09-24-2020, 12:40 PM | #1 |
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Winfield su1a
Just pulled out an old Winfield SU1A thatÂ’s been on the shelf for the last 45 years and though It might be worth putting in a 276 IÂ’m getting ready to build for my 38 sedan. Sent it to Isky to get profiled. Came back with a card with info. Want to know what to expect if I use it. Will be running 59AB heads, stock intake and carb, Harmon and Collins dist, Fenton headers, mild porting and port matching. Duration @ .020 270 intake. 258 exhaust
Cam lift .370 intake. .350 exhaust Duration @ .050. 240 intake. 230 exhaust Valve lash. .016/.018 Will idle be excessively lumpy? How about low and mid speed drivability? Any help will be much appreciated |
09-24-2020, 01:23 PM | #2 | |
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Re: Winfield su1a
Quote:
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09-24-2020, 01:30 PM | #3 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
It will be lumpy, for sure, as it has a lot of overlap. I think it will want at least another carburetor, to get the best of it and better valve springs, of course.
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Frank '35 Ford Model 51 '48 Ford F3 '54 Ford Tudor Mainline |
09-24-2020, 02:05 PM | #4 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
This might help and it lists another Isky carded SU1A but, the timing for the lobes is reversed on it.
It will give you a idea of where the cam lays, compared to other race cams.
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Frank '35 Ford Model 51 '48 Ford F3 '54 Ford Tudor Mainline |
09-24-2020, 03:36 PM | #5 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
BY the numbers, it doesn't sound like a very good street cam. Might work at Bville
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09-24-2020, 03:40 PM | #6 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
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09-24-2020, 03:50 PM | #7 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
I wasn’t sure if it would work for me. I may end up with 52 mercury grind. Don’t want to have too much cam for the rest of the build. I am going to use Zephyr springs depending on cam choice. I also have a Winfield R1, need to know more about it.
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09-24-2020, 06:19 PM | #8 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
Frank already posted part of this, but the rest of the discussion is very interesting.
Mike http://www.tildentechnologies.com/Ca...rformance.html |
09-24-2020, 07:21 PM | #9 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
Been running an SU-1A in my 39 with a 276 cu in engine. I like it, still plenty of low end torque. Been running it for close to 25 years now. With OD I get over 20 mpg running a 390 cfm 4 barrel. Sounds great. Very similar to an L-100.
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09-24-2020, 08:53 PM | #10 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
Winfield cams being among the first ones around are probably the most pirated ones in existence. Over the years I have had at least 15 different cams stamped SU1A come through the shop. Only 3 were genuine Winfield ground by Ed himself.
I ran one of those at Bonneville in 1953 and turned 129. The same engine with a 404A the next year turned 137. Of all of the pirated ones some were of the same timing and lift and several were totally different. Who knows what they were. One thing all of them including the real ones had in common, they were duds as far as a high performance cam. Not even a good street cam unless you like a super lumpy idle. All of the originals I checked were 280 or more duration. Way too much for a NORMAL street engine. Here are some of the ones I checked over the years. SU1A (One of the many) In 28-72 Ex 69-26 In .355 lift Ex .330 lift In .012 Ex .014 Velocity .004 Lobe seperation 112 Winfield SU1A (1953) (Another one of many) 360 lift 280 duration on the intake 28-72 360 lift 286 duration on the ex. 74-32 111 degree lobe separation SU1A (1953) Yet another. In 28-72 Ex 71-29 Lift .355 Lobe sep. 111 Velocity .005 |
09-24-2020, 09:52 PM | #11 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
What are the specs on a real Winfield cam?
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09-24-2020, 10:29 PM | #12 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
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09-25-2020, 08:13 AM | #13 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
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09-25-2020, 08:28 AM | #14 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
I just found the cam card on the Winfield R1. @.020, 256/246. @.050, 226/218. Lift .332/.322. Maybe this would be a little more streetable?
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09-25-2020, 08:31 AM | #15 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
That is still a lot of duration.
