05-13-2010, 11:25 PM | #61 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,099
|
Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
Quote:
Again, I'm not suggesting anyone else run one. I was however trying to explain that it's not just basic use over 80 years that makes one prone to failure, but other factors that are generally identifiable but nearly always overlooked. True, one example only proves the potential of an original fan in equal condition. The trick or art is identifying that condition. BTW, I spin mine MUCH faster than most. I do monitor it for surprises but don't really expect any.
__________________
http://www.abarnyard.com/ |
|
05-14-2010, 05:43 AM | #62 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Shrewsbury,Pa
Posts: 513
|
Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
OK. Time for my 2 cents - maybe 1 cent. What would the group think of a life limit on fan blades. Maybe 5000 miles. Helicopter rotors are limited by max no. of hours because of the alternating flex problem. I would think you could get 5000 miles on a NEWLY manufactured fan.
Also - if the new sheet metal fans are formed at the base with a shearing burr on the outside radius of the curve there is a real possibility of a crack developing along that edge. I would check a new blade for this burr and file and polish the edge real smooth if I found one. |
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|
05-14-2010, 08:57 AM | #63 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Windy City
Posts: 2,919
|
Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
Quote:
You want Model A guys to throw something away that ain't broke yet? They won't replace 30 year old tires 'till they blow, you want them to throw away a $200-$300 fan! By the way, I agree with you! |
|
05-15-2010, 06:19 AM | #64 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 11,509
|
Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
Quote:
classic!!! |
|
05-15-2010, 07:13 AM | #65 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Rock Hill, S.C.
Posts: 985
|
Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
Just adding a thought or twwo on this subject. I hang around some of the fine point crowd for the knowledge and most importantly I have an appreciation for the preservation of history. My limited knowledge leaves me with the impression that Henry Ford was a leader in the industrial evalution (sp?) that lead to the greatness of this country, and I like the fact that the Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards does the most nice job of revealing the details of that history. I further believe that these standards should not be 'stepped downwards' to make it easier for compliance. I used to argue this point somewhat with Marco, but his steadfast adhesion to this approach has made me a believer in 'right is right'. I used to hang around some of the race car folks, and on any given Sunday if you were able to make the race you could take pride in your accomplishments. If you missed the race you went home and worked harder, you did not petition NASCAR to 'dumb down the rules' so you could be more competetive. So much for my soapbox perspective regarding rules changes. I had a friend that has since passed away that was able to restore the original fans in a manner that seemed to be quite well done. He would never share how he did it, but was adament about removing the rust from inside the fan. I was able to use a ball micrometer and check the fan in any area and it would be a very consistant measurement. I am familiar with magnafluxing, but he made me understand that it only checks cracks that are on the outside of the fan, not those on the inside. If I understood him correctly he was hinting that whatever made the rust form on the inside was not visable from the outside and that centrifigal force would move the rust on the inside, outward and impact the balance, and depending on the final resting place of the rust accumulation, it would determine how the blade was twisted and the resulting crack to appear. He was some how able to remove that rust on the inside(???????), balance the fan, and have it provide a long lasting life. He had a Tudor that have 42,000 + touring miles and his close friend has a Phaeton that has more than 46,000 miles and it is still used on touring. Again, just an old mans thoughts!
__________________
Uncle Bud says "too soon old, too late smart!" |
05-15-2010, 07:34 AM | #66 |
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Brookshire, Texas
Posts: 30
|
Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
|
05-15-2010, 12:46 PM | #67 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Windy City
Posts: 2,919
|
Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
Quote:
What you did is neither "ok to do or pure overkill!" You now have a DANGEROUS fan. Welding the four overlap joints of the two blades- two in front, two in the back, has made the fan far more prone to sudden blade loss than the riveted construction. You have now concentrated the flexing directly across your weld beads. The grain structure in the steel sheet metal the blades are made from is refined, compressed, and stretched directionally during the rolling process, essentially a type of forging. Your weld bead destroyed that. It annealed the metal and left a soft line with much less spring than the rest of the blade. The fact that you now have 23 years accumulated stress from flexion on that fan makes it a real time bomb. Last edited by MikeK; 05-15-2010 at 12:54 PM. Reason: Spelling, Duh! |
|
08-11-2010, 04:26 AM | #68 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Pottersville, NJ
Posts: 238
|
Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
Question: Which fan EACTLY does this discussion pertain to? I have an original 2 blade aluminum one piece fan on my 28 A. It seems that this discussion regards a stamped fan with rivets.. ??
Thanks gents... |
08-11-2010, 05:04 AM | #69 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Blissful
Posts: 298
|
Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
The original fans were not aluminum, they were steel. They are prone to cracking near the hub, rusting internally and failing with often disastrous results.
|
08-11-2010, 07:25 AM | #70 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Kaukauna, Wisconsin
Posts: 394
|
Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
I would be interested for $100.00 or close to that. Anything more I would take my chances with an aluminum 2-blade. Don/Wi
|
08-12-2010, 12:39 AM | #71 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South California
Posts: 6,188
|
Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
Quote:
Once again ...thanks for sharing your knowledgable perspective to this thread! 'CYCLIC WORK HARDENING' ..just how hard is that to understand to help put a stop to the general use of this poorly designed fan! I'm with you on buying the titanium bladed fan, but not a redue of a failed design! |
|
08-12-2010, 07:18 AM | #72 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Lewisburg,PA
Posts: 938
|
Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
Since some Model A's have been running since they were made and many, many were in operation during WWII when they were 15 years old, I would be very interested as to whether there were historically fan failures reported when the A was new, or whether this is a problem with an 80 year old part. And while we're at it, do Chevrolet,Dodge and other fans from that era have similar problems today?
