The Ford Barn

ED32BB · 02-08-2013, 07:38 PM

I have a T roadster with a Chevy S-10 T-5 trans, can it be towed in neutral at highway speed for a prolonged distance, with out harm? Will the T-5 lubricate properly in neutral,when being towed at highway speed?

I am towing with a 32.

fenders53 · 02-08-2013, 07:40 PM

Is there a reason why you can't drop the driveshaft? That is usually the best answer for a long tow.

fordcragar · 02-08-2013, 08:02 PM

Pull the driveshaft and put something in the back of the trans so the fluid doesn't leak out. HF has a tool for about $7.

Mart · 02-09-2013, 05:10 AM

I suppose knowing exactly how far and how fast would help in making a decision, but in theory at least, if you put it in neutral and use a shaped piece of wood to hold the clutch pedal down, then the gearbox can slowly turn over just due to it's internal friction, and by being able to revolve, the oil will be able to circulate.

That is a second choice to removing the driveshaft. You can undo the axle end and if it can be safely moved to the side and heldsecurely clear of the pinion flange then you don't need to worry about plugging the trans.

If it's a one-off (house move or similar) then removing the driveshaft is the best way. If something that will be repeated often, (going to and from events) then the effort of removing the shaft has to be weighed up against just holding the pedal down.

Lots of things can go wrong when towing, have you considered hiring a trailer?

Mart.

blucar · 02-09-2013, 10:57 AM

As a general rule any manual transmission in a RWD vehicle can be towed with the wheels on the ground and the drive shaft connected.. However, "don't let the directions on the can outsmart you"... Find someone that has a Chevy pickup/Blazer with the T-5 trans, look in their owners manual under the "towing section" for the required procedure to tow the vehicle..
Some late model vehicles that I am aware of state that towing with the wheels on the ground is permissible, however, with limitations.. i.e. not to exceed 45 mph and/or distances over 50 miles...
I tow a vehicle behind my large RV.. Through the years I change towed vehicles for several reasons.. Before I buy a new "dingy" I always read the owners manual.. Don't trust car salesman and/or service managers...

Flat Ernie · 02-09-2013, 12:17 PM

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I had to tow one once w/o access to many tools or a jack, so couldn't get the driveshaft off. We could get the shifter off, so we overfilled the trans with ATF to ensure anything spinning would be lubricated.

We didn't have super far to go and were on the cusp of 'should we or shouldn't we' kind of thing. We went slower than we would normally (50-55 vs 70+) and stopped after 50 miles and 100 miles to feel and see if anything was getting warm/hot - all good.

Once where we could work on it safely, we drained all the ATF and refilled to correct level. Nothing untoward ever happened with that tranny...

This is far less preferable than pulling the driveshaft....if we'd had a jack and the right tools, that's what we would have done.

V8COOPMAN · 02-09-2013, 01:09 PM

Agree with everything Ernie has said above. As a general rule with MOST manual-shift transmissions, the cluster gear needs to be rotating down in the fluid to properly lubricate everything that needs to be lubricated while the OUTPUT shaft is turning...even while placed in neutral. DD

lowandratty · 02-09-2013, 01:52 PM

When the driveshaft is in, and the trany is in N all the gears inside are spinning, and the mainshaft is spinning, The spinning gears will throw the fluid everywhere inside the case and everything will get lube, you can tow in N without removing the driveshaft.
A T-5 trans dose not have a pump in it like and automatic, all the lubrication comes from the the gears spinning in the fluid and throwing the fluid all over the inside of the case.

Mart · 02-09-2013, 02:21 PM

^^^
Not true.

Only the output shaft and the synchro hubs are spinning. All the gears are sitting still. That's why you should hold the clutch in the released position, this allows the gears in the trans to rotate if they "want to" and while rotating, they circulate the oil.

Mart.

V8COOPMAN · 02-09-2013, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowandratty

When the driveshaft is in, and the trany is in N all the gears inside are spinning, and the mainshaft is spinning, The spinning gears will throw the fluid everywhere inside the case and everything will get lube, you can tow in N without removing the driveshaft.
A T-5 trans dose not have a pump in it like and automatic, all the lubrication comes from the the gears spinning in the fluid and throwing the fluid all over the inside of the case.

