What exactly is my Model A?

[jdp8402]

I believe my car to be a 1929 Cabriolet but how do i know for sure? Is there a website that I can use to see what I have for sure? Also how do I find out more about the cabriolet? Were there any options for that model? Did it come with a convertible top? I've tried searching the internet but I can't seem to find anything that is cabriolet specific.

Thanks,
Jeff

[loubob]

Pics and Vin# needed for starters.

[lookin-backtexas]

If your car has a soft top that is "fixed" meaning it won't go down, it's probably a Sport Coupe; if it has a soft top that will go down and has roll up windows, it's a Cabriolet. If it has a soft top that goes down and has no windows, it's a Roadster. Photos would help.

[Rowdy]

Cabbies have wood subrails. One way to tell for sure. Please post pic's. Rod

[Bob C]

Go to this link and click on description for a picture.
http://www.mafca.com/data_bodycodes_a.html

Bob

[jdp8402]

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I'll post some pictures when I get home tonight. It is a soft top that is fixed. What is supposed to be in it for a back window?

[jm29henry]

Sport coupe .?

[jdp8402]

I would say that it is a sport coupe according to the pictures on the website you provided. It says body style 50-A. Is there any kind of markings on the car that would confirm that?

[jdp8402]

Also is the vin number the number on the motor?

[C26Pinelake]

My avatar is a 29 Cabriolet. The secret is soft top that folds down with roll up windows. Wayne

[2manycars]

Originally Posted by jdp8402

Also is the vin number the number on the motor?

yes

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by jdp8402

Also is the vin number the number on the motor?

The answer needs to come from your state DMV. Originally when the motor passed final inspection it was assigned a serial number. At the time the car was assembled this number was stamped into the top of the left frame rail at a location just behind the cowl where it was not visible without lifting the body. The number from the engine was used to identify the car. When the engine was changed the owner was supposed to notify DMV of the new serial number. Some rebuilders simply stamped the old number into the new engine. To tighten things up most DMV's began assigning their own number which was on a plate they attached to the door jam. In California at least 40 years ago if your engine number matched the paperwork they would just add an identification plate without a lot of questions. If it didn't match they would ask you to unbolt the body and lift it to see the number under the body. The actual term VIN originated in the fifties when the automakers/government got together and established a formal numbering system to be used throughout the industry.

Charlie Stephens

[jdp8402]

I'm pretty sure it's a sport coupe.

[jdp8402]

This plate is in the door jam and it does match the number on the engine block.

[Charlville]

This looks a lot like my Sport Coupe, but without the Landau Irons.

Take a look here as it might help:

http://automotiveamerican.com/2014/0...d-sport-coupe/

[James Rogers]

Sport Coupe missing the landau arms. The plate is a replacement that should be on the firewall and the number should not match the engine. The number should be xxx-xxxx. This designates body style by the first 3 numbers and the assembly number by the last 4 or more. Sport coupes have full door frames around the windows.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Also your car has 1930-1 stainless headlamps on it.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by jdp8402

This plate is in the door jam and it does match the number on the engine block.

That plate is an after market plate that now has the "vin".

[jdp8402]

What is the point of the landau arms? Where is a good source for top parts?

[ronn]

the point of the landau arms was to make the car look "rich" as a cabriolet. Kind of like the vinyl top craze of the 70's.

snyders or macs has repro arms in aluminum I believe.

[Charlville]

Landau arms are just to make it look pretty I'd start at Bert's for parts modelastore.com

[John Stone]

It could be a Business Coupe. They didn't have Landau arms.

[Charlville]

I'd hazard a guess that it "used" to have a rumble seat as I can see the grab handle in the picture. All cars of this age are a mystery, which is half the fun BTW, mine also has the later headlamps

[Marshall V. Daut]

The cowl configuration w/exposed gas tank alone excludes Cabriolet as a possibility. The presence of a visor and exterior door window frames clinches that. Sport Coupes came standard with a rumble seat, which excludes this car with a trunk. 1928-29 Business Coupes did not have the oval window until mid-way through 1929. The black steering wheel makes this a 1929 Model, unless it has been changed. I can't see the rear tail light to determine early or late 1929. My guess is that because of the trunk and lack of landau irons that this is an early (pre-June) 1929 BUSINESS COUPE. I hope the owner keeps it that way and resists the temptation to "dress it up" with landau irons and a rumble seat conversion. LOTS more real and faked Sport Coupes running around than '28-29 Business Coupes with trunk and no landau irons. Landau irons could have been purchased from the dealer to add some sportiness to an otherwise plain-jane Business Coupe, but they are incorrect for this body style as it came from the factory. It's been a Business Coupe for the past 87-88 years. Hopefully it will stay that way (with the correct color top material added someday).
Marshall,
1929 Cabriolet owner

