Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-03-2014, 02:26 PM   #1
AnthonyG
Senior Member
 
AnthonyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pa.
Posts: 1,833
Default Flywheel Pressure plate balance issues.

Took my '35 out for a real ride. First one never went over 10MPH and ended in overheating and that issue is resolved. Increased the speed in each gear. at low
RPM 1200 to 1500 pretty smooth, then the vibration increases to an uncomfortable level. at 35 to 40 mph. Driving with the center floor section out I can feel / hear it coming from the front of the trans / bell.

This was the first assembly for me at putting a resurfaced FW, PP, clutch and rebuilt tranny. Has anyone had balance issues like this after a project like this? There isn't any special indexing when assembling the FW PP bolts is there? Torqued all per manual instruction. Clutch spline lined up and works fine, I know I'm going to have to pull the engine again and figure it out but want a plan before I start. Thinking maybe should've bought a new FW and PP.
__________________
Nomad
AnthonyG is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 04:23 PM   #2
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 7,831
Default Re: Flywheel Pressure plate balance issues.

What are you HEARING?

At 12-1500 RPMs, you should be feeling something if it's engine-related. Is the vibratory frequency at engine speed or at tire-rotation speed? DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


Everyone needs a ROOSTER for EGGS, and a BULL for MILK!
V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 05-03-2014, 04:39 PM   #3
GOSFAST
Senior Member
 
GOSFAST's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 1,052
Default Re: Flywheel Pressure plate balance issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Took my '35 out for a real ride. First one never went over 10MPH and ended in overheating and that issue is resolved. Increased the speed in each gear. at low
RPM 1200 to 1500 pretty smooth, then the vibration increases to an uncomfortable level. at 35 to 40 mph. Driving with the center floor section out I can feel / hear it coming from the front of the trans / bell.

This was the first assembly for me at putting a resurfaced FW, PP, clutch and rebuilt tranny. Has anyone had balance issues like this after a project like this? There isn't any special indexing when assembling the FW PP bolts is there? Torqued all per manual instruction. Clutch spline lined up and works fine, I know I'm going to have to pull the engine again and figure it out but want a plan before I start. Thinking maybe should've bought a new FW and PP.
Hi Tony, hard to diagnose certain vibration issues over the internet but I will say this, whether you are using a new setup from the box or a used one that has had any type repair work, including as simple as refacing the wheel, I would check the ass'y on a balancer before it gets installed. This totally eliminates it as a source of any vibration problem.

Since you are working with an "independently-balanced" unit you can balance both pieces as an ass'y, but when finished they should be clocked/indexed together as they came off the balancer!

Thanks. Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Over the years we've balanced an untold number of these ass'y's and have corrected just about the same amount! It is an item that MUST be checked before the fact! We recently had a "defective" flywheel from a major vendor. On returning it, they acknowledged the fact and replaced it, no questions asked!
GOSFAST is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 04:58 PM   #4
Ross F-1
Senior Member
 
Ross F-1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: NM
Posts: 2,353
Default Re: Flywheel Pressure plate balance issues.

I had a fresh rebuilt PP balanced with my flywheel. First they balanced the flywheel alone (they removed material 180* from the factory balancing holes, and of near the same size??), then they bolted on the PP and balanced them together. It took a piece of 1/2" bar about an inch long to achieve balance.
__________________
'52 F-1, EAB flathead
Ross F-1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 06:04 PM   #5
AnthonyG
Senior Member
 
AnthonyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pa.
Posts: 1,833
Default Re: Flywheel Pressure plate balance issues.

Yeah this is partially my impatiences as the engine builder originally convinced me that an 11 " clutch ( which I now know I didn't need ) would fit with the original '35 trans. Short story I broke the trans case when the counterweights from the PP wacked the tranny flange. So the builder sent me free of charge a resurfaced 10" PP & FW. I did notice when I took off the original FW he installed it had index marks on both the FW and PP ( white paint marks). The replaced FW, PP he sent had no index markings. I should have stopped but my experience with more modern 60's & 70's cars said probably will go together and be fine, NOT! Alright third time in and out with the engine I will have the FW, PP either purchased matched or take what I have and bring it some where and have it balanced together and marked before installing again.