WRONG,young grasshopper! When in NEUTRAL, the OUTPUT shaft IS being rotated by the forward motion of the vehicle, via the driveshaft, but since the trans is in NEUTRAL, NONE of the gears on the rotating OUTPUT shaft are driving the CLUSTER gear, which is down at the bottom, sitting in the lubricant, and NOT "throwing the fluid everywhere inside the case", as you say. If the cluster WERE turning, the INPUT shaft (which is directly geared to the CLUSTER) would also be turning, hence...also turning the engine, via the clutch. DD

V8COOPMAN · 02-09-2013, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mart

^^^
Not true.

Only the output shaft and the synchro hubs are spinning. All the gears are sitting still. That's why you should hold the clutch in the released position, this allows the gears in the trans to rotate if they "want to" and while rotating, they circulate the oil.

Mart.

Mostly correct, Mart, but only true IF the trans is shifted into any forward gear, thus...making the cluster rotate. DD

lowandratty · 02-09-2013, 03:01 PM

Ok, how is the input shaft mated to the mainshaft, is there not a seperation there ???
If the engine is running, trans in N the mainshaft with all the gears is spinning, I thought the mainshaft stopped spinning in N by being disconnected from the mainshaft, it must only stop or slow down with the use of the clutch. So to be safe, put it in N and start the engine and let it run when being towed ??? or pull the driveshaft.
BTW
I have a ford ranger 5sp. I have flat towed in N over 60,000 miles behind my motor home with no issues. Maybe I am just lucky.

Mart · 02-09-2013, 03:06 PM

"Mostly correct, Mart, but only true IF the trans is shifted into any forward gear, thus...making the cluster rotate. DD"

They do turn because the shaft spinning inside the gears tends to take the gears with it (if the clutch is released). The gears will turn at a speed somewhere between the output shaft speed and zero.

Putting it in a gear is also a good idea, but make it a high gear. If you had it in first and reached highway speeds the clutch plate would be turning too fast. If the device holding the clutch down slipped out of place, the clutch would engage and the car would try to turn the engine over. Not a disaster, but in my view, just having it in neutral with the clutch disengaged keeps the rotational speeds down, but still does the job. If the device slips out of place you are just back where you would have been if you had not done anything other than put it in Neutral. (Which has been done without problem above).

Mart.

V8COOPMAN · 02-09-2013, 04:31 PM

"They do turn because the shaft spinning inside the gears tends to take the gears with it (if the clutch is released)."

Mart...With the trans in NEUTRAL, and with the mainshaft being turned via the driveshaft (and with the engine OFF), remember that the clutch being RELEASED or ENGAGED has nothing to do with any of this. The clutch only connects the input shaft of the transmission to the crankshaft/engine. With the trans in NEUTRAL, the mainshaft will be turned (by the driveshaft) whether or not the clutch is released. YES, the "gears" mounted on the mainshaft will try to turn (to a small degree) with the mainshaft via friction, but NOTHING will be turning the CLUSTER gear, which is mostly submerged in lubricant.

Putting it in a gear is also a good idea, but make it a high gear. I agree...4th gear would probably be appropriate...WITH CLUTCH RELEASED (DISENGAGED)! The whole idea of THIS method is to make the CLUSTER gear rotate, which it would, to oil the trans. DD

V8COOPMAN · 02-09-2013, 04:59 PM

[QUOTE=lowandratty;588752]Ok, how is the input shaft mated to the mainshaft, is there not a seperation there ???
If the engine is running, trans in N the mainshaft with all the gears is spinning, I thought the mainshaft stopped spinning in N by being disconnected from the mainshaft... QUOTE]

The nose (front) of the MAINSHAFT is not "connected" to the INPUT shaft. The nose of the MAINSHAFT slides into a recess in the rear of the INPUT shaft and is allowed to rotate FREELY within the rear of the input via a bearing on the nose of the mainshaft. The only time the input and mainshafts are "connected" is when 4th gear slider "connects" them MECHANICALLY to rotate at the same speed. In any other gear than 4th, the input and mainshafts will turn at different speeds. In REVERSE, they turn in different directions. DD

rotorwrench · 02-09-2013, 05:23 PM

If you overfill a standard transmission with lube the mainshaft will get oil but some gearboxes are not all that easy to overfill. In most cases, it's easier to pull the driveshaft & cap or bag the tailshaft.