[Marshall V. Daut]

By the way, the "grab handles" are not correct for this body style and were originally intended to serve as top rest supports when the top was folded down, not as rumble seat grab handles. Of course, these handles probably got more use as grab handles on cars with rumble seats. But roadsters without rumble seats featured these top rest supports, so that was their intended function.
Marshall

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

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Friend, Tom, has a quite original '29 Sport Coupe. He is a retired BOAT upholsterer & crafted a Saddle Brown Naugahyde top, with matching FULL headliner! He said that it, along with the firewall silencer panel, made the car SO MUCH QUIETER.
Bill W.

[Charlville]

Hi Marshall

Thanks for the handle info, this may have solved a question for me as my rumble seat business coupe does not have the handles, this now makes sense!

[jdp8402]

The car does have a rumble seat. Sorry about the picture. It was dark out and my garage is a mess so I could only get one side view. I'll try to post some more pictures with it outside.

[Clem Clement]

There is a cabriolet web site.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

The so called "rumble seat handles" were originally designed for top rests for the roasters, when the top was down.
I've seen them installed on the "B" posts of coupes & tudors, to aid in climbing into the cars.
Bill W.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Well, that DOES change things, doesn't it? I couldn't see a deck lid rumble seat handle in the photo. Missing or did I simply miss it? Is this an original rumble seat or a restorer's conversion? Lots of telltale signs of both, such as extra holes along the top sides of the decklid usually not being filled in after a rumble seat conversion. The lower stop stands are often improperly installed, too.
But let's assume this car was originally a Sport Coupe and not a Business Coupe. There should be special brackets inside the top for landau iron attachment that a Business Coupe wouldn't have had. I believe there is one on top of the wooden belt rail and one up higher on a flat iron bracket. 'Been a long time since I looked at a Sport Coupe top, but I'm certain those brackets/anchors will not be present in a Business Coupe.
At least we know for SURE that it is not a Cabriolet!
Marshall

[jdp8402]

The handle is broke so it's not on there. That's on my list of parts.

[jdp8402]

I guess I'm not sure if it's an original rumble seat. I'll take some pictures of that as well as some interior pictures.

[Dick Carne]

From the picture you included, I couldn't tell for certain, but it appeared that you might have a trunk instead of a rumble seat. Is so, you would have a "Business Coupe" instead of a Sport Coupe. The Business Couple would not have had landau irons, and would have had the trunk instead of a rumble seat. Looks like a nice car either way - I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

[KGBnut]

Wouldn't the "Business Coupe" have the oval side windows? I think those are pretty rare.

[todd3131]

One thing that is missing is the extremely hard to find belt rail.this tells me that wood was rotten and possibly the landau irons may have been lost or taken for another car.

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by Charlville

I'd hazard a guess that it "used" to have a rumble seat as I can see the grab handle in the picture. .

They aren't grab rails. They only came from the factory on Roadsters. The top rested on them when folded down.

[jdp8402]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

They aren't grab rails. They only came from the factory on Roadsters. The top rested on them when folded down.

I'm not questioning you but I'd say their grab rails. The only reason that I say that is because the top doesn't go down as far as I can tell.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by jdp8402

I'm not questioning you but I'd say their grab rails. The only reason that I say that is because the top doesn't go down as far as I can tell.

Some people use them as grab rails, but the factory only installed them as rests for the folded top, when it's lowered.

[TonyM]

Originally Posted by jdp8402

I'm not questioning you but I'd say their grab rails. The only reason that I say that is because the top doesn't go down as far as I can tell.

They are not "grab rails". As stated several times above, those pieces are for the roadster top to rest on when it is in the down position. The fact that your "top doesn't go down" indicates that some one added those pieces well after the car left the factory.

[jdp8402]

I'm guessing the rumble seat was added.

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by John Stone

It could be a Business Coupe. They didn't have Landau arms.

This is a 29. 1929 business coupes had the oval windows. See my avatar. About 36,000 were made. Your car, if it's really a 29, is a sport coupe missing the landau irons. If it's a 28, it could be either a business coupe or a sport coupe. Adding the irons would make the difference.

