The Ford Barn

hale1776 · 12-21-2014, 04:30 PM

Mike,
Clearly you have superior knowledge of the science than I do. The float Bowl is "open to atmosphere" once you open valve the vented gas cap is your opening. Granted when closed it is not but I have no plans to drive with it closed. On the Zenith itself the problem isn't its value but its design, the float is nearly the same size as the bowl preventing a trouble free connection. Your idea of using the drain bolt on carb is brilliant but the heater gas line can not be any longer than 28 inches as my heater is installed on drivers side it will not reach the Zenith or any attachment to one. My choice is float bowl , downdraft carburetor and manifold, or separate fuel tank for heater.

MikeK · 12-21-2014, 09:35 PM

1) ... The float Bowl is "open to atmosphere" once you open valve the vented gas cap is your opening. Granted when closed it is not but I have no plans to drive with it closed.

We're talking about the iron fuel strainer some people have against the firewall, right? Even with the vented gas cap, if you seal a line into it the Southwind will "see" several inches of head pressure as the fuel capillary will be sealed in below the top liquid level.

Southwind's use of the carb or auxiliary bowl as a source presents effectively zero head pressure as the line siphons from above the liquid level in a vented bowl. That is what they mean by "Open to atmosphere". Not taking fuel from the bottom of a tank that is open at the top.

2) ... Your idea of using the drain bolt on carb is brilliant but the heater gas line can not be any longer than 28 inches as my heater is installed on drivers side it will not reach the Zenith or any attachment to one. My choice is float bowl , downdraft carburetor and manifold, or separate fuel tank for heater.

Yes, I understand your length problem and did address that. "If that capillary doesn't reach where you want you can add a larger diameter extension section, like 1/4 or 5/16 line." I know I write too much, but go back and read that paragraph for more details.

If you go the remote bowl route as posted by Mark Maron keep in mind that any addition of fittings and a tee 'd in line filled with fuel within the engine compartment will exacerbate fuel boiling and vapor lock in hot weather. Some people do not believe in fuel boiling and vapor lock. I saw it demonstrated in a physics lab while an engineering undergrad in the late 60's. Complete with more calculus to explain it than most people ever want to see. Time for me to shut up. You'll LOVE your southwind.

hale1776 · 12-22-2014, 01:22 AM

Mike imagine I am not a mechanical engineer, nor a fabricator while I can grasp what you are saying your thoughtful solutions, I regret, are beyond my ability. I will have to struggle on with some simpler solution. Thank you for taking the time to write.

armchair67 · 12-22-2014, 07:39 AM

The banjo fitting is an interesting idea, and if I can make that up it might be the best solution.

My dad worked at Stewart Warner, in their auto instrument division, on Diversey, in the 1960s-not quite the same as your dad Mike, but close!

msmaron · 12-22-2014, 12:34 PM

Just got these instructions delivered on the bowl...

mark

hale1776 · 12-23-2014, 04:09 PM

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Update new switch came in today swapped for the old one but still have a dead short somewhere....contacted re-builder in Canada looks like a long cold winter.

msmaron · 12-24-2014, 03:24 PM

Just got this complete? Kit from Larry Lewis, the outside bowl complete with float and accessories.

Afordman31 · 12-24-2014, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msmaron

Just got this complete? Kit from Larry Lewis, the outside bowl complete with float and accessories.

Msmaron
Is this a Southwind part? I haven't seen these before. Afordman31

hale1776 · 01-02-2015, 05:49 PM

Afordman31 yes on the outside bowl being a Southwind part it was sold as an accessory. I have considered cannibalizing an old carburetor cutting off everything but the float chamber JB Weld holes, Larry charges 80.00 for this setup. I purchased my heater from him as well, I have shipped original back to him and replacement is heading my way. He is a nice guy and I would recommend him.

msmaron · 01-02-2015, 06:03 PM

Yes it is, it is designed to clip onto the SIDE Of the bowl so there is NO Drilling into the bowl at all. It can be placed on the fire wall also

hale1776 · 01-07-2015, 10:41 PM

New OLD stock heater arrived today....to cold to install......:-(

Tom Wesenberg · 01-07-2015, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hale1776

