01-29-2021, 06:54 PM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South California
Posts: 6,188
|
Tech Q ?
I'm taking apart a model b diamond engine.
Have run into a 'strange' situation, that I haven't figured an answer for...yet. Thot I'd ask here...early, in case someone has a helpful tip as to their thots. This Texas guy sold a diamond B....as 'possibly' rebuilt. Hey, it looked good with NEW paint ....that was puzzleing, as a guy would have to strip the b down to do such a good even paint job ? Anyway, he did NOT provide any oil pressure testing orifice....that made me suspect of him. Without oil pressure assurance and with oil leak at front main...hm what's up ? Ok, I pulled engine, took down pan and found a full THREE inches of sludge, to the extent...that it was covering oil pump half way up !! WTFudge ?? Pig in a pretty painted poke ?? So, took of pretty winfield 6;1 alum head. NO ridge ring..in any cylinder ?? Pistons...standard..hm ? I did not take a compression test, but ran engine briefly till verified front main oil leak. NO smoking. Too rich fuel with excessive fuel not being burned..black plugs. I'm stuck as to why ANYONE would bother to strip and engine to apply proper paint block/ pan, etc....and not remove pan for cursory inspection ?? Why no oil pressure and/or gauge ...to indicate 'remove pan and inspect' ? Pump couldn't be putting out pressure...as it was ! And, how do you have 3 inches of sludge in engine with standard/no smoke pistons and no ridge rings ? Still have to look further at bearings, etc.. Valves look ok/black on too rich fuel. Kinda stumped on why so much sludge and engine still in condition it is in ? Thots ... anyone ? Last edited by hardtimes; 01-29-2021 at 06:56 PM. Reason: ............ |
01-29-2021, 07:06 PM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 5,946
|
Re: Tech Q ?
Maybe you were the first person to ever drop the pan.
|
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|
01-29-2021, 07:27 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 631
|
Re: Tech Q ?
Just maybe the seller never looked at the engine either but because it looked fresh, bought it to flip.
Your choice now either to flip or salvage what you have. Hey it's the car biz... story of a wealthy collector with a mega dollar restoration on a Ferrari, first time at the track finds he has only first & fifth gear. "We'll be back....' You'll be back...... |
01-29-2021, 10:26 PM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 6,339
|
Re: Tech Q ?
I have done and in car engine paint after doing some crack repairs to the water jacket for a customer. You would be surprised how well enamel paint sticks to old hard grease! This one was cleaner when I got done then that, but have run across more then a few cases when got to cleaning found the grease was just painted over.
__________________
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! |
01-30-2021, 12:46 PM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South California
Posts: 6,188
|
Re: Tech Q ?
Im leaning towards your idea relative to this B.
Ive opened a LOT engines... and found a lot of sludge... at times ! Never with near this much , and never without ridge rings , standard bore and otherwise clean as this B ! What causes sludge ? We all know that answer. That leads me to believe that this B MAY have started life as a truck or donkey engine-i.e., many starts/stops, no time to warm up properly, no hard work, lack of regular PMs = sludge ! If it isn't cracked... I may have a diamond (B) in the ruff/jewel !! |
01-30-2021, 12:54 PM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Temecula, CA
Posts: 4,066
|
Re: Tech Q ?
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
|
01-30-2021, 12:56 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: 34.22 N 118.36 W
Posts: 1,043
|
Re: Tech Q ?
Nor did they ever build pressure as stock.............J
__________________
As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin. |
01-30-2021, 01:05 PM | #8 |
BANNED
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,196
|
Re: Tech Q ?
Sludge is from years of non detergent oil. Instead of being held in suspension and flushed out during a change like detergent oil,non detergent oil allows debris to settle out in the pan.
Cracking with a late B happens,I have one.Since it was repaired correctly and has fresh babbit Ill build it over the two uncracked late B's I have. B engines as Jim says,don't need an oil pressure gauge..stock.Instead of gravity fed main bearings and cam bearings like the A,Ford supplied positive oil flow to the bearings with the B..not pressure...constant flow. |
01-30-2021, 02:06 PM | #9 |
BANNED
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,196
|
Re: Tech Q ?
