Paint info, help needed

[Terry, NJ]

I agree with Pete's ponies too. I add all up and I come up with about $7-800, maybe a little more, they include
2 cowl patch panels $25
Scrap steel for Patch Panels $5
2 spools of Welding wire $20
Sandpaper etc $30-50
3 Qts body filler $30
2 Gals primer $100 each
1 Gallon of black paint$100
1 Gallon Chicle Drab $100 estimated
1 Gallon Copra Drab $100 Est.
Besides Clear coat, Have I missed anything?
Terry

[wrndln]

Terry,
Have you priced good filler and paint lately? I think the prices you listed above are much lower than when I purchased filler, primer and top coat paint not too long ago. When I purchased PPG Concept or Dupont ChromaPremier single stage paint a year or so ago, a gallon was at least $250 and that is not even red or other special expensive color. That was just the paint, not the catalyst or reducer. Evercoat Rage Gold is about $50/.8 gal (about 3 quarts). The paint could be higher now and I receive the body shop discount from the paint dealer. I can see filler, primer, paint and other necessary items running well over $1000 and maybe up to $1500 or $2000 if you use good quality products. Remember, model A's normally need 4 or 5 colors when you figure the main color, trim color, black items like fenders, splash aprons, etc, interior trim, reveals and pinstripe. Auto paint ain't cheap!
Rusty

[stainless steve]

your missing all your sealer and mixing chemicals and prep wipeing and gun cleaning solvents.masking paper and tapes and your estimated colors are a little lite on price.dont forget tackrags and a resperater as well probley another400.00 dollars

[stainless steve]

Originally Posted by lajones

I am soon going to repaint, but I do not intend to take the body off. The frame and such was done by a previous owner. Since I will probably just be sanding, what primer or other product should I start with?

look to start you need to determine what is on you car for a finnish. for example old laquer finnish or maybe old acrlyc enamel ect.or rustoleum who knows .then you need to determine its condition( cracked all over thickness of previous work bare in spots ect..then you can get a plan ..old finnish needs to be cleaned with a prep wipe BEFORE you even touch it with sand paper If you arent going to remove the body your probley not going to remove old finnish either..you can block the old finnish down if its determined its a good tight finnish and if you dont need any other work to a panel it can be epoxied scuffed and painted other areas may need work so do your metal repairs epoxy and then you can put your bondo or sand and fill primers on top then when done epoxy over it and be ready to color many of the newer products are catalized now wich means there is a hardener componet which is superior over laquer based products for longevity of job and quality ..........be patent and take your time ...good luck
Steve

[stainless steve]

Another componet in this whole blog is what people might spend ..You can do it on the cheap buy all your products on e-bay ..use implement enamel and pick-up half empty cans of crap for next to nothing IF THATS what you want to do...Its you car and your time...But what we are trying to tell you is you need to use quality products from the start, there is a lot of time spent prepping a car for paint and painting is the very last step...and what it covers can fail within a couple years if not done proper also every state has regulations on what a person can do in his own garage pertaining painting and regardless of that if you do it your self WERE SUITABLE RESPERATERS AND OTTERWEAR TO PROTECT YOURSELVES

[Mike V. Florida]

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Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

I agree with Pete's ponies too. I add all up and I come up with about $7-800, maybe a little more, they include
2 cowl patch panels $25
Scrap steel for Patch Panels $5
2 spools of Welding wire $20
Sandpaper etc $30-50
3 Qts body filler $30
2 Gals primer $100 each
1 Gallon of black paint$100
1 Gallon Chicle Drab $100 estimated
1 Gallon Copra Drab $100 Est.
Besides Clear coat, Have I missed anything?
Terry

I have read here that TCP global has single stage Urathane (their equiv to PPG Concept) in colors that match the published color charts.

Their Paint in the colors above come to about 175.00 Gal for black and 225.00 gal for each color that includes reducer, hardner, color.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by PetesPonies

I restore and paint for a living. I do not see how you can have $2000 in paint materials alone in painting a Model A.