It is what it is and ya gotta do what ya gotta do! Still learning at 64.
__________________
Nomad
AnthonyG is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 11:16 PM   #6
Pete
Senior Member
 
Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wa.
Posts: 4,076
Default Re: Flywheel Pressure plate balance issues.

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross F-1 View Post
I had a fresh rebuilt PP balanced with my flywheel. First they balanced the flywheel alone (they removed material 180* from the factory balancing holes, and of near the same size??), then they bolted on the PP and balanced them together. It took a piece of 1/2" bar about an inch long to achieve balance.
I hate thread hijacking but I have to comment on this.

No doubt that piece of half inch bar was welded to the clutch cover.
That is the most Mickey Mouse dangerous method of balancing a clutch cover that was ever invented.
Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2014, 12:52 AM   #7
ford3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: oroville calif.
Posts: 1,453
Default Re: Flywheel Pressure plate balance issues.

did you change the piolet bearing?
ford3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2014, 01:21 AM   #8
Ross F-1
Senior Member
 
Ross F-1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: NM
Posts: 2,353
Default Re: Flywheel Pressure plate balance issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post
I hate thread hijacking but I have to comment on this.

No doubt that piece of half inch bar was welded to the clutch cover.
That is the most Mickey Mouse dangerous method of balancing a clutch cover that was ever invented.
I thought so too, changed it for a diaphragm clutch.
__________________
'52 F-1, EAB flathead
Ross F-1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2014, 02:47 AM   #9
Tom Walker
Senior Member
 
Tom Walker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Leicester. UK
Posts: 404
Default Re: Flywheel Pressure plate balance issues.

Anthony, it is possible you can balance the flywheel/clutch assembly in the car yourself. If you can access the pressure plate bolts, substitute a bolt with another with four plain washers and longer bolt. Run motor and feel for improvement. It may be worse. If not cured move heavier bolt round clutch until improvement felt. Mark pp when you move bolt. Finally fit with Loctite.
This is no substitute for proper dynamic balancing during assembly, but I have a local balancing firm who have equipment to do this on their car lift, and it can work very well.
Tom Walker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2014, 07:38 AM   #10
AnthonyG
Senior Member
 
AnthonyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pa.
Posts: 1,833
Default Re: Flywheel Pressure plate balance issues.

ford3, I did put new TOB in. All is new.
Tom Walker, it's looks impossible to access the PP mounting bolts from the view window as they are too high up under the tranny flange from the window. you can see them but to get a wrench on one i don't think is possible. I will explore but pretty shore the engines coming out again. With the issues from the builder putting the wrong clutch the first time and now this, as I said it will be the third time. I think with all the practice I'll enter a competition for pulling and replacing Fattys. Gotta keep my sense of humor.
Thx
__________________
Nomad
AnthonyG is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2014, 09:14 AM   #11
DICK SPADARO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Altamont, NY
Posts: 1,004
Default Re: Flywheel Pressure plate balance issues.

If you feel the vibration at the bell connection of the trans you should look to check the condition of the U joint and the upper drive shaft bearing. If you have left the bearing out or the driveshaft is scoured from lack of lubricant at that area it will produce a vibration. Out of balance flywheel will make the engine shake not the trans.
__________________
dickspadaro.com
DICK SPADARO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2014, 09:29 AM   #12
AnthonyG
Senior Member
 
AnthonyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pa.
Posts: 1,833
Default Re: Flywheel Pressure plate balance issues.

Opened the view plate to see the PP when running, pretty obvious it's coming from the FW PP assy. U-joint and DS bearing in good shape, checked on reassy when I had engine and tranny out of car. They were lubricated very good and in perfect shape.
Thx
__________________
Nomad
AnthonyG is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2014, 12:13 PM   #13
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 12,396
Default Re: Flywheel Pressure plate balance issues.

I balance rotating assemblies all the time and a posted comment about the equal and oposite removal of weight struck me as odd. That would have counteracted the OEM balance job completely. It could be due to something as simple as replacing the starter ring gear though. A well balanced wheel should be capable of installing in any location on the crank but the bolt pattern only gives you two choices. I also find it odd that that great big weight had to be installed on a relatively small diameter rotating mass. I have a healthy distrust of the reproduction pressure plate covers and rotating disks. Some of them are junk. An old Borg Warner unit rebuilt 10-times is preferable to some of the new stuff.

