaholic]

@CharlieStephens:
I can only assume that put the battery in correctly as the car runs (or am I wrong?)
@Mitch:
I'll have pictures tomorrow.

I'm going there tomorrow morning at 7AM.
They are going to let me play around with it a bit.
So I'm going to put anti freeze and water in it and see what happens.
I'm going to try to get it running and drive it around the parking lot.
That should give me a chance to try the brakes.
We'll see.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by vespaholic

@CharlieStephens:
I can only assume that put the battery in correctly as the car runs (or am I wrong?)
@Mitch:
I'll have pictures tomorrow.

I'm going there tomorrow morning at 7AM.
They are going to let me play around with it a bit.
So I'm going to put anti freeze and water in it and see what happens.
I'm going to try to get it running and drive it around the parking lot.
That should give me a chance to try the brakes.
We'll see.

If they put the battery in with the wrong polarity it would probably run. If the generator survived the battery being installed with the wrong polarity it would probably burn out soon (see if you can smell burned wiring) but after it burned out the car would run probably fairly well off of the battery until the battery ran down. Also putting the battery in with the wrong polarity could have been what blew the fuse if there was one. Look for the fuse on top of the starter motor or buried somewhere in the wiring. Remember on the battery the slightly larger post is positive and should be connected to the ground. You should be able to see the battery through the metal access cover in the floor board.

Charlie Stephens

[vespaholic]

@Charlie: Thanks I'll check that.
They did note that the + battery cable needed to be replaced.
These guys are supposedly reputable so I'll hope for the best.

[Kevin in NJ]

No they are not going to be fixing the brakes and all the other stuff for just $2000.

They may make it work different, but safe?

To fix brakes properly you need specialized tooling and a lot of new parts. If they do not have the tools to arc the shoes to the drums and replace the drums with cast iron then it is not fixed. They may sort of stop, but there is a reason why a lot of people complain about the poor braking ablitliy of the A.

It is important to know and understand.
The Model A was designed from the factory to run 60 MPH.
The Model A has very good brakes (the limits are the tires) and can stop very good.
The Model A is a very confident car to run 60 MPH with factory parts.

If they tell you the car is only good for 45 MPH do not let them work on it. Do not believe anyone telling you different. Do not believe me, research the history of the car and how people drove them. You will have a new respect for the cars abilities.

I believe $4000 for a running driving tudor that is not rusty (and has not had bad fixes) is a good deal if it is not completely wore out. BUT you must expect to have to redo most all the mechanical parts to have a safe to drive car. This can be done over time as you get the cash and understand how to do a proper rebuild.

For a perspective, the Model A was mostly a precision built car. That was how Ford was able to build them so cheap and be so durable. You have to restore that precision to get a very very reliable and capable car.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Keep us posted vespaholic.

On the patina question, I see it all the time with Model As. By now the restorations on many of these cars can be 30, 40, 50 years old. I know on the tudor I had the guy did the work over a couple years finishing in '73. A decent job, painted frame, pro paint, etc. but at some point in his 30 years of ownership it moved lower on the priority list and was stored outside long enough to lead to the top drying out and cracking. Stuff happens.

In terms of locating an original car needing a restoration it is not always the best choice. A car needing everything is fine for the right person as is a high point full restoration on the other end of the spectrum. In thinking about this, I think each situation is individual but governed by the same few basics, which can differ with the car being considered as well as the owner.

What are one's mechanical abilities/desire to do some, all or none of the work the car may need.

How much time does one have (good to be realistic about this one) to devote to the hobby

How much money does one have/want to devote to the hobby?

Also, what's the end goal of the car. With the Tudor I had, I didn't have a lot of money to buy a fully restored car but I had enough to justify paying someone to do some heavy lifting as time was not as plentiful. High point car, heck no, but we put a lot of miles on it. I note that because if you are considering having the shop or another one do the work for you, you might be in the same situation now. I can see the logic of negotiating some or all of the work. Not to worry, there is always some little task to do on a Model A!

Having had a couple of show cars one thing I love about older restorations is the freedom of worrying about any little catastrophe like a stone chip or kid climbing up on the runningboard.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

To Kevin's point whether you use a shop or DIY, whoever inspects brakes & front end should know their stuff. We did not want to worry about safety, and that's most of it right there, along with good tires and shocks (makes a difference in cornering).