I can easily see how paint and materials could cost $2000. Even with my "shop discount" I spent $500 on a gallon of primer, a gallon of bondo, and i think a quart of single stage with reducer and hardner for the inside of my speedster. If some one didn't have the discount that I got, I would image it would have cost somewhere around $700. Now lets add up paint for the entire outside of the body, the frame, and wheels... It isn't gonna be cheap. Plus lets say a gallon of bondo, whether the whole gallon is used or not is irrelevant, they're gonna have to buy one to fill some spots, then a respirator mask, and all the different sand paper grits you will need in the process. I can see how it would add up to $2000 pretty quickly. Now we also shoot top of the line materials. The single stage we use for chassis peices, wheels, and inside the body is really the same as base/clear mixed together. And yeah it shines. Then we shoot top shelf primer, base, and clear on the outside of the body. So $2000 and the end of the paint Job, doesn't sound un reasonable. But then again, if you don't use top of the line materials, it will be a lot cheaper. But why cut corners when you're putting all the work into the restoration or paint job. You want the best top coat you can buy. (If you can afford it)

[Terry, NJ]

Mike, There seems to be a "race to the top" mentality among the manufacturers of automobile paints. WHOTINHELL is in that gallon that makes it worth $175. @ gallon? This is relatively cheap too. I've encountered prices as high as $1200. @ Gallon (Not mod A paint) So which ingredient that comes from a $95 @ barrel of crude oil, in minute quantities, makes the paint so costly? Nothing! Absolutely Nothing! Value is presented by the salesman and either embraced or rejected by the buyer. It behooves the interests of the salesmen to inflate the value of his product. They have been incredibly successful at convincing us of the quality and higher price of their product. Yet, this doesn't stand up under scrutiny. What is in that can of paint that makes it worth this kind of money?
Terry

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

I have read here that TCP global has single stage Urathane (their equiv to PPG Concept) in colors that match the published color charts.

Their Paint in the colors above come to about 175.00 Gal for black and 225.00 gal for each color that includes reducer, hardner, color.

[Terry, NJ]

I did forget the hardeners, solvents and the phosphoric acid! For the primer, I bought 1 gal. Kirkers Perfect Prime and the other stuff with it for $99. Shipping included.
Terry

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

I agree with Pete's ponies too. I add all up and I come up with about $7-800, maybe a little more, they include
2 cowl patch panels $25
Scrap steel for Patch Panels $5
2 spools of Welding wire $20
Sandpaper etc $30-50
3 Qts body filler $30
2 Gals primer $100 each
1 Gallon of black paint$100
1 Gallon Chicle Drab $100 estimated
1 Gallon Copra Drab $100 Est.
Besides Clear coat, Have I missed anything?
Terry

[Curt Campbell]

I have been painting cars since 1962....I am 64. I had a another totally different career....this stuff is my hobby. I have done newer car rebuilds (140 Honday Civics) and many rods and vettes, some of which were awarded Best Paint in some car shows. I have been from the old DuPont Alkyd based enamel (Dulux), R + M, Centari, PPG, Acme, Sherwin Williams, and all the laquers, and some I cannot recall to todays outstanding products. In short, todays paint is incredible. I have paint jobs out in the weather for the last 20 years. Some paints have held up, some havent. Based on my experience and the nice quality I want, my choices for my A I am restoring are as follows:

Sand/Bead Blasted/Clean Metal Surfaces:

1. Spray wax and grease remover on surface with a plastic spray bottle....wipe off. $20 a gallon, goes a long ways.
2. Thanks to a recent tip from Brent in TN, spray the surface with JASCO Prep and Paint. Its a metal cleaner conditioner and is sold at Lowes. Leaves great surface coating for maximum adhesion of primers, paint, fillers, whatever. $7 a quart, reduce it 100% with water. Wash off in 30 minutes with water...blow dry.
3. If the metal is going to be worked with filler or etc. immediately, do it on the bare metal. If it will be sitting a while, its best to prime to stop any surface rusting. Apply 2K Epoxy Primer to bare metal. I like DuPont, reasonable at less than $100 per gallon including activator. I also like the House of Colors 2K High Build primer.
4. Do whatever body work that needs to be done. I use only Rage Body Filler. It is $50 a gallon but worth every penny. Do not use cheepo filler. Not worth it. If I need any glaze filler I use the new Evercoat Metal Finishing Filler. It works really well and sands nicely. No pinholes. New one that just came out this month.
5. After body work is done, I use one of the above 2k High Fill Primers. Using sanding boards as long as possible (Durablock up to 30" wide) block, prime, block, prime as many times as needed to get TOTALLY flat surface. Use a GUIDE COAT of some type to guide your blocking. I either use the 3M Black Carbon Powder Guide Coat or alternate primer colors from gray to black each time to expose high and low areas. There is no substitute for hard work to get it RIGHT.
6. I let everything dry and harden for several days or longer before I continue with the painting phase. I want all the solvents evaporated out. Getting in a hurry will cause you nothing but problems later on in your finish.
7. I prepare the surface by sanding with at least 400 paper...wet blocking. Can be sanded up to 800 grit.
8. Sealer...I use Dupont Nason 2K Sealer or reduce down the 2K Primers and apply one or two coats of sealer. Sealer costs about $35 a quart including activator. Primers work just as well for me....great at no sand scratch lifting later on. I also lightly sand the sealer with gray scotch brite pad to remove any crap and nibs that might have gotten into sealer.
9. Base Color....I use either DuPont Chromabase or DuPont Nason Color Base to the car. A quart of Chromabase for A solid colors is about $75. The Chromabase is about $140 a qt. Activators are reasonable.
10. Clear. I have used all kinds of clear coats...from HIGH dollar to garbage. My favorites are either Dupont Nason 2k Clear (around $100 for gallon including activator) or Matrix MS42 High Solids Clear (about $200 a gallon for clear and activator). I am not convinced there is much difference between the two. The Matrix is probably more suited to the show type finish.