I don't have a fine points car, but I'd be a big "fan" of the "one for show and one for go" crowd. I really like my current radiator and hood top. |
08-12-2010, 10:39 AM | #73 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Daytona Beach, Fl & Spencer, W. Va,
Posts: 4,442
|
Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
If he is taking a poll to see how many people would be interested in buying one, he could put me down for one, if it is in the $100.00 range. If he had to price it in the $300.00 range, only the most fanatic of the fanatics would be buying it, in my opinion. At $100.00, I think that most drivers would invest in a NEW fan blade.
I had one break once, but luckily, no damage. It went downward. Then, since I was only about two miles from home, I tried to limp home, slowly, with one blade. I had a long hill to climb, and since I was driving slowly, I had to down shift into higher RPMs. The whole car shook and the water pump disentigrated. Next time, I will break off the other blade or remove the belt. Live and learn ! MIKE |
08-12-2010, 11:47 AM | #74 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Billerica, Ma
Posts: 461
|
Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
Mines origonal to the car i have never actualy taken a good look at my fan. From what im hearing is that the fan is comprised of two blades welded to the hub?
If it were once peace stamped steal of medum dencity rivited to the a central hub made to look origonal (i see no reason that it would ever fail) all welds are prone to failure from fatigue ( I take it the weld is were these blades are failing?) I would never put a cast fan blade in my car the process of casting creates an extreamly brittle meatal that is porus, unbalenced with tones of microscopic cracks and air holes. thats why air plane props are mechiend not cast. |
08-12-2010, 12:02 PM | #75 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,375
|
Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
A repop stamped steel two-blade fan was briefly available from some vendors back in the mid 80's. I know because I have one that I bought back then and paid the princely sum of $47 for it because it was such a good replica of the original. Maybe somebody knows about these?
I never got around to installing it, lost it during a move, and wasn't able to buy a replacement. The vendor told me that the person making the fans had ceased production and was otherwise unreachable. I found the fan in some moving boxes about 20 years later and still have it but have yet to install it because I'm happy with my aluminum fan and not into fine-point judging. So, please note that the repop two-blade fan has been done already but I don't know why it had such a short production run. From what I now know about the original, the big question is whether or not anybody has found a way to mitigate the potential faults of Henry's original. |
08-12-2010, 12:12 PM | #76 |
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 13
|
Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
I would buy an authentic fan reproduction in a heartbeat.
|
08-12-2010, 01:28 PM | #77 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Yorktown, VA
Posts: 139
|
Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
For waht it's worth, probably not much, the original two blade fan was prone to failure within just a few short years after production.
Our local Ford dealer carried two blade and four blade replacement fans back in the fifties. They probably had them even before then. I was just too young to realize it. Coming from a family of mechanics, grandfather and father, I'm very familiar with the two bladed fans that failed during the late fifties and sixties. These were fans that had not set out in the weather rusting on some abandoned engine. These were fans on rather low mileage cars that had been maintained The two blade fan was a faulty design. It's a wonder that they have survived all these years and are still being used. My grandfather did not trust the two bladed fan, no matter how good it looked and free from any cracks. Whenever he could convince a customer the fan was changed to a four bladed, riveted fan. We had a case of a recently overhauled Model A engine on a combine. It was parked next to the shop and was being "run in" after the rebuild. The engine was running at a fast idle. All of a sudden there was a loud noise as one of the blades broke free and drove itself into the side of the building. When we toured with our Model A's back in the late fifties just about everyone that had a two bladed fan carried and extra. It was not uncommon to have one or two fan blade failures each year. Worst one was on the Pennsy Turnpike on the way to Bedford, PA, from NW Ohio. A very nice, low mileage 29 station wagon tossed a blade going through one of the tunnels. It destroyed the radiator and one blade ended up sticking out the passenger side of the hood. So, Model A fan blade failure is not something new. These failures go back to a period prior to WWII. The longer these baldes were run the more failures happened. Two blade originals are just great on a fine point car, but you are looking for trouble running one of these "time bombs" on a car used for daily driving and touring. Good luck! |
08-21-2010, 02:38 PM | #78 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Spruce Pine, NC
Posts: 1,458
|
Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
I would definitely spring for this new steel fan for our unrestored Coupe.
our Town Sedan is a 20-yr old but still very nice driver-quality restoration. the aluminum fan is good enough for it. Last edited by Chris in WNC; 08-21-2010 at 02:39 PM. Reason: punctuation correction |
08-21-2010, 03:48 PM | #79 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South central Tenn
Posts: 375
|
Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
I am new to stock Model A's and this information is also new to me. I never would have thought that a fan blade that survived 80 years on a car was designed defective. Now that I have read all of the posts and see that this has been an ongoing problem for most of the Model A's lifespan I guess I need to preempt the problem and change the blade. I do not have a show car so 100 bucks is out of my price range on a new fan blade so I guess I will opt for just a standard replacement.So the aluminum replacements are ok for just a driver then?
|
08-21-2010, 07:17 PM | #80 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bucks Co, Pa
Posts: 3,740
|
Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
As a former welder, I agree with Mike K. You have a bomb! I would get that thing off the engine tonight and have it magnafluxed tomorrow. Mike explained it better than I can, but there is such a thing as the HAZ. The Heat Affected Zone and it's always right next to the weld. This is where most welds fail. It weakenes the parent metal (In this case, the fanblade)
This is where failure would occur. On second thought, throw that fan away! One day a tiny crack will begin in the HAZ. Later, you'll rev the engine and centrifugal force will take over and Bang. it will be all over but the crying! Terry Quote:
|
|
|
|
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|