[C26Pinelake]

Still no pictures ??? Wayne

[Keith True]

If the body is nice then $4000.is a good buy,at least where I am.I know what I can get for A's here,but they mostly go to rodders.I sold a solid 31 Tudor a few years ago,it belonged to an old family friend.Solid,straight,but needed babbit and brake work.He drove it around town that way for over 40 years.A street rodder bought it,and then gave me the chassis after.I sold it for the woman for $6500.The A guys wanted me to get it running,take it for a ride,so they could evaluate and make an offer.It hadn't been run in three years.The rod shop that bought it asked if I would air up the tires and get it out of the barn so they could get up to it with a ramp truck.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Yep, when I bought my tudor it was my first Model A and my logic for spending four grand on a non running car was that it was rock solid, and fairly presentable in addition to my sense that it would not take much to get it running based on a little trust in the local guy I bought it from. . While I might prefer not too, I knew I could sell to a rodder in a heartbeat, for at least that, so no risk. Carb was dirtly - once home it took 15 minutes to get it running!!

[mike657894]

4k with good body sounds good. body work can really eat up a lot of project time and should be avoided. now the 2000 work and solve all those problems seems cheap for a shop charging mechanic hours. but they may have a guy they now does good fast work. sounds good and at those prices i dont think you can get screwed with the deal.

[mike657894]

but again if you have the money i have seen some really nice cars in my area for 10k or less ready to go. i only bring this up because my A was purchased by my grandfather. in similar shape as the 4k deal. And he never got the time to do much with it. It left me a great start to a really nice basic driver car because i would rather spend every available minute in the garage. But i feel bad for him as he wanted to work on the car and have something he could take the pride in working on. here is a craigslist add in my area. this just jumped to 9500 from 7500 im guessing the guy wants 7500 and was getting 5500 offers so he thought raising the price would help him get the 7500 he set out for. https://saginaw.craigslist.org/cto/5289391933.html

[vespaholic]

OK! I bought it!!
I put coolant and water in it.
Started right up after holding the choke for a while.
Sounds like it has a very very slight lean backfire.
Fuel bowl was cloudy, valve tight so I'm thinking a carb rebuild and a complete fuel system clean out will be first on the list.
Drives, shifts and stops fine.
The dealer suggested the brake job because one shoe is very worn the others not so bad.
That tells me it was not adjusted properly or ???
Either way it stops well enough for "around the block" test drives.
No milky sh*t in the engine oil or the radiator so I'm guessing the head gasket is ok.
No coolant leaks anywhere except from one of the hoses and that stopped after a few minutes.
Changing all fluids will be after the engine is running well.
The dealer is delivering it to my house at no additional charge so that's a plus.
I really really misheard the dealer about the estimated time of "restoration" on this car.
He estimates at least 40 years ago not 20….my bad.
There was a cars and coffee at the dealer this AM.
A Model A guy was there and he told me he thought it was a good car and was actually there to possibly buy it.
We talked a lot about the car and he said I got a good deal.
Anyway….thanks for all the advice.
I'll keep you in the loop as I move forward.
Thanks!!

[ronn]

from the photos, you stole the car. much nicer then originally described!

looks like you are sitting on a car worth double..................

best of luck with your new toy!

[vespaholic]

Thanks Ronn!

[Anteek29]

Looks like a humdinger of a buy...enjoy it!

[99ZoomR]

Looks great! I bought my A last September (she's a 30 year old restoration) and have spent the last two months learning how to drive and maintain an A. If you don't already have it, get Les Andrews Model A mechanic's handbook. Change all the fluids before driving it very much. It takes less time to change coolant, oil, trans, and rear end fluids in an A than it does to change oil in any modern car. Also locate and grease all the fittings, and check every nut and bolt to make sure they're still tight. There are lots of cotter pins used, so make sure they've been installed. After you get this done, have fun learning how to time your A, and enjoy fiddling, polishing, and refurbishing her back to her former glory. Keep us posted!!

Len

[Mitch//pa]

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i agree much nicer than i envisioned from the original description. as with any old car there most likely will be issues thats inevitable. are you having them do any of the work or just getting it as is?
good luck with it

[barnstuf]

You mentioned you did not see any bondo. If that is a concern take a weak magnet such as you might use to put
a photo on your refrigerator, Run the weak magnet along the lower moldings. If there is bondo it will drop off and if real metal it will adhere to it. If the seller has the engine warm and running when you come to see the car then beware, as the engine when cold may have a knock he does not want you to hear. When opening the doors look for a sag, evan a slight sag.