New OLD stock heater arrived today....to cold to install......:-(

Catch 22.........it's like the hole in the roof. No nned to patch it when it's not raining.

hale1776 · 01-13-2015, 09:36 PM

Sorry for delay but its been real cold here and my garage is not heated. So Brand NOS heater arrived and is now installed, power coming from driver side screw in junction box, vacuum from wiper boss on manifold, gas from a jar with a hole in it. Started car, ran fine pulled on switch and could hear change in engine as vacuum was used...no ignition, no heat. Today pulled gas line off back of heater there was gas so it is drawing fuel and when I turn it on it draws 10 amps. So it has power, vacuum and gas but no ignition. I have checked all connections but no solution has presented itself. Scratching head drove it today when it was 18 degrees once it warmed up the car ran great. Tried driving down a hill on highway doing 55 and let off the gas completely and turned on heater, that should have been max vacuum. Any ideas?

hale1776 · 01-21-2015, 12:30 PM

The Gas-line and how it works. Drop tube goes in fuel, end of this tube is crimped closed at factory then about a 1/16 inch up it is sawed to create opening for fuel (tiny) next fuel goes into a reservoir tube which has tiny air holes which become the first of three places that air is added before combustion. This was designed so a gas vapor is being pulled through gas line instead of liquid gas. Next is that 28 inch line that can not be shortened or lengthened which feeds into gas inlet on back of heater. the short vertical section before it makes a 90 degree turn into heater is the carburetor. Fuel vapor comes straight down into a chamber with a nozzle at the bottom but air holes all around the middle which is covered by a shield but still open to air. This is the second place air is added to mixture. next is the iron casting this arrangement is screwed into and a flat rectangle bi metal plate with a tiny square peg that goes into a tiny hole in casting this plate is heat sensitive and works as the choke for the carburetor as it expands from heat. This hole is the third place air is added to the mixture. Manual says fuel supply can be no more than 12 inches above heater and they picked the float bowl of carburetor as previously been mentioned because there is no head pressure to screw up the fuel mixture. what looks and sounds like a simple fuel line is anything but.

Bob C · 01-21-2015, 12:54 PM

So do we have heat yet

Bob

hale1776 · 01-25-2015, 06:58 PM

No....Got good vacuum, sucked fuel out of jar down to hole had to refill, switching heater on draws 10 amps but no heat no ignition. Wondering if positive ground could be a factor.
Igniter feels cold when switched on.

1931 flamingo · 01-25-2015, 07:32 PM

Try posting a short synopsis of your "adventure" over on the EV8 board. There are several over there using SouthWinds. They may have a solution.

Paul in CT Storm coming.

hale1776 · 01-26-2015, 01:18 PM

Just got an email from Larry in Canada I had asked if his car was Negative ground which it is. It is possible that in needs to be wired Negative ground. This would in-tail isolating it from firewall (its ground) and running a positive and negative to heater. Both gas line and vacuum line have rubber so neither is a ground. If anyone has any tips on running a 6 volt Negative ground item on a positive ground vehicle chime in any time. A huge snowstorm approaching Connecticut so be a while to get to it. Considering how easy it is to loose electrical ground on a Model A I don't see it as insurmountable.

hale1776 · 01-26-2015, 01:20 PM

PS Nothing in service manual about ground but it could have been written when all cars were mostly negative ground by then.

MikeK · 01-26-2015, 02:58 PM

Not a polarity problem. The fan motor has a wound field and doesn't care, the ignitor is resistive and doesn't care.

The No start problem is likely the ignitor. The ignitors have a service life, at which point they become fouled from fuel ash and carbon. This increases their amp draw. Occasionally they completely short to ground.

Remove the ignitor assembly and clean it if you can. I know of some that have been made functional again by washing with a spray can of carb cleaner followed by light soda blasting. The element is way too fragile for glass beads or, gasp, anything else.

If you need a new one, they are a rare find. It is possible to rebuild one, but I don't have spec's on the internal heater element.