Mart · 02-09-2013, 07:22 PM

V8COOPMAN:
Thanks for trying to educate me about transmissions, but I do understand how they work already, thanks.

The mainshaft turns and (as you say) tries to turn the gears that sit on it. They are in constant mesh with the cluster gear and the cluster gear is in mesh with the main drive gear and the clutch disk.

The inherent drag of the gears on the shaft will keep everything turning over nicely and keep lube circulating around the box.

Mart.

V8COOPMAN · 02-09-2013, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mart

V8COOPMAN:
Thanks for trying to educate me about transmissions, but I do understand how they work already, thanks.

The mainshaft turns and (as you say) tries to turn the gears that sit on it. They are in constant mesh with the cluster gear and the cluster gear is in mesh with the main drive gear and the clutch disk.

The inherent drag of the gears on the shaft will keep everything turning over nicely and keep lube circulating around the box.

Mart.

We're cool, Mart! DD

Flat Ernie · 02-10-2013, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mart

V8COOPMAN:
The inherent drag of the gears on the shaft will keep everything turning over nicely and keep lube circulating around the box.
.

Quote:

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Mostly correct, Mart, but only true IF the trans is shifted into any forward gear, thus...making the cluster rotate. DD

I think what Mart's trying to say is that the inertia of the meshed gears in concert with the viscosity of the oil will tend to get everything rotating, albeit very slowly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

If you overfill a standard transmission with lube the mainshaft will get oil but some gearboxes are not all that easy to overfill. In most cases, it's easier to pull the driveshaft & cap or bag the tailshaft.

Agreed. Like I said, if we'd had all the tools, we'd have simply pulled the driveshaft. In our case, the T5 is easy to fill via the shifter, so we did that.
The best bet is to pull the driveshaft, but if you can overfill it, it will help.

In the case of the T5, 5th gear is always meshed and turning, but if it's not in 5th gear, the synchro has it disconnected from the countershaft, so no real benefit beyond the tailhousing is experienced simply by being in neutral. Mart's suggestion to engage the clutch will help somewhat, but with the ATF in there, not sure how much will spin/not spin....I think with old 90wt, it'd definitely have things turning over slowly.

blueblood · 02-10-2013, 07:46 PM

if you have the clutch pedal pushed to the floor what is lubricating your throw out brg? put it in heutral make sure it stays there and drive normal.thousands of people do this everyday without problems.anyone with with any sense sits at a stop sign or red light in neutral not with the clutch held down,this saves the tob.yes ,gauranteed trouble free is to pull the shaft and plug the unit and tape or clamp the plug.throw out bearings only fail from use so the more they spin the quicker they fail.period they get greased once and only once.

02-08-2013, 07:38 PM	#1
ED32BB Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: LAKE ISABELLA CA Posts: 25	T-5 trans in a towed vehicle ? I have a T roadster with a Chevy S-10 T-5 trans, can it be towed in neutral at highway speed for a prolonged distance, with out harm? Will the T-5 lubricate properly in neutral,when being towed at highway speed? I am towing with a 32.

02-08-2013, 07:40 PM	#2
fenders53 Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 30	Re: T-5 trans in a towed vehicle ? Is there a reason why you can't drop the driveshaft? That is usually the best answer for a long tow.

02-09-2013, 05:10 AM	#4
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,744	Re: T-5 trans in a towed vehicle ? I suppose knowing exactly how far and how fast would help in making a decision, but in theory at least, if you put it in neutral and use a shaped piece of wood to hold the clutch pedal down, then the gearbox can slowly turn over just due to it's internal friction, and by being able to revolve, the oil will be able to circulate. That is a second choice to removing the driveshaft. You can undo the axle end and if it can be safely moved to the side and heldsecurely clear of the pinion flange then you don't need to worry about plugging the trans. If it's a one-off (house move or similar) then removing the driveshaft is the best way. If something that will be repeated often, (going to and from events) then the effort of removing the shaft has to be weighed up against just holding the pedal down. Lots of things can go wrong when towing, have you considered hiring a trailer? Mart.