[1931 flamingo]

CONGRATULATIONS ! ! ! ! LOOKS LIKE YOU STOLE IT ! !
RUN, Fast.
Paul in CT

[C26Pinelake]

Looks like you made a good buy! I also like the whitewalls on it. Do the things you say and keep us posted! Wayne

[1930artdeco]

Yep! looks like you got a good deal as far as the body and interior go. Just make sure she is safe to drive (brakes, fluids etc.) and then drive her and learn how she works. Do some minor tinkering over the winter and next spring/summer you will have a great car to drive around in.

Mike

[Tacoma Bob]

MMMM a dilemma for sure. Think with your wallet and not your heart. In my case I bought a 30 Tudor in 2002. It was in somewhat similar shape. I gave the asking price of 8 grand. within the next three years I invested another 8 grand. It still could use a new interior and body and paint. It has been a reliable runner and I did everything right. The initial price is very good but it will take way more than tow grand to get it reliable . Not to mention a lot of work.

[Dennis Pereira]

Enjoy your purchase I sold a 1928 closed cab truck for the same price that needed everything it was just a shell on a frame . The buyer would not listen to me about what was needed .

[vespaholic]

Thanks all.
I am fairly excited, but trying to relax.
It won't be here until Thursday.
Next weekend I'll clean out the fuel system.
Thanks again for the advise!

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Congratulations - that car looks GREAT for the $$, let the journey begin!! :-)

[Tom Wesenberg]

You did say $4,000 was the down payment and the other half was due on delivery........didn't you?

I can't believe they sold it so cheap. It would easily go for twice that at auction or ebay.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by vespaholic

So all in I could have a running driving safe A for $6000 or less.

Is that a good price?

YES great price!!

[beechboy]

Great looking car. I spent more for my 28 Tudor last year and is nowhere close to the condition as yours. Congrats

[Hoogah]

Congrats Vespa. Looks great and will be the source of much fun and some frustration!
No-one has mentioned the white walls. Bonus!

[mhsprecher]

Piling on, but it looks great. I don't have the photo hawk eyes that a lot of people on the forum have, but it looks really good to me. Hard to believe they sold it that cheaply. Maybe a few things will show up, they always do, but still seems like a steal.

[vespaholic]

Thanks again to all for the comments, support and compliments.
I was talking to my buddy this AM, he's not an A guy but went with me to the cars & coffee yesterday and to look at the car.
I left early, he stayed later.
He knows the dealer and is friendly with the guys that own the place.
His impression was that they wanted to help the owner, this was a consignment car, but it was turning into quite a project.
Essentially the owner just wanted to get rid of it.
The owner paid for an inspection and a new battery from the dealer.
There was an issue with the title (since resolved with the state - 100% for sure) that the estate took care of before the dealer would start marketing the car.
That was a 6-7 month process while this car took up space in the dealership.
Bottom line… the dealer wanted it out of his place and the owner wanted it gone.
I guess I was at the right place at the right time…..we'll have to see once I delve into it.
I was actually initially at the dealer to look at a 1930 Rumble Seat Coupe and spotted this car sitting in the corner.
Dumb luck!!

[vespaholic]

Look what showed up yesterday morning at 8AM sharp as promised!
Spent most of the day going over the car.
I'm almost 100% sure the body has never been off the frame.
Went over it with a weak magnet and it stuck everywhere.
Cleaned the fuel system (up to the carb).
Runs but I need to hold the choke.
Lights work (except the brake) so I do not know what the deal was talking about in their inspection report.
They told me they put in a battery. I assumed new, I'm now thinking otherwise.
Adjusted the e-brake but it still needs shoes.
Anyway, I really pleased!

[ronn]

glad you are having fun!
sounds like your carb might need a little cleanout

just remember, on a day when you might be getting frustrated with your A
4100. crisp bills are here waiting to buy your A!

[Tom Wesenberg]

You're lucky, you live pretty close to Mitch and his shop, so you have easy access to expert help.

[vespaholic]

Is there any way to clean the carb while on the car?
I'd like to at least get it to idle so I can exit the car while it's running.
I'll rebuild the carb later on.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by vespaholic

Is there any way to clean the carb while on the car?
I'd like to at least get it to idle so I can exit the car while it's running.
I'll rebuild the carb later on.