Believe it or not, a person can get a pretty close balance by statically balancing the wheel and cover with something as simple as an old wheel bubble balancer as long as correct centers are maintained. I static balance the old Bell 47 rotors then check the dynamic balance after its all back together. I generally don't have to make any balance corrections and we're are talking a rotor that is over 37 feet in diameter.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2014, 12:25 PM   #14
Walt Dupont--Me.
Senior Member
 
Walt Dupont--Me.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Gardiner Me.
Posts: 4,200
Default Re: Flywheel Pressure plate balance issues.

Well my 2cents. Most PP you bye from any co. are rebuilt and all are usually out of balance. I had one that was 100 grams out, had to send it back. The flywheel is hardly ever out , very little. I get all my clutch and PP from Ford Wayne Clutch. The PP are real close. I always have the wheel and PP balanced and index. Walt
Walt Dupont--Me. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2014, 12:45 PM   #15
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 12,396
Default Re: Flywheel Pressure plate balance issues.

I always wonder what some of the rebuilders use in the way of machinery & jig tooling to resurface the clutch cover pressure plate. If they have it off kilter, it would be removing more metal on one side than the other. That would certainly affect the mass balance plus it might build a warp into the mix guaranteeing some problems down the road.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 08:02 PM   #16
AnthonyG
Senior Member
 
AnthonyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pa.
Posts: 1,833
Default Re: Flywheel Pressure plate balance issues.

Removed and re-installed engine today, replaced unbalanced un-matched 10" PP & FW with balanced, matched, indexed, set. Pretty amazed at how well it went. Even left the Red's headers on the engine for de-install and re-install. Will fire up tomorrow, feeling pretty good about it though!!
__________________
Nomad
AnthonyG is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 08:15 PM   #17
40cpe
Senior Member
 
40cpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Star, MS
Posts: 3,724
Default Re: Flywheel Pressure plate balance issues.

That is a good day's work, I'd say. Congratulations on sticking with it.
40cpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 08:35 PM   #18
Karl Wolf
Senior Member
 
Karl Wolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mill Valley,Ca.
Posts: 1,409
Default Re: Flywheel Pressure plate balance issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
I balance rotating assemblies all the time and a posted comment about the equal and oposite removal of weight struck me as odd. That would have counteracted the OEM balance job completely. It could be due to something as simple as replacing the starter ring gear though. A well balanced wheel should be capable of installing in any location on the crank but the bolt pattern only gives you two choices. I also find it odd that that great big weight had to be installed on a relatively small diameter rotating mass. I have a healthy distrust of the reproduction pressure plate covers and rotating disks. Some of them are junk. An old Borg Warner unit rebuilt 10-times is preferable to some of the new stuff.

Believe it or not, a person can get a pretty close balance by statically balancing the wheel and cover with something as simple as an old wheel bubble balancer as long as correct centers are maintained. I static balance the old Bell 47 rotors then check the dynamic balance after its all back together. I generally don't have to make any balance corrections and we're are talking a rotor that is over 37 feet in diameter.
I found myself replacing a clutch cover a while back. I used an old triple beam scale I have. I put three steel ball bearings under three of the (equally spaced) mounting holes for the pressure plate and carefully weighed and recorded the differences between... I would up with a small steel slug taped to a specific place to make all three bearing supported holes weigh the same, then tig welded the weight in that spot...

Karl
Karl Wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 09:14 PM   #19
Pete
Senior Member
 
Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wa.
Posts: 4,076
Default Re: Flywheel Pressure plate balance issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl Wolf View Post
I found myself replacing a clutch cover a while back. I used an old triple beam scale I have. I put three steel ball bearings under three of the (equally spaced) mounting holes for the pressure plate and carefully weighed and recorded the differences between... I would up with a small steel slug taped to a specific place to make all three bearing supported holes weigh the same, then tig welded the weight in that spot...

Karl
Why didn't you drill a spring stud like you are supposed to?
That's the way the factory does it.
Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 10:55 PM   #20
34billct
Senior Member
 
34billct's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: westport ct.
Posts: 166
Default Re: Flywheel Pressure plate balance issues.

I had an engine vibration issue and was convinced it was the engine BUT it turned out to be a rear motor mount that the rubber had hardened though it looked good. Replaced with a new one and all was well. Bill
34billct is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:27 AM.