[Lycoming-8]

I have a 1929 Business coupe, with a Feb date on the gas tank firewall. It has a drum tail light, handbrake lever in front of the shifter lever, correct headlights, and NO Oval window. It also has no landau irons, or brackets for them. The diagonal top bow, which extends up and back from the triangular bracket behind the door, passes right thru the area where a later car's oval window would have been.

These cars do exist, but they are rarely seen !!!

[jdp8402]

Thank you all for your help. Are there any other pictures that I could take that will help?

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Charleville,
DANDY looking car & the rumble seat looks REALLY GOOD!!
Without the oval windows, you can conduct "business" in relative privacy!!
Bill W.

[Marshall V. Daut]

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Once again, guys - the early (pre-June) 1929 Business Coupe did NOT have the oval windows in the top. Ford added that to dress the car up a bit and to quietcomplaints about poor quarter panel vision. I guess he didn't care about the Sport Coupe and Cabriolet owners, who still had poor quarter panel vision.
Marshall

[jdp8402]

But according to my vin # wasn't mine built in July 1929? And if it is shouldn't it have the oval windows? I'm not disagreeing with anyone on here. I just want to try and figure out what I have for sure.

[jdp8402]

Are there any numbers stamped on the body that would help identify what it is?

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by jdp8402

Are there any numbers stamped on the body that would help identify what it is?

Left side frame had a number stamped when the engine was placed in the car.

[jdp8402]

I knew there was a number on the frame but I wasn't really wanting to pull the body off. How hard is it to lift the body high enough to see the number?

[Marshall V. Daut]

One would think that a July, 1929 Business Coupe would probably have the oval windows by that time. But each factory was different. Some implemented new features as soon as they arrived, while others used up existing stocks/filled orders before installing new features. Examples would be outside door handles on open cars and vacuum windshield wipers, all depending upon suppliers and the assembly plants themselves. Your July car was built within 30 days of the change = anything can happen.
The top on your car has clearly been changed somewhere along the line. If it had been a Business Coupe with oval side windows, they were not re-installed. If this was one of the last 1929 Business Coupes made without these windows, that would explain their absence now. I still think that the definitive answer can be found by a close inspection of the trunk/rumbleseat area. Look for telltale signs of a restorer-added rumble seat:
(1) anchor pin holes not filled in along the decklid sides up top
(2) poorly filled-in handle hole at the bottom on a trunk lid
(3) poorly installed rear inner curved panel between the outer lower panel (where the spare tire carrier is located) and the seat platform (which is present in both configurations)
(4) decklid lower stop brackets bolted to the sheet metal panels instead of being riveted
(5) rumbleseat hinges installed with sheet metal screws
(6) seat backrest poorly attached to the decklid = flops around or big gap along top
(7) poorly aligned decklid vis-à-vis opening for the lid, side-to-side and top-to-bottom
(8) No slot cut inside the decklid up top for the handle's latch catch finger to exit
(9) no bracket or holes in the upper rain gutter rail for the handle's catch finger
(10) no angled guide plates installed in the rain gutter to help align the decklid side-to-side.
If you can determine that the rumbleseat was there from the factory, your car was probably originally a Sport Coupe that someone neglected to re-install the landau irons, which rust easily and break. I believe once this issue is settled one way or another, you can decide which body style your car originally was.
By the way, were there any of those landau iron anchor brackets present that I mentioned in an earlier posting?
Marshall

[jdp8402]

Marshall, thank you for the reply. I'm almost certain that the rumble seat is not factory. I posted a picture earlier that shows two holes on the top side of the trunk lid that I assume were holes for hinges. I'll post the picture again. I also noticed after taking pictures that the paint is cracked in the middle lower part of the trunk lid. I'm guessing that's where the original handle was for the trunk. The previous owner probably just filled the hole with bondo.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Agreed on both counts that you state, and both are very common traits seen in rumble seat conversions. Place a good magnet over the cracking paint on the lower part of the decklid where the original handle hole was. If the magnet doesn't stick, it's most likely Bondo beneath, which is very often just plastered in the hole. The Bondo, of course, shrinks as it cures, taking any paint on top with it = cracking/crazing. A very common amateur restoration problem.
I am still of the opinion that you have a 1929 Business Coupe, which may or may not have had port windows in the top. Does the car have a drum taillight mounted to the lower rear body subframe or is the taillight mounted on the left rear fender? That also helps determine early (pre-May or June) or late 1929 models, allowing for minor factory timeline deviations. Seven-tooth or two-tooth steering column?
Marshall

[jdp8402]

The taillight is mounted on the left fender. How do i tell if it's a seven or two tooth steering column? I'm agreeing that it is a business coupe. Here's a screen shot from the Craigslist ad. It's kind of a bad picture. I'll try to get a better one later.

