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Old 04-26-2021, 09:15 AM   #1
Dick Carne
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Default Cabriolet Top Installation

Greetings. I'm hopeful that someone here can recommend a good installer for the top for our 68C Cabriolet, preferably somewhere near the Atlanta area or at least in the southeast. I got a top kit from Mike at Classtique a while back, but it is my understanding that these are somewhat tricky to install. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your help.
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Old 04-26-2021, 04:56 PM   #2
MAG
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Default Re: Cabriolet Top Installation

They are tricky to install properly. Too much forward tension on the top and the doors will not close. A friend had many problems with his installation and ended up taking his car to Elizabeth, former owner of Classtique, to get her to install it. She did a great job.
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Old 04-26-2021, 05:04 PM   #3
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Default Re: Cabriolet Top Installation

First I would do is to check the top bows and make sure that they have enough "crown" and are not sagged or are new bows modeled after sagged originals. The no. 2 bow should have a steel reinforcement for added strength

Obviously the interior belt rail covering will have to be put on before the top kit.

The bows need to be covered in bow drill first. The no. 2 bow should be covered using only one piece of bowdrill, which is perfectly doable by putting it on with the weave diagonally to the bow. The triple hinge parts except for the pivot point of the hinge should be covered with the bows. The base of the hinge should be covered with the belt rail upholstery

I started with positioning the no. 2 bow correctly, (cut some custom wood peaces to hold it in place while installing), Then installed the back flap with the rear window.

You should have all top Irons in place and keep a sharp eye on the clearance between the no. 1 bow and the rollup windows as you stretch on the top constituents. Next goes the straps that connect the bows and the header, then the top padding.

Then I temporarily tacked in place the main top deck, taking a lot of time to make sure that everything was centered and would come out as I wanted it. Then I very carefully marked off and cut the top material over the roll up windows and sent off the kit to have the welting and the reinforcements over the windows sewn in. (By someone with a better sewing machine than what I've got)

Putting on the main top deck I found it extremely handy that I had modified the upper landau bracket by cutting off the stud to which the upper part of the landau attaches to and drilling a hole, tapping it and manufacturing a dismountable stud which can be taken off while stretching the material in place.

Woprd of warning : my experience comes from working on a 68-B and there may be some features of the 68-C that I have overlooked .

In general there are some nice original photos of what the top should look like in "The model A Ford as Henry built it" also I believe that Gary Johnsons 68C on www.modelahouse.com is a nice example of how it can be done.
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Old 04-26-2021, 06:32 PM   #4
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Default Re: Cabriolet Top Installation

The USA built 68C cars have the landau hinge lowered from the belt line where the earlier models are on the belt line. This was due to the slant windshield. There is no extra work to cover it.

Since this is a folding top, it's actually less difficult to trim than a Sport Coupe. It does have a difficulty factor that is a good bit more than a plain Roaster or even a Deluxe Roadster. Not everyone wants to take on one of these upscale models as a complete DIY project but it is likely easier than the OP might imagine. There is bound to be a trim shop that will do it. Hopefully some other poster may know of one that doesn't mind using a kit.
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Old 04-26-2021, 06:41 PM   #5
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Default Re: Cabriolet Top Installation

My installer said if he knew what a nightmare it was beforehand he would have quoted me at least double what he did. Whew !
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Old 04-26-2021, 08:01 PM   #6
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Cabriolet Top Installation

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The USA built 68C cars have the landau hinge lowered from the belt line where the earlier models are on the belt line. This was due to the slant windshield. There is no extra work to cover it.

Since this is a folding top, it's actually less difficult to trim than a Sport Coupe. It does have a difficulty factor that is a good bit more than a plain Roaster or even a Deluxe Roadster. Not everyone wants to take on one of these upscale models as a complete DIY project but it is likely easier than the OP might imagine. There is bound to be a trim shop that will do it. Hopefully some other poster may know of one that doesn't mind using a kit.
Have you actually done one of the 68C tops, -or is your advice hypothetical??
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Old 04-27-2021, 06:29 AM   #7
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Default Re: Cabriolet Top Installation

When setting the body you have to allow for the forward draw. Usually a good 1/8”
Also set the assembly with landau irons et al to set the pressure. Most of the pressure comes from the assembled top and little from the fabric; fabric relaxes rather quickly.
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Old 04-27-2021, 09:21 AM   #8
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Default Re: Cabriolet Top Installation

I concede to the fact that I haven't done a wood bodied car like the 68C Cabriolet. They do have a lot more flexibility than the steel bodied counterparts. There is a reason Folks don't see too many Chevrolet cars of the same era due to that fact. Wood bodied cars don't allow for much time in the elements and wood is not predictable about how it deteriorates. I certainly wouldn't be afraid of one though. A person just has to understand that there can be adverse reactions to certain assembly procedures unless there is previous experience in the mix. There will be less folks out there with experience over time so a person has to start somewhere just to gain that skill level.