Sometimes you can get lucky and pull some junk through by revving the engine then slapping your hand over the carb intake, and releasing it just before the engine dies. Do this a few times and see if it helps.

This was a common quick temporary fix for MoPar 2.2 and 2.5 engines in the 80's.

[vespaholic]

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@Tom
OK Thanks
I'll get some help here and give that a try.

[ronn]

Vespa,

you might want to install a couple of filters-pencil at the tank and one right before the line goes into the carb
this will help you get some of the gunk out and not keep clogging the carb.
also might just want to exchange the carb for a rebuilt one if you have too much trouble with keeping the car running.................

[vespaholic]

Update if anyone is interested:
I worked on the car Sunday.
New plugs, fixed the + battery cable, cleaned electrical contacts, MMO in the cylinders (over night), blew a can of carb cleaner into it while it was running, changed the oil, etc…….
Runs fairly well.
I no longer need to hold the choke like before but it likes a 1/4 turn of the knob on the choke lever to run nicely.
Carb definitely needs to be adjusted so I'll read some threads here on how that's done and try that this weekend.
Then I took it out for a ride on Sunday.
Other than the tires being flat sided all went well.
I'm getting 1935 wheels and tires from Tony M. next week so that should take care of that issue.
I wanted to see how it would start in the cold weather so I tried to start it yesterday morning when it was 32 degrees outside.
Started on the second try, so I guess that's good!
One thing I learned on my drive it that this car is cramped!
I'm designing brackets to move the driver's seat back about 6" so I can fit comfortably.
I'll also be installing lap belts, front and rear, very soon.
More later……..
I hope everyone has a Happy Thanksgiving!

[Mitch//pa]

snyders sells 6" adjusters just sayin.. or make your own as indicated.

[vespaholic]

@mitch:
I checked there and only saw the 2" units.
I'll check again.
Thanks!

[vespaholic]

Found it!
$139.00
Making my own for $10.

[Mitch//pa]

a little pricey but i have them.. they also tilt which is nice and adds extra comfort

A-47904

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by vespaholic

Found it!
$139.00
Making my own for $10.

Sounds good

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Glad to hear so far so good, regular use will help smooth things out even more!

[holdover]

You did good, I would have bought it in a heartbeat! I have a '29 coupe and a '29 CCPU looking for a tudor so I can take rides with both grand kids.

[pgerhardt]

Tudors are the best if you want extra leg room. Here is how far back my 29 tudor seat is with the 6" seat brackets.

[1crosscut]

Consider jumping in and re-building the carburetor. It is not that hard of a thing to do. Get Les Andrews Volume #1 book to use as a guide. (If you own an A you should own this book)
Buy a one gallon can / carburetor cleaning kit from your local automotive store to use for soaking and cleaning it.
I would also get the pencil filter that sticks up into the tank. This will help with keeping the crud out of your re-built carburetor.
To paint your carburetor use the fuel proof spray can paint available from Hobby Town.
Just my two cents worth.
Enjoy the heck out of the car.
I'm going out to look at a 1930 Tudor tomorrow with a new club member. I hope that we get as lucky as you in finding him a good car to start with.

[DougT]

[QUOTE=vespaholic;1195168]Update if anyone is interested:
I no longer need to hold the choke like before but it likes a 1/4 turn of the knob on the choke lever to run nicely.
Carb definitely needs to be adjusted so I'll read some threads here on how that's done and try that this weekend.

The choke rod controls the GAV (gas adj valve). I think if you search GAV, 1/4 turn isn't hateful. Think of it like being able to adjust your main jet while driving.

[JamesAC]

Glad you got the car, vespaholic. I found a 1930 deluxe coupe last year the elderly previous owner had spent several years doing a nice off-frame body restoration (gave it up due to health and other issues) and the owner previous to him had rebuilt the engine very nicely. Only thing the car lacked was the entire front end, brakes, and steering to be rebuilt and the interior done. Spent a year doing that and just put it on the road in recent weeks. The purchase was a perfect "fit" for me as I like brakes, front end, ignition, carburetors, exhaust, top-end engine work, and interior repairs and finishing, but don't have the set up for paint and body and bottom-end engine work.

I guess everyone has something that fits what they can do and feel comfortable with and that determines how they'll look at a given potential purchase, just as you looked at yours. For example, I couldn't conceive of spending $2000 to have brakes done as I did all mine myself for far less in the cost of new parts and some long winter nights spent out in the garage playing with my new toy.