12-21-2014, 04:30 PM	#41
hale1776 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Connecticut Posts: 130	Re: Southwind & Zenith Mike, Clearly you have superior knowledge of the science than I do. The float Bowl is "open to atmosphere" once you open valve the vented gas cap is your opening. Granted when closed it is not but I have no plans to drive with it closed. On the Zenith itself the problem isn't its value but its design, the float is nearly the same size as the bowl preventing a trouble free connection. Your idea of using the drain bolt on carb is brilliant but the heater gas line can not be any longer than 28 inches as my heater is installed on drivers side it will not reach the Zenith or any attachment to one. My choice is float bowl , downdraft carburetor and manifold, or separate fuel tank for heater.

12-21-2014, 09:35 PM	#42
MikeK Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Windy City Posts: 2,919	Re: Southwind & Zenith 1) ... The float Bowl is "open to atmosphere" once you open valve the vented gas cap is your opening. Granted when closed it is not but I have no plans to drive with it closed. We're talking about the iron fuel strainer some people have against the firewall, right? Even with the vented gas cap, if you seal a line into it the Southwind will "see" several inches of head pressure as the fuel capillary will be sealed in below the top liquid level. Southwind's use of the carb or auxiliary bowl as a source presents effectively zero head pressure as the line siphons from above the liquid level in a vented bowl. That is what they mean by "Open to atmosphere". Not taking fuel from the bottom of a tank that is open at the top. 2) ... Your idea of using the drain bolt on carb is brilliant but the heater gas line can not be any longer than 28 inches as my heater is installed on drivers side it will not reach the Zenith or any attachment to one. My choice is float bowl , downdraft carburetor and manifold, or separate fuel tank for heater. Yes, I understand your length problem and did address that. "If that capillary doesn't reach where you want you can add a larger diameter extension section, like 1/4 or 5/16 line." I know I write too much, but go back and read that paragraph for more details. If you go the remote bowl route as posted by Mark Maron keep in mind that any addition of fittings and a tee 'd in line filled with fuel within the engine compartment will exacerbate fuel boiling and vapor lock in hot weather. Some people do not believe in fuel boiling and vapor lock. I saw it demonstrated in a physics lab while an engineering undergrad in the late 60's. Complete with more calculus to explain it than most people ever want to see. Time for me to shut up. You'll LOVE your southwind.

12-22-2014, 01:22 AM	#43
hale1776 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Connecticut Posts: 130	Re: Southwind & Zenith Mike imagine I am not a mechanical engineer, nor a fabricator while I can grasp what you are saying your thoughtful solutions, I regret, are beyond my ability. I will have to struggle on with some simpler solution. Thank you for taking the time to write.

12-22-2014, 07:39 AM	#44
armchair67 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Chicago, IL USA Posts: 115	Re: Southwind & Zenith The banjo fitting is an interesting idea, and if I can make that up it might be the best solution. My dad worked at Stewart Warner, in their auto instrument division, on Diversey, in the 1960s-not quite the same as your dad Mike, but close!

12-23-2014, 04:09 PM	#46
hale1776 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Connecticut Posts: 130	Re: Southwind & Zenith Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Update new switch came in today swapped for the old one but still have a dead short somewhere....contacted re-builder in Canada looks like a long cold winter.

01-02-2015, 05:49 PM	#49
hale1776 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Connecticut Posts: 130	Re: Southwind & Zenith Afordman31 yes on the outside bowl being a Southwind part it was sold as an accessory. I have considered cannibalizing an old carburetor cutting off everything but the float chamber JB Weld holes, Larry charges 80.00 for this setup. I purchased my heater from him as well, I have shipped original back to him and replacement is heading my way. He is a nice guy and I would recommend him.

01-02-2015, 06:03 PM	#50
msmaron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wauconda, IL Posts: 3,600	Re: Southwind & Zenith Yes it is, it is designed to clip onto the SIDE Of the bowl so there is NO Drilling into the bowl at all. It can be placed on the fire wall also __________________ Mark Maron Ill., Region MARC & MAFCA MARC JSC Member MAFFI Trustee National Facebook Admin. https://www.facebook.com/groups/MARC.group/ A7191-Sport Coupe 29 Roadster 29-Town Sedan 29-Original Special Coupe

01-07-2015, 10:41 PM	#51
hale1776 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Connecticut Posts: 130	Re: Southwind & Zenith New OLD stock heater arrived today....to cold to install......:-(