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09-25-2020, 09:08 AM | #16 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
when looking at the timing of a cam for street use, check the closing of the intake valve. This determines the dynamic compression of the engine,because, compression doesn't start untill mit closes. O the L-100 a cylinder with a static CR of 8:1 will have a dynamic CR of 6:1. This is one reason the L-100 didn't work very well in a stock engine. The loss of compression reduces the amount of torque the engine can produce. I don't have the information handy for calculating this, but I'm sure somebody does.
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09-25-2020, 09:40 AM | #17 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
Intake 18/58 @ 020. Ex. 53/13 @ .020. Intake 3/43 @ .050. Ex39/1
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09-25-2020, 01:03 PM | #18 | |
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Re: Winfield su1a
Quote:
18/58 @ .020 = 256* 110 LC 53/13 @ .020 = 246* 110 LC 3/43 @ .050 = 226* 110 LC 39/1 @ .050 = 220* 109 LC 39/-1 @ .050 = 218* 110 LC 276 CI (3.312 x 4) 8/1 Static CR R1 dynamic CR = 6.72 SU1A dynamic CR = 6.04 (28/72 timing) Added: Those numbers are for sea level reduce by .2 per 1000 ft elevation.
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Frank '35 Ford Model 51 '48 Ford F3 '54 Ford Tudor Mainline Last edited by frnkeore; 09-25-2020 at 01:24 PM. |
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09-25-2020, 02:36 PM | #19 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
You’re right about the -1 on exhaust closing. After was scratched out on the card and before was written in. What’s the drivability for the street look like? Should I be looking for something else?
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09-25-2020, 03:39 PM | #20 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
I think the R1 would be more streetable. I would call it more like a 3/4 race cam. Compare it to the Harmon-Collins 3/4 race cam.
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Frank '35 Ford Model 51 '48 Ford F3 '54 Ford Tudor Mainline |
09-25-2020, 05:13 PM | #21 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
I ran a Winfield R1 in a 59A 60 years ago.
The idle was smooth as the stock cam. A real Winfield, not a copy. A stock 8CM or EAB cam would probably perform better. |
09-25-2020, 05:16 PM | #22 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
I think I may use the R1. Unless I hear something else to persuade me otherwise. Thanks for all the help!!!
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09-25-2020, 05:17 PM | #23 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
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09-25-2020, 05:19 PM | #24 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
I'm so sad to hear this. Winfield is held in such high regard. I wish the cam would have preformed better.
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09-25-2020, 05:33 PM | #25 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
While digging through the internet I found a book with a bunch of old original cam specs! The book is “ How to build Ford flathead power” By George McNicholl. Has several different grinders. It seems the R1 is Windfields full race grind, and it doesn’t match what is on the cam card that Isky gave me back when I sent my cams to them. Mine might be a bad copy. Can you imagine that!
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09-25-2020, 05:33 PM | #26 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
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The Isky 404, one of the most successful flathead circle track cams ever made was an almost direct copy of the Winfield #4 Offy grind. |
09-26-2020, 10:06 AM | #27 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
Winfield's R1 cam was always advertised as a "3/4 Race" cam.
Much has been lost in translation over The last 50 years. |
09-26-2020, 11:56 AM | #28 | |
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Re: Winfield su1a
Quote:
Not to stray too far off topic, but does the #4 grind need radius lifters like the 404? |
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09-26-2020, 01:44 PM | #29 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
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09-26-2020, 05:46 PM | #30 |
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Re: Winfield su1a
Pete's correct! I put together an Offy 220 in the mid 80's with #4 Winfield camshafts. They use radiused cam followers which slide over the valve and spring assembly that ride in keyed bore. The valve lash is adjusted by filing the valve stem with a "Filing block" or if the clearance is too tight the valve seat is ground. All of this takes a considerable amount of time since there are four valves per cylinder. Also, grinding the valve seat requires a "small sized" Kwikway or Sioux grinder since the cylinder head and block are "one casting" [non removable cylinder head] which is done though the bottom side of the block. I still have the Offy filing block.
Last edited by Offy 220; 09-26-2020 at 05:48 PM. Reason: Correct spelling |
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