And don't be afraid of getting into your carburetor. Again, from my growing up on the farm and rebuilding dozens of old tractor and 1950's to 1960's era truck and car carburetors, the carburetors on these old cars are really simple. An inexpensive rebuild kit and some fun time taking the easily disassembled thing off the car and cleaning and putting it back together will reward you with years of good service not to speak of the satisfaction of having done it yourself. And the adjustments are so easy, just an idle mixture and idle speed screws you turn to make the engine idle smoothly at the speed you want is all there is. It's fun to actually get to adjust something just the way you want compared to today's fixed fuel injection systems all controlled out of some black box hidden under all that stuff under the hood.

Best of luck with your new project.

[vespaholic]

Thanks all!
I think I'm OK with how the motor is running for the time being.
I could find no air leaks around the carb or intake manifold.
I sprayed starter fluid, carb cleaner and finally tried a propane tank to look for air being sucked in and found nothing, which is good!
I have MMO in the gas and it seems to run a little better each time I run it.
I'll search the forum for GAV.
If a 1/4 turn is reasonable then I'm not going to screw around with it.
So, I'm turning my attention to safety related stuff:
This weekend I'm making the bracket to relocate the seat 6" back so I can fit.
Then I'll be measuring and ordering seat belts for the front and rear.
I'm also going to put it up on jack stands and pull all the wheels and tires in preparation for getting my new-to-me wheels and tires next week.
While the wheels are off I'm going to check out the brakes and see what my next steps are with them.
The car drives but in my book it's way more important that the car stops! : )
It actually stops fairly well right now so I'm interested in seeing what the dealer thought was wrong.
Maybe they were being overly cautious.

[JamesAC]

Yes, agreed about brakes. You can get a lot of sympathy and interest from on-lookers and others while trying to tinker with a car that won't start or something, but little sympathy for damage done from not being able to stop it. Think of it in this priority--it's nice if they run and great when they look good doing it, but the one thing they HAVE to do is STOP.

[BlueSunoco]

Originally Posted by pgerhardt

Tudors are the best if you want extra leg room. Here is how far back my 29 tudor seat is with the 6" seat brackets.

That's pretty sweet. Also makes it easier to get the battery in and out.

[vespaholic]

I moved the seat back 6" using stuff I had laying around the garage.
It came out nicely and does not look bad at all.
Plus I designed in the ability to tilt the front of the seat up a little if I want.

The car runs and starts better and better every day.
The 1/4 turn of the choke knob is no longer required.
I guess the MMO is making it's way through the system and doing it's job.
It idles smooth and does not bog when I rev or hold at a higher rpm.

BUT…...I am now getting a knock from the engine or transmission.
Frankly I can not tell where.
I read a ton of threads on this forum about engine knocks and grounding out spark plugs to isolate a bad issue inside the engine.
No matter what single or combo spark plug I ground out makes absolutely no change in the knock.
The only way I can facilitate a slight difference in the knocking sound is by depressing the clutch.
I think I'll pull the starter and check for a loose flywheel tomorrow.
If that's not it I'll check for a loose or damaged timing gear.
After that……back to reading.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING!

[Mitch//pa]

You might have excessive crankshaft end play if pushing the clutch changes it. Push the crank back with the crank handle, then push in the clutch to measure the play

[Greg Jones]

I agree at $4k what a steal. Looks like a nice interior.

[vespaholic]

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@Mitch: OK I'll try that.
The car did not come with a hand crank.
Is there something else you could suggest I try for this test?
Also, if it has play, what can I do about it?

@Greg: Thanks.
The interior is not bad at all.
I'm pleased.

[40 Deluxe]

check for crankshaft play while you have the starter out checking the flywheel. You can feel the difference between a loose 'wheel and crank play.

[vespaholic]

@ Mitch and 40Deluxe:
You hit the nail on the head.
It was quite obvious that the flywheel is firmly on the crank.
The crank does have some play +/- 1/8" of play.
While the starter was out I gently pushed the flywheel and crank forward with a pry bar then put everything back together.
The knocking went away.
However as I ran the car for about 20 minutes it was starting to come back.
I need to drop the oil pan to change the gasket.
Can this be fixed while I've got it open or is this a major issue??
Thanks in advance!