02-09-2013, 10:57 AM	#5
blucar Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Ventura, CA Posts: 2,464	Re: T-5 trans in a towed vehicle ? As a general rule any manual transmission in a RWD vehicle can be towed with the wheels on the ground and the drive shaft connected.. However, "don't let the directions on the can outsmart you"... Find someone that has a Chevy pickup/Blazer with the T-5 trans, look in their owners manual under the "towing section" for the required procedure to tow the vehicle.. Some late model vehicles that I am aware of state that towing with the wheels on the ground is permissible, however, with limitations.. i.e. not to exceed 45 mph and/or distances over 50 miles... I tow a vehicle behind my large RV.. Through the years I change towed vehicles for several reasons.. Before I buy a new "dingy" I always read the owners manual.. Don't trust car salesman and/or service managers... __________________ Bill.... 36 5 win cpe

02-09-2013, 12:17 PM	#6
Flat Ernie Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: 74FL Posts: 323	Re: T-5 trans in a towed vehicle ? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I had to tow one once w/o access to many tools or a jack, so couldn't get the driveshaft off. We could get the shifter off, so we overfilled the trans with ATF to ensure anything spinning would be lubricated. We didn't have super far to go and were on the cusp of 'should we or shouldn't we' kind of thing. We went slower than we would normally (50-55 vs 70+) and stopped after 50 miles and 100 miles to feel and see if anything was getting warm/hot - all good. Once where we could work on it safely, we drained all the ATF and refilled to correct level. Nothing untoward ever happened with that tranny... This is far less preferable than pulling the driveshaft....if we'd had a jack and the right tools, that's what we would have done. __________________ Daddy always said, "If yer gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough" and I'm one tough sumbitch! T5 Tech

02-09-2013, 01:09 PM	#7
V8COOPMAN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON Posts: 11,106	Re: T-5 trans in a towed vehicle ? Agree with everything Ernie has said above. As a general rule with MOST manual-shift transmissions, the cluster gear needs to be rotating down in the fluid to properly lubricate everything that needs to be lubricated while the OUTPUT shaft is turning...even while placed in neutral. DD __________________ *Click Links Below* __ ▼ *'35-'36 W/8BA & MECHANICAL FAN* *T5 W/TORQUE TUBE*

02-09-2013, 01:52 PM	#8
lowandratty Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 55	Re: T-5 trans in a towed vehicle ? When the driveshaft is in, and the trany is in N all the gears inside are spinning, and the mainshaft is spinning, The spinning gears will throw the fluid everywhere inside the case and everything will get lube, you can tow in N without removing the driveshaft. A T-5 trans dose not have a pump in it like and automatic, all the lubrication comes from the the gears spinning in the fluid and throwing the fluid all over the inside of the case.

02-09-2013, 02:21 PM	#9
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,744	Re: T-5 trans in a towed vehicle ? ^^^ Not true. Only the output shaft and the synchro hubs are spinning. All the gears are sitting still. That's why you should hold the clutch in the released position, this allows the gears in the trans to rotate if they "want to" and while rotating, they circulate the oil. Mart.

02-09-2013, 03:01 PM	#12
lowandratty Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 55	Re: T-5 trans in a towed vehicle ? Ok, how is the input shaft mated to the mainshaft, is there not a seperation there ??? If the engine is running, trans in N the mainshaft with all the gears is spinning, I thought the mainshaft stopped spinning in N by being disconnected from the mainshaft, it must only stop or slow down with the use of the clutch. So to be safe, put it in N and start the engine and let it run when being towed ??? or pull the driveshaft. BTW I have a ford ranger 5sp. I have flat towed in N over 60,000 miles behind my motor home with no issues. Maybe I am just lucky.