I'm sure Ford has a valid procedure that if followed, even a 1st timer can get it down using good common sense and care to look long and hard before leaping. Set up the structure first as the body is assembled and that includes the top structure. If the top material can not be made to fit the structure then a top can be fabricated to fit any structure. This is where the kit may have some difficulty for fit. A good trimmer can fabricate a top to fit any structure. The kit idea doesn't always work well since the wood body cars were mostly hand crafted and some can be different enough to make a kit problematic.

Try re-covering an early wood airplane and then tell me about difficulty.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 04-27-2021 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 04-27-2021, 11:35 AM   #9
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Default Re: Cabriolet Top Installation

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Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
I concede to the fact that I haven't done a wood bodied car like the 68C Cabriolet. They do have a lot more flexibility than the steel bodied counterparts. There is a reason Folks don't see too many Chevrolet cars of the same era due to that fact. Wood bodied cars don't allow for much time in the elements and wood is not predictable about how it deteriorates. I certainly wouldn't be afraid of one though. A person just has to understand that there can be adverse reactions to certain assembly procedures unless there is previous experience in the mix. There will be less folks out there with experience over time so a person has to start somewhere just to gain that skill level.

I'm sure Ford has a valid procedure that if followed, even a 1st timer can get it down using good common sense and care to look long and hard before leaping. Set up the structure first as the body is assembled and that includes the top structure. If the top material can not be made to fit the structure then a top can be fabricated to fit any structure. This is where the kit may have some difficulty for fit. A good trimmer can fabricate a top to fit any structure. The kit idea doesn't always work well since the wood body cars were mostly hand crafted and some can be different enough to make a kit problematic.

Try re-covering an early wood airplane and then tell me about difficulty.

I understand, -and that is the reason why I asked because I did find them to be much more difficult than a Sport or Biz Coupe top.

One of the very reasons I did not throw my name into Dick's hat to take on his job was the very thing you mentioned. Mike does good work however he is definitely at a disadvantage when he is sewing something that he is many miles away from which doesn't allow him to measure and fit as he sews. Likewise, any trimmer installing that top is going to be at a severe disadvantage because if the top doesn't fit correctly, many hours can be wasted just trying to make it fit. I find that things have seemingly changed where expectations are much higher today than say 25 years ago. It used to be that a few wrinkles here and there, -or binding that did not have the straightest stitches was overlooked because "its just an old car". Today, the mindset is if I am paying a professional to do it, it needs to be near-perfect for the amount of money they are charging. I understand both sides of the fence.

As for dope & fabric, I have participating on Peit. Kinda like wallpapering a wall made of air!!
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Old 04-28-2021, 04:08 PM   #10
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Default Re: Cabriolet Top Installation

Another question I have no answer for would be if Ford made any of the tops for the cars like the Cabriolet. The wood body cars were generally fabricated by subcontractors like Murray and Briggs. Ford made up a lot of interior coverings at the old Highland Park plant but I have no idea about who made what for the Cabriolets. If the bodies were assembled in jigs then the tolerances might have worked OK for pre-assembled top sets.
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Old 04-28-2021, 05:08 PM   #11
Kevin in NJ
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Default Re: Cabriolet Top Installation

So I have not done a top as of yet. I have a 68C and have limited clues about it.

I have some questions you will want to think about as you might find a big difference in how the process goes.

What type of joint does the #1 bow have? That is where the upright piece meets the cross piece. If you have an overlap joint, good luck and I will end the conversation there. If you have the bottom piece fitting in a slot in the cross piece things will work much better.

Is the back side of the #1 bow where the upper landau screws in flat? It should be.

Have you check the curve of the #1 and #2 bow against the prints? From the factory they would have a curve. Over time they flattened out and pushed out the sides. This is what some wood guys have copied. This will also cause the top irons to not fold back properly and the top will not fully go down without messing up the fit.

The rear bow will be set to cause the rear of the top to lean forward about 4 degrees. You MUST be sure that the belt wood has been angled forward enough to allow for the tilt plus the thickness of the bow drill.

You need to understand the body is actually a mechanical device. When the top is up the forces on the hinge point will be high. You must mock up the top wood until it goes up smooth and does not distort the body. A small amount of force compressing the landaus is needed to hold them. More force will come when the top is installed, or at least that is what I was told by people who have done this.
The header and header pan set up the relationship of the stud to the top of the #1 bow. This sets #1 bow upright to be parallel to the back of the window. I can tell you from experience things being off by 1/8" here and there can wack out the top installation.