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

Once again, guys - the early (pre-June) 1929 Business Coupe did NOT have the oval windows in the top. Ford added that to dress the car up a bit and to quietcomplaints about poor quarter panel vision. I guess he didn't care about the Sport Coupe and Cabriolet owners, who still had poor quarter panel vision.
Marshall

Right Marshall. I forgot about the late date introduction of the oval windows on 29s. Though the date on my firewall is May 1929, and the VIN confirms this date.

[Marshall V. Daut]

700rpm -
You must have one of the early batch of 1929 Business Coupes with the new oval windows. Great looking car, especially with the brown top material. I have seen a couple Business Coupes with the oval windows mounted in white/tan material, but yours looks better to me. 'Always wanted one of these coupes with oval windows, but the opportunity never presented itself. Maybe someday...

jdp8402 -
Since the taillight is mounted on the rear fender, chances are 50/50 that your Business Coupe had oval windows, as the taillight was relocated from the body to the fender in the May-June timeframe. If your car is later than July, 1929, it most certainly did have the windows by then. May-June could be if'y, depending upon the assembly plant.
This May-June timeframe was also when the change from seven-tooth to two-tooth steering systems took effect in passenger cars. It's easy to tell the two apart. At the steering box, the seven-tooth has only a zerk fitting or a filler pipe plug on top of the housing tube, while the two-tooth box has the zerk or plug, plus a clamp between the box and column tube. There are also a couple adjustment nuts visible on the side facing the fender. Up on the quadrant, seven-tooth columns have a longer notched quadrant arc, while the '29 two-tooth column has a shorter path with large "ears" on either end. You won't be able to see it with the light switch in place, but the seven-tooth steering wheel is splined, while the two-tooth is keyed. Modern repo steering wheels are made both ways for switching between steering systems. This makes it possible to put a red 1928 or black 1929 splined steering wheel on a '29-31 two-tooth keyed steering shaft. But that's another story.
If in doubt which steering system you have, post a photo of your steering box from the driver's side.
Marshall

[jdp8402]

Hope this helps.

[Rowdy]

Definately a 2 tooth. Better box than the 7 tooth. Now curious if it is the 1929 style 2 tooth or a 30-31. The difference is in the markings, length of tube and style of quadrant. The 29 2 tooth is somewhat rare and pretty desirable. The 30-31 is pretty common. Also there are many who use the 30-31 box and cut down a tube from a 7 tooth and make their own that look like a correct 29 style in the interior. I have made several of these in the last 15 years for local people. Rod

[Dick Carne]

KGBNut ... In response to your question about all Business Coupes having the oval side windows, my understanding was that this feature was limited to maybe just the early '29 models. I've been wrong before - perhaps someone else could enlighten us both. Good comment.

Dick

[Marshall V. Daut]

'Sorry, Dick. Just the opposite = the mid-1929 and later Business Coupes that year had the oval windows. Pre-May or pre-June Business Coupes were like their 1928 brothers, meaning no oval windows.
Marshall

[Charlville]

Love these type of threads, very educational

[jdp8402]

Originally Posted by Charlville

Love these type of threads, very educational

Especially for someone that doesn't know much about model A's but jumped right in like me. Thank you everyone for all the help and information.

[Charlville]

Nobody knows it all, many think they do, I don't, so I ask those who know more than I do

[DougT]

Not to derail the thread but along the same lines. Did Ford make an early 28 business coupe with the left hand E brake lever or only sport coupes in that era? If you had a bare body with no deck lid or interior/top are there any other tell tales of which it originally was?

[Rowdy]

I think the business coupe came out in June of 28. I would have to dig out the JS to confirm what my memory seems to recall as being correct. Rod

[Tudortomnz]

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Biz Coupe first announced in Ford News Dealers Supplement April 1st '28. Available about May.
I know an early one here, body CO 04206 [early # from Detroit] with r/h brake lever ; it is Canadian RHD & exported to NZ.
Wayne.

[John Stone]

My BC (which I sold) was an early with LH brake handle. VIN was in the 94,000 range. Heard of one a little earlier in CA back in the 80's when I was restoring mine. The bill of sale says it was sold in July 28 in Carpio ND. All that stuff now resides with the new owner. Kind of miss it but only drove it 3,000 miles in 29 years. Too many cars to drive.