This is just how I do it. I am not selling anything. I am not criticizing anyone elses choices and processes. I am sure other products work equally well...this is what I have access to locally....plus many years of trial and error. I do believe that some paint companies have TOTALLY inflated the cost of the paints to give you the impression that a clear that is 5 times the price is worth it. I have used the HIGH ones...I am not convinced at all. I know some of our local body shops who do very good work have discovered the same things. A couple of them have moved to total water borne products now and are extremely pleased with those. They are not very practical for the guy like me with a body shop in his back yard to mess around in.

Good luck to whatever you do with your car. Only three other comments...

1. Do not use any lacquer based products in todays world of great new products.
2. With all your hard work getting your car ready to paint, dont throw that away by going to Tractor Supply and using implement paint.
3. USE A FRESH AIR SUPPLIED RESPIRATOR FOR 2K PAINTS WITH DYSYOCYONATES (sp) IN THEM. CARTRIDGE MASKS DO NOT PROTECT YOUR HEALTH!! I CRINGE WHEN I SEE THE VIDEOS OF GUYS USING THE CARTRIDGE MASKS FOR THE 2K PAINTS.

Hope this is helpful to someone. Thanks.

[lance leblanc]

what are 2K paints?

[Curt Campbell]

Paints containing isocyanates....the are 2 part...requires activator. Will say 2K on label. They chemically harden. I mispelled that word horribly above.

[CA Victoria]

Been gone for a while, wow what a great response. Thank you. the last car I painted was years ago with DuPont Centari, allot of changes in the paint world since then. I need to comb through the details and do a little more research.

[Terry, NJ]

Curt, Thanks for posting this. My last painting job was in 1974. I painted a 65 ford truck with Centari (3 qts @ $15 @ Qt.). You might say that things have changed a little since then! 98% of the old paint is coming off the body. Why not 100%? The 2% is some of the original elkpoint/kewaunee green and I'm leaving it on for the next guy to discover.
I've bought both Bondo and Micro lite body fillers. The cured color is bluish green. I've been told this is better than the pink. I've heard both, apply to only clean, bare metal and it can be applied over primer. Confusing!
I have a spray can of SEM etching primer and I usually use the phosphoritic acid wash. Apply, rinse, dry, then wipe. Prime with the Hi Build primer. I was thinking of allowing a local body shop to actually do the last bit of body work and the painting. As I never could spray properly.
Terry

[Curt Campbell]

Sounds like a plan Terry. I never did much care for the Centari enamel. I remember when it first came out in the early 70's....it was a pain in the butt. DuPont paint reps used to have workshops in the evening once in a while to introduce new products or just "how to" presentations. I recall one at the Mopar Dealer in Keokuk IA when they introduced Centari. The rep was a rather cocky know-it-all type...he sprayed a rear quarter on a big ass Dodge Coronet....green. The paint went totally to hell on him...it was a riot. He couldnt fix it!!

They always had pizza and beer...but wouldn't open the beer coolers until the end of the show...good idea with old body men in attendance...