[vespaholic]

Repacked all the wheel bearings today and checked out the brake shoes while I was in there.
I don't get why the dealer said it needed new brakes, the shoes looked ok.
There is a little binding on the left rear.
Seems like the spring that joins the 2 shoes together towards the rear of the car, is not putting enough tension.

I also looked at the lights issue and it turned out that the "cup" at the end of the steering column was not pushed up high enough.

I'm still very concerned about the crank play.
Any thoughts?

Thanks

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Vespa, maybe try a post on the AACA forum, not exclusively Model A but a lot of knowledge there as well.

[vespaholic]

@ Steve:
Yeah..I guess I'll give the AACA Forum a shot.
I thought here would be better because it's a Model A -specific forum.
As much as I want this back on the road I don't want to drive it until I figure out how to get rid of that crank play knock.
Thanks

[Mitch//pa]

i'm in Mexico so i have limited internet access
here is a quick search using "crankshaft endplay" many threads show up::::
the end result is redoing the bottom end but at that point i would do a complete rebuild

https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread...shaft+end+play

[Mitch//pa]

usually an oil leak also developes out the rear main with excessive thrust clearance

[vespaholic]

@Mitch:
Enjoy Mexico and thanks for reaching out!
Yes I have a rear seal oil leak as well.
I guess I'll drop the pan and sees what I find.
Do you think that snugging up the bearing caps would do any harm?

The car came with the original motor so I guess I'll call Schwalm's tomorrow.

PS: I was searching "crank end play". I got much better results searching "crankshaft endplay". Thanks for the tip.

[Mitch//pa]

in dont see any harm but most likely when you start dropping caps it will stay apart pending a rebuild... another place i recommend is http://www.antiqueenginerebuilding.com
even though schwalms is very close to us Rich has very reasonable shipping options. i use his insert engines, have been very happy with the product. he makes the insert rods that gets sold to all the suppliers and rebuilders..personally i wont do another babbitt motor to many variables involved...
off to the beach::::

[vespaholic]

I'll reach out to Rich tomorrow.
Thanks!
Enjoy the beach!

[Tony Martino]

Man Ain't the Barn amazing!
Bet you never thought you'd get so much help!
See you Thursday!
BTW why do you think they call them Bangers!

[vespaholic]

@Tony: See You Thursday!
Yup…lots of help.
And, it's all appreciated.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

i'm in Mexico so i have limited internet access

Bet is sure beats the weather back home!

[vespaholic]

OK, now I feel a little stupid.

I pulled out the floor mat & wood floor and opened the clutch inspection plate on the top of the bell housing.

It appears that my phantom noise is coming from someplace down there and not from the engine…..thank goodness!

When I mash the clutch as far down as it will go the sound diminishes a fair amount.

When I put it in gear and let the clutch out (BTW: The car is on 4 jack stands) I can feather the RPMs and almost get the sound to go away.

I'm thinking that the issue is somewhere from the flywheel back.

Any suggestions on where to start or what terms to search here for advice???

Also, when I was under the car I noticed that a cotter pin (or something that looks like a cotter pin) is hanging out of the bottom hole in the bell housing towards the motor.

As always…..thanks!

[Tom Wesenberg]

The cotter pin is to keep the hole open for oil to drip out.
If you have the noise in first and second gear, but not in high gear, that would indicate the roller bearing between the input and output shafts is bad. That was the case with my tranny when I bought the car. Every part of the tranny was like NOS, except that bearing had a couple bad rollers, and the amount of noise it made was unreal.

[vespaholic]

@Tom: I'm not sure about that, I'll check tonight.
It's on jack stands so shifting to all gears is not a problem.

[inex01]

Originally Posted by vespaholic

1930 Model A Tudor
Restored +/- 20 years ago.
It's been sitting but runs.
Very cool patina which I really like.
I went over the body with a fine toothed comb. Very solid and looks to be all original sheet metal.

Here's what it needs according the the vintage car dealer that has it:
Carb Leaks fuel
Won't idle long without the choke pulled partially open
Low beams do not work
High beams do not work
Rear parking light does not work
Brake light does not work
Need Brake shoes all around
Needs emergency brake shoes
Needs Oil Change
No coolant in system
Needs new + battery cable
Vac wipers do not work.
Gas tank has a bunch of crap in it.
(It also needs tires but that's not part of the deal)

They want $4000 for the car.
They said they would fix everything listed for no less than $1500 to no more than $2000.