01-13-2015, 09:36 PM	#53
hale1776 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Connecticut Posts: 130	Re: Southwind & Zenith Sorry for delay but its been real cold here and my garage is not heated. So Brand NOS heater arrived and is now installed, power coming from driver side screw in junction box, vacuum from wiper boss on manifold, gas from a jar with a hole in it. Started car, ran fine pulled on switch and could hear change in engine as vacuum was used...no ignition, no heat. Today pulled gas line off back of heater there was gas so it is drawing fuel and when I turn it on it draws 10 amps. So it has power, vacuum and gas but no ignition. I have checked all connections but no solution has presented itself. Scratching head drove it today when it was 18 degrees once it warmed up the car ran great. Tried driving down a hill on highway doing 55 and let off the gas completely and turned on heater, that should have been max vacuum. Any ideas? Last edited by hale1776; 01-13-2015 at 09:42 PM.

01-21-2015, 12:30 PM	#54
hale1776 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Connecticut Posts: 130	Re: Southwind & Zenith The Gas-line and how it works. Drop tube goes in fuel, end of this tube is crimped closed at factory then about a 1/16 inch up it is sawed to create opening for fuel (tiny) next fuel goes into a reservoir tube which has tiny air holes which become the first of three places that air is added before combustion. This was designed so a gas vapor is being pulled through gas line instead of liquid gas. Next is that 28 inch line that can not be shortened or lengthened which feeds into gas inlet on back of heater. the short vertical section before it makes a 90 degree turn into heater is the carburetor. Fuel vapor comes straight down into a chamber with a nozzle at the bottom but air holes all around the middle which is covered by a shield but still open to air. This is the second place air is added to mixture. next is the iron casting this arrangement is screwed into and a flat rectangle bi metal plate with a tiny square peg that goes into a tiny hole in casting this plate is heat sensitive and works as the choke for the carburetor as it expands from heat. This hole is the third place air is added to the mixture. Manual says fuel supply can be no more than 12 inches above heater and they picked the float bowl of carburetor as previously been mentioned because there is no head pressure to screw up the fuel mixture. what looks and sounds like a simple fuel line is anything but.

01-21-2015, 12:54 PM	#55
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,753	Re: Southwind & Zenith So do we have heat yet Bob

01-25-2015, 06:58 PM	#56
hale1776 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Connecticut Posts: 130	Re: Southwind & Zenith No....Got good vacuum, sucked fuel out of jar down to hole had to refill, switching heater on draws 10 amps but no heat no ignition. Wondering if positive ground could be a factor. Igniter feels cold when switched on.

01-25-2015, 07:32 PM	#57
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,390	Re: Southwind & Zenith Try posting a short synopsis of your "adventure" over on the EV8 board. There are several over there using SouthWinds. They may have a solution. Paul in CT Storm coming.

01-26-2015, 01:18 PM	#58
hale1776 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Connecticut Posts: 130	Re: Southwind & Zenith Just got an email from Larry in Canada I had asked if his car was Negative ground which it is. It is possible that in needs to be wired Negative ground. This would in-tail isolating it from firewall (its ground) and running a positive and negative to heater. Both gas line and vacuum line have rubber so neither is a ground. If anyone has any tips on running a 6 volt Negative ground item on a positive ground vehicle chime in any time. A huge snowstorm approaching Connecticut so be a while to get to it. Considering how easy it is to loose electrical ground on a Model A I don't see it as insurmountable.

01-26-2015, 01:20 PM	#59
hale1776 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Connecticut Posts: 130	Re: Southwind & Zenith PS Nothing in service manual about ground but it could have been written when all cars were mostly negative ground by then.

01-26-2015, 02:58 PM	#60
MikeK Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Windy City Posts: 2,919	Re: Southwind & Zenith Not a polarity problem. The fan motor has a wound field and doesn't care, the ignitor is resistive and doesn't care. The No start problem is likely the ignitor. The ignitors have a service life, at which point they become fouled from fuel ash and carbon. This increases their amp draw. Occasionally they completely short to ground. Remove the ignitor assembly and clean it if you can. I know of some that have been made functional again by washing with a spray can of carb cleaner followed by light soda blasting. The element is way too fragile for glass beads or, gasp, anything else. If you need a new one, they are a rare find. It is possible to rebuild one, but I don't have spec's on the internal heater element.