The 'money' shot in any Ford flathead four cylinder is under the oil pan.
|
01-30-2021, 02:53 PM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: 34.22 N 118.36 W
Posts: 1,043
|
Re: Tech Q ?
No, this is the money shot........
__________________
As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin. |
01-30-2021, 06:59 PM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Denver Area
Posts: 433
|
Re: Tech Q ?
Years ago Quaker State had a problem with a batch of oil where it would turn to jelly if it got too cold. I wonder if your engine had something react with the oil in the pan and make a LOT of sludge all at once while having almost no wear on the engine.
BTW, John Neilson, that is the LOTTA money shot. Is that a Donavan block? |
01-30-2021, 07:14 PM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Western North Carolina
Posts: 3,812
|
Re: Tech Q ?
That is called a Krylon overhaul.
Sludge comes from the crap settling out, as Jack Shaft said, with non detergent oil. An engine that runs cold will have more sludge and it means that the oil was not changed very frequently or not at all. I remember engines full of sludge. Use detergent oil in your Model A but only after making sure that the engine is not full of sludge.
__________________
A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past. |
01-30-2021, 07:17 PM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,966
|
Re: Tech Q ?
It's probably driven an emergency generator and been started every now and then.
|
01-30-2021, 07:34 PM | #14 |
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Illinois
Posts: 26
|
Re: Tech Q ?
Maybe the pan is not from that engine??
|
01-30-2021, 07:51 PM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Western North Carolina
Posts: 3,812
|
Re: Tech Q ?
Notice that John Neilson's engine has the two forward pistons moving in unison and the two aft pistons moving in unison. The firing order for this engine can be 1-3-2-4 or 1-4-2-3. The reason for doing this is so that the shared intake ports at the front alternate with the shared intake ports at the rear. This makes the engine breath better. With the normal crankshaft the front intake port sucks twice then the rear intake port sucks twice.
__________________
A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past. |
01-30-2021, 08:41 PM | #16 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: 34.22 N 118.36 W
Posts: 1,043
|
Re: Tech Q ?
Quote:
Winfield did this a few years ago Called two up two down Sort of a poor mans 4 port motor And yes, much more efficient than normal crank J
__________________
As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin. |
|
01-31-2021, 12:44 AM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South California
Posts: 6,188
|
Re: Tech Q ?
Hey John,
Nah, not THE money shot... nice, but only 4 mains !! |
01-31-2021, 01:48 AM | #18 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South California
Posts: 6,188
|
Re: Tech Q ?
Quote:
I learned all this... good, from your #1 book ! I do not usually mess with ‘stock’ oil pump. I use high pressure pump..ergo the pressure gage useage. However, this time I’m thinking using stock pump. I have a question for you, regarding stock pump Configuration. Can I just flip over the gear cover, to get a new unused surface ? There is slight wear on the plate where it touched the gear faces. Thanks Jim |
|
01-31-2021, 03:16 AM | #19 |
BANNED
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,196
|
Re: Tech Q ?
Big time..guess I'll take my toys and go home ...btw..I didn't know you were a crossdresser..you got matching stockings to go with that girdle??
We used to lap oil pump plates. .light scoring is unavoidable. the only salt my junk will see is if its spilled in the drivethru.. Last edited by Jack Shaft; 01-31-2021 at 12:04 PM. |
01-31-2021, 02:07 PM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Temecula, CA
Posts: 4,066
|
Re: Tech Q ?
Good eye nkaminar! Lotta high-dollar equipment shown above.
Hardtimes, 4 mains? On a banger??? Short story on sludge. In '65 I was working for the City of LA. One night the foreman gave me a job, no oil pressure the ticket said. I started it up, good pressure but by the time I drove it into the shop, the red light was on. Turned out there were heaps of sludge in the pan. (Ford 6 cyl. pickup) I cleaned the pan and pump screen, put it back together, put in 5 qts of oil, started the engine ... no pressure. By now it was break time, and the guys were giving me a bad time, saying you forgot to put in oil you dumb sh-t. I said I put it right in here, sticking my finger into the rocker cover opening, and got my finger soaked with oil! The upper end was so full of sludge the oil hadn't gotten down to the pan! |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|