So all in I could have a running driving safe A for $6000 or less.

Is that a good price?

My time is a factor as I travel a lot on business, so having it running driving and stopping safely would be a plus.

I think it may be but I'd like a second, third…..20th opinion.

BTW: It does not have the original engine in it BUT, it does come with the original engine out of the car.

Thanks in advance.

PS: They already put a new battery in it.

Before I purchased my 1st Model A I joined the local Model A Club and about six months after joining the club I purchased my 31 Slant Window with assistance from club members, my advise is for you to do the same you will find the people in the club very helpful in finding a good solid car for you. The old saying "Haste makes waste" applies if you rush you will spend more money. My strong suggestion is do not purchase this car.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by inex01

Before I purchased my 1st Model A I joined the local Model A Club and about six months after joining the club I purchased my 31 Slant Window with assistance from club members, my advise is for you to do the same you will find the people in the club very helpful in finding a good solid car for you. The old saying "Haste makes waste" applies if you rush you will spend more money. My strong suggestion is do not purchase this car.

i take it you did not read all the posts

[inex01]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

i take it you did not read all the posts

Nope, is that a problem?

[inex01]

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Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

i take it you did not read all the posts

Oh, I see! well I BLEW IT!!!!! so sorry!!!!

[vespaholic]

@chuck: yup too late. Besides, what fun would that be??

[Tom Wesenberg]

Actually the car was a very good purchase for the price, even if a few problems came with it.
Sometimes you have to go with your gut feeling when making a purchase. I think "will I be able to resell it and not loose money, if I change my mind" when trying to decide whether or not to buy something.

How many people would drive 2,000 miles round trip to pick up a $200 lawn mower? My friends thought I was crazy.........until they saw the mower. I slept in the car and paid $130 for gas, so it was still a good purchase done off a small partial picture of the mower, which was on craigslist. From the small partial picture, I thought it looked like the mower was in excellent condition. I had the same feeling about the Model A as it was described and priced.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

When you push on the clutch you're moving the crank forword to the thrust limit.
I just skimmed the posts, so I may have missed if you've checked end play by watching the front pulley while pushing the clutch.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Actually the car was a very good purchase for the price, even if a few problems came with it.
Sometimes you have to go with your gut feeling when making a purchase. I think "will I be able to resell it and not loose money, if I change my mind" when trying to decide whether or not to buy something.

How many people would drive 2,000 miles round trip to pick up a $200 lawn mower? My friends thought I was crazy.........until they saw the mower. I slept in the car and paid $130 for gas, so it was still a good purchase done off a small partial picture of the mower, which was on craigslist. From the small partial picture, I thought it looked like the mower was in excellent condition. I had the same feeling about the Model A as it was described and priced.

[vespaholic]

UPDATE:
So far, I've done everything on the dealers initial list except for dealing with the leaky carb and the wiper.
Although the wiper does work, sort of. Must be gummed up.
The brakes had at least 50% on the rear (more on the front) so I adjusted them per a video I found on YouTube.
Stops better than I thought a A would stop.
Then I took it out for a drive.
I love this thing, what a blast to drive!!
My only regret is that I did not hold out for an open top car!!!
I did not think it would bug me but I hate roofs….

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Glad to hear that you are enjoying your new car, Vespa! The nice thing about the closed models is you can extend the season a bit, but if we have a mild winter I expect to use the roadster if at all possible! :-)

[modelAtony]

vespaholic. Great deal on your new car. You will be very happy with the Tudor, You have a closed car for bad and cold weather the longer you have it the more you'll like it. Here is where it really gets to be fun sometimes around a year or 2 later you will be ready for a OPEN car, YES you will learn everyone needs 2 model A's summer car and winter car LIFE DON'T GET NO BETTER THAN THIS. Have fun modelAtony tony white Lafayette, LA

[vespaholic]

@Steve & modelAtony:
All my other cars are open top except the truck.
I just like the open cars better.
I run my cars all year, as long as there is no salt on the road.
I don't know….a roadster is calling my name! LOL
Keep an eye out…this puppy my be listed if I find a roadster.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Open cars are overrated.
With an open car you need a bigger heater.
I never put the top down on my 28 Phaeton, and wish it had side curtains.
The trouble with side curtains is they block your vision.

[vespaholic]

Heat is for woosies…LOL!