02-09-2013, 03:06 PM	#13
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,744	Re: T-5 trans in a towed vehicle ? "Mostly correct, Mart, but only true IF the trans is shifted into any forward gear, thus...making the cluster rotate. DD" They do turn because the shaft spinning inside the gears tends to take the gears with it (if the clutch is released). The gears will turn at a speed somewhere between the output shaft speed and zero. Putting it in a gear is also a good idea, but make it a high gear. If you had it in first and reached highway speeds the clutch plate would be turning too fast. If the device holding the clutch down slipped out of place, the clutch would engage and the car would try to turn the engine over. Not a disaster, but in my view, just having it in neutral with the clutch disengaged keeps the rotational speeds down, but still does the job. If the device slips out of place you are just back where you would have been if you had not done anything other than put it in Neutral. (Which has been done without problem above). Mart. Last edited by Mart; 02-09-2013 at 03:16 PM.

02-09-2013, 04:31 PM	#14
V8COOPMAN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON Posts: 11,106	Re: T-5 trans in a towed vehicle ? "They do turn because the shaft spinning inside the gears tends to take the gears with it (if the clutch is released)." Mart...With the trans in NEUTRAL, and with the mainshaft being turned via the driveshaft (and with the engine OFF), remember that the clutch being RELEASED or ENGAGED has nothing to do with any of this. The clutch only connects the input shaft of the transmission to the crankshaft/engine. With the trans in NEUTRAL, the mainshaft will be turned (by the driveshaft) whether or not the clutch is released. YES, the "gears" mounted on the mainshaft will try to turn (to a small degree) with the mainshaft via friction, but NOTHING will be turning the CLUSTER gear, which is mostly submerged in lubricant. Putting it in a gear is also a good idea, but make it a high gear. I agree...4th gear would probably be appropriate...WITH CLUTCH RELEASED (DISENGAGED)! The whole idea of THIS method is to make the CLUSTER gear rotate, which it would, to oil the trans. DD __________________ *Click Links Below* __ ▼ *'35-'36 W/8BA & MECHANICAL FAN* *T5 W/TORQUE TUBE*

02-09-2013, 04:59 PM	#15
V8COOPMAN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON Posts: 11,106	Re: T-5 trans in a towed vehicle ? [QUOTE=lowandratty;588752]Ok, how is the input shaft mated to the mainshaft, is there not a seperation there ??? If the engine is running, trans in N the mainshaft with all the gears is spinning, I thought the mainshaft stopped spinning in N by being disconnected from the mainshaft... QUOTE] The nose (front) of the MAINSHAFT is not "connected" to the INPUT shaft. The nose of the MAINSHAFT slides into a recess in the rear of the INPUT shaft and is allowed to rotate FREELY within the rear of the input via a bearing on the nose of the mainshaft. The only time the input and mainshafts are "connected" is when 4th gear slider "connects" them MECHANICALLY to rotate at the same speed. In any other gear than 4th, the input and mainshafts will turn at different speeds. In REVERSE, they turn in different directions. DD __________________ *Click Links Below* __ ▼ *'35-'36 W/8BA & MECHANICAL FAN* *T5 W/TORQUE TUBE*

02-09-2013, 05:23 PM	#16
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: T-5 trans in a towed vehicle ? If you overfill a standard transmission with lube the mainshaft will get oil but some gearboxes are not all that easy to overfill. In most cases, it's easier to pull the driveshaft & cap or bag the tailshaft.

02-09-2013, 07:22 PM	#17
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,744	Re: T-5 trans in a towed vehicle ? V8COOPMAN: Thanks for trying to educate me about transmissions, but I do understand how they work already, thanks. The mainshaft turns and (as you say) tries to turn the gears that sit on it. They are in constant mesh with the cluster gear and the cluster gear is in mesh with the main drive gear and the clutch disk. The inherent drag of the gears on the shaft will keep everything turning over nicely and keep lube circulating around the box. Mart.

02-10-2013, 07:46 PM	#20
blueblood Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: gilmanton nh Posts: 38	Re: T-5 trans in a towed vehicle ? if you have the clutch pedal pushed to the floor what is lubricating your throw out brg? put it in heutral make sure it stays there and drive normal.thousands of people do this everyday without problems.anyone with with any sense sits at a stop sign or red light in neutral not with the clutch held down,this saves the tob.yes ,gauranteed trouble free is to pull the shaft and plug the unit and tape or clamp the plug.throw out bearings only fail from use so the more they spin the quicker they fail.period they get greased once and only once.