[JRHASZARD]

Curt Campbell, thank you and others for the great information on painting. I believe one should do as much restoration as possible. This is after all a hobby for me. As a retired guy, I don't have an unlimited budget, so I want to learn to do as much as possible. I don't know much about metal work and ask for help on that, but I can scrape rust with the best. I have a Crayco HVLP spray outfit with a turbine type compressor and a large diameter air hose. I don't know what tip to use for epoxy primer,build up primer coats, color (or clear) two part coats. Also, what does one look for when adjusting the pressure and spray pattern ? Next question. I do have the face mask with an air supply, is that necessary when using the filler that has a hardner ? I understand the hardner is the dangerous carcenogen in the material. Thanks, John

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by Curt Campbell

Sounds like a plan Terry. I never did much care for the Centari enamel. I remember when it first came out in the early 70's....it was a pain in the butt. DuPont paint reps used to have workshops in the evening once in a while to introduce new products or just "how to" presentations. I recall one at the Mopar Dealer in Keokuk IA when they introduced Centari. The rep was a rather cocky know-it-all type...he sprayed a rear quarter on a big ass Dodge Coronet....green. The paint went totally to hell on him...it was a riot. He couldnt fix it!!

They always had pizza and beer...but wouldn't open the beer coolers until the end of the show...good idea with old body men in attendance...

I started painting in 1965 I never liked centari. I've used all kinds of paint over the years . I've had more problems in general with dupont paint than any other. I've been to a few of those work shops also.

[Ken Ehrenhofer]

Originally Posted by luckyal

I agree with Petes Ponies. Can you please explain how you can get near to $2000 dollars for just materials ?
Al

I have restored many Model A Fords and I have found that most trips to my Body Shop supply store costs me ABOUT $400 TO $500 on average.
After sand blasting we apply a coat of DP-90 Epoxy primer as a first coat.
I believe this is almost $200 for a gallon with hardener. We sandblast everything including all wheels and chassis parts, body parts and small and large parts. This accounts for hundreds if not thousands of parts.
We then spray a coat of urethane primer onto all of these same parts and this costs close to $250-$300 per gallon with solvent. Then bondo is applied and then sanded off to fill all of the deep rust pits until most of the bondo and primer is now on the floor and we are ready to recoat once again. I use an exceptional amount of primer on the wheels particularly to fill all the pits and come to a smooth surface ready for topcoat.
I bought a 5 gallon can of wash thinner to clean my spary guns today and it cost $75.00 just used to clean my guns. I know that 5 gallons will last 6 months but it is still on my list of expenses.
After all of this the chassis black (cheaper paint ) is also in the range of over $100 per gallon with hardener and thinner. I also find in some cases parts need to be painted twice due to pits popping up and sand marks or mistakes. of course now you have to buy PPG Concept for the top coats and it is very expenxive easily costong $400 per gallon and if it is Red or Ford Maroon the cost may be close to $600 per gallon (red is much more expensive) with hardener and thinner. Add some money for flattener if you are trying to build a show car. (not cheap) and don't for get most Model A's are two colors plus black fenders etc.
Now add all the incidentals such as Wax and Grease remover. Sand paper, masking tape, paper, fine line masking tape for two color cars...... Just add up the numbers and you will see it will be $1000 to $1500 easily and not hard to get close to $2000 depending on the color.
This has been my experience and in my opinion easy to spend a lot of money to paint a Model A.
IMHO-Ken

[Mike V. Florida]

I also believe some of us do not include items also used for other things in their cost calculations. Sandpaper, masking tape as examples can be used for a whole lot of other things besides body painting and some may not include it in the cost of doing a car. It is the same thing as a while back a post about the cost of restoring a car to fine point. A barner stated a real low cost in aquireing parts for car buy looking at swap meets and such
I know he did not include the travel expense and accomidations in the cost of the parts. Should he have? Should one include the cost of sandpaper, garments, and such?

$2000.00, I don't know for sure, depends on what you include I guess.

[Terry, NJ]

Here again, I don't know squat about the art or arts of body work. I'm a total amateur!
Just callin' them as I sees them! Inquiries into this subject with local body shops have produced a paint that I never heard of (an Asiatic name IIRC) costing about $200 @ gal.
My own investigation produced the following results; Magnet Paints. An old, (Since 1915) small time paint Manu. from Brooklyn, NY They make a lot of paint for industrial uses, trucks, Tractors, dumpsters, etc. Their paints are known to be tough, resilent to sunlight and CHEAP! Like $50-60 @Gal. However, No mixing of colors (Copra and Drab) I would not try to match body colors, Only the black fenders etc. Look up Magnet paint.
Kirker Paints. Another old manuf. (Used to supply paint to Chrysler I believe) They seem to be aimed at DIY ers They make kits which are listed between $244 and 357, depending on the type of paint. They also sell a lot of other paints/colors, but I haven't checked about mixing colors. Their per Gal price ranges from about $80 -150. Reds being the most expensive. This is the Auto Body Toolmart 2013 catalog Pg92. Along with Kirker, they have Sherwin-Williams, with factory mixing at similar prices.
Terry