Your door dovetails. The sliders MUST move with moderate pressure from your fingers. If they are real hard to move they will break things and the door will not close properly. The dovetails are critical for keep the door from beating the door jamb to death.

What I am trying to say is, if you want the car to work right you really need to pay attention to details. If you look at the 68C article you can see the jig system they used. They were likely building the bodies to 1/16" or less accuracy if I had to guess.

Good luck and have fun.
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Old 04-29-2021, 09:21 AM   #12
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Default Re: Cabriolet Top Installation

You have some very good information there Kevin in NJ. This kind of info gives folks inspiration to make the effort to tackle difficult restoration projects. Many of the old cars with wood structure have deterioration to the extent where just the original wood form information is very valuable but you have a lot more there specific to the 68C and metal form as well.

I don't have a Pullmax so the idea of using the arbor press with fabricated dies for forming is a pretty good one. I may have to try that. I usually just hammer the stuff out but anything that will do the job and allow for excellent control is good.
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Old 04-29-2021, 09:33 PM   #13
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Default Re: Cabriolet Top Installation

For metal work I bought videos to watch. Shrinking magic I think was the one that really made a difference.

Understanding when it shrinks, when it is stretched and how it affects the dimensions of the metal changed how I approached metal work. I started doing things I did not think possible before.

I wanted all the fancy tools I saw people use. For a lot of the work as a hobbyist you can do well with a few quality tools and knowledge. It is much slower but you can pull of some good work. Where you start needing special tooling would be making long sections of a shape.

The one more pricey tool I would recommend buying if you want to be serious about fancy metal work is a decent TIG. The point heat lets you do things you cant imagine until you try it. I will not use MIG to put panels together anymore. I make close panels and tig the weld correcting the shrink as I go along. You can put together metal and have it to shape with minimal if any filler to level.
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Old 04-30-2021, 09:05 AM   #14
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Default Re: Cabriolet Top Installation

I still use the old faithful gas welding techniques but I do have access to a TIG set up when I need it. Shrinking and stretching steel is a learned skill and the metallurgy involved is a good thing to study for the work to be accomplished.

Auto upholstery is also a learned skill and just as important when doing these type projects. With wood cars a person also has to be a bit of a carpenter at heart. I love this hobby.
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Old 04-30-2021, 09:14 AM   #15
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Default Re: Cabriolet Top Installation

Hmmmm....


The original posters' question was about tips for top installation. I have not tried to use a TIG welder for installation of top material, but I think I will abstain for the time being... :-)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ View Post
For metal work I bought videos to watch. Shrinking magic I think was the one that really made a difference.

Understanding when it shrinks, when it is stretched and how it affects the dimensions of the metal changed how I approached metal work. I started doing things I did not think possible before.

I wanted all the fancy tools I saw people use. For a lot of the work as a hobbyist you can do well with a few quality tools and knowledge. It is much slower but you can pull of some good work. Where you start needing special tooling would be making long sections of a shape.

The one more pricey tool I would recommend buying if you want to be serious about fancy metal work is a decent TIG. The point heat lets you do things you cant imagine until you try it. I will not use MIG to put panels together anymore. I make close panels and tig the weld correcting the shrink as I go along. You can put together metal and have it to shape with minimal if any filler to level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
I still use the old faithful gas welding techniques but I do have access to a TIG set up when I need it. Shrinking and stretching steel is a learned skill and the metallurgy involved is a good thing to study for the work to be accomplished.

Auto upholstery is also a learned skill and just as important when doing these type projects. With wood cars a person also has to be a bit of a carpenter at heart. I love this hobby.
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Old 04-30-2021, 09:26 AM   #16
Dick Carne
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Default Re: Cabriolet Top Installation

I had tried to respond earlier but did so on my I-pad - nothing came out. However, since then, there have been several additional responses and I thank each of you profusely for taking the time to offer your thoughts and suggestions.

I was very fortunate when I acquired this car in that it had been owned by the former owner (and then his son) since 1936, so it was essentially a two-owner car when I purchased it. The really nice thing about this car was that with the exception of the rearview mirror, it seemed to be complete and altogether fairly solid. As for alignment issues, I replaced all of the floor sills, but did not touch the adjusting rods, so the doors still close remarkably well, have good alignment, and do not seem to be stressed at any point in their operation. I was also able to obtain new top bows (I got them through Snyders, but I think they were probably made by Classic Wood). The bows have a nice subtle arc to them, and the top mechanism itself folds up and down with ease.

Once again, everyone's comments have been greatly appreciated, and for those that have actually worked on this phase of restoration on any of these old gentlemen, your thoughts and suggestions have proven to be most insightful. Please continue to offer any thoughts and recommendations that might come to mind, as I do check this site when and as I am able. Thanks again to all.
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