Looking for 1928 Briggs Fordor wood plans.

[Fdohnke]

Got the time and tools but need the wood plans for a 1928 Briggs Fordor, where can I get them?

[Rowdy]

Dad has some wood pieces for a 1929 60-B he would sell for patterns. Not enough for a complete car, but possibly a start. Looking for good stuff for patterns is a real pain. Be thankfull that even the pieces you can not get patterns for are atleast available from the parts suppliers unlike a lot of the wood for the back and floor of the 1929 130-A Delivery and some other bodies. Rod

[1930artdeco]

You can't-that is the short answer. Here is the long one. How much wood do you have and is it patternable? If not you can get the wood from a vendor but I hear they need a bit of work to fit snuggly. You can try Dan Gambill who is the pres. of the Town Sedan Club at [email protected]. If you need just a few pieces Dan showed a video of Brothers A Wood in Mesa Az. There they will do individual pieces, no idea how good they are. But the Dan has worked with them. If you are made of money you can get the original drawings from the Benson Archives. Hope this helps.

Mike

[fiddlybits]

When I priced the wood for my leatherback it was over $4500!
Could not locate drawing anywhere.
Started repairing one piece at a time.

[Mike V. Florida]

Sorry there are no plans available for the wood you need.

[1930artdeco]

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Mike, I have a question for you. If Ford designed the car would the wood plans not be at the Benson Archives? Or, did Briggs and Murray develop their own plans to what Ford wanted?

Mike

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by 1930artdeco

Mike, I have a question for you. If Ford designed the car would the wood plans not be at the Benson Archives? Or, did Briggs and Murray develop their own plans to what Ford wanted?

Mike

While I do not have the answer to whether Briggs or Murray shared the drawings, I do know that not every drawing ever produced was retained due to various reasons. While there may be wood drawings who knows the actual part numbers and revision number needed for each piece? Who is prepared to spend the money to have the drawings looked up either by an individual or by the staff.

I've been around these forums and magazines for years and never have I read of a source of drawing or even a list of drawing numbers needed for each body style.

A search on this site will show the lack of drawings or numbers. Do I see a potential for another research project?

[Terry,NJ]

I went through this on my 30 Briggs T.S. And as Fiddly Bits says $4500 was more than I wanted to spend. Actually, I did spend $1800 on the top wood and the sills. I made the rest using the old wood for a pattern. Just to be authentic, I cut down a big Ash tree that was in my back yard and had it milled into planks. According to Brent Terry, The Benson Ford has, at least, some drawings. but they get $25 per PAGE to reproduce them.
Terry

[Bill Goddard]

I made everypiece of my 29 leatherback from wood parts off the car. It was nice to have the orig parts but in the end the only part that matters is the fit of the metal parts, Don't get too hung up on accuracy of the wood.

I do have a rear header that is usable plus complete front seat parts for sale. Bill G

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Bill Goddard

I made everypiece of my 29 leatherback from wood parts off the car. It was nice to have the orig parts but in the end the only part that matters is the fit of the metal parts, Don't get too hung up on accuracy of the wood.

I do have a rear header that is usable plus complete front seat parts for sale. Bill G

The only real issue with that statement is the structural integrity of the body really depends on the joint fitment and the routing. The metal is only tacked onto the wood to provide weather-tite protection. Outside of that, the thickness and placement of the wood affects how the windows fit, and how the upholstery fits. Too thick and the glass cannot be installed tightly (leaks & air noises) and not thick enough and the mouldings stick out. If the wood is too thick, the upholstery panels do not have the correct shape, and wood too thin creates an uneven surface for the upholstery to attach to. I guess I see it differently....

[Roadster62]

Brent, Are all the joints dry and free to flex or are they glued and screwed? Bob

[Terry,NJ]

Rightly or wrongly, I screwed and glued mine. About the accuracy of the wood. it's best to duplicate the size and shape as closely as possible. I shot for plus or minus .015 (1/64 th) on all surfaces. Someone on FB had an original print and it called for + or - .010. That's pretty close for wood. I checked some original pieces and on nominal sizes (1", 1 1/4", 1 1/2" etc) after 80 some years, the sizes were well within tolerances. That Ash seems not to move around very much. I used a vernier and a angle gauge. I kept it "period correct" by using slotted head wood screws. Be careful about drilling your holes and leaving enough to give the threads plenty of wood to grab.Then drill out your clearance hole for the shank of the screw. Wax your screws with a furniture wax (Not Pledge or any water based wax) such as Butcher's wax (google) This will help the screw thread it's way into the wood much easier.
Terry

[Bill Goddard]

I agree with Terry and that's the way I did mine. I just ment that you can go too far with accuracy. Of coarse it all has to fit to allow doors mouldings and up holstry to fit.

[Skibb]

Originally Posted by Terry,NJ

Rightly or wrongly, I screwed and glued mine. About the accuracy of the wood. it's best to duplicate the size and shape as closely as possible. I shot for plus or minus .015 (1/64 th) on all surfaces. Someone on FB had an original print and it called for + or - .010. That's pretty close for wood. I checked some original pieces and on nominal sizes (1", 1 1/4", 1 1/2" etc) after 80 some years, the sizes were well within tolerances. That Ash seems not to move around very much. I used a vernier and a angle gauge. I kept it "period correct" by using slotted head wood screws. Be careful about drilling your holes and leaving enough to give the threads plenty of wood to grab.Then drill out your clearance hole for the shank of the screw. Wax your screws with a furniture wax (Not Pledge or any water based wax) such as Butcher's wax (google) This will help the screw thread it's way into the wood much easier.
Terry

Terry, I have to say this does beat the Band. Cutting down your own Ash Tree and having it milled then making the pieces. My ball cap is doffed to you.

[Terry,NJ]

IT was a happy coincidence, that's all. The tree had to come down and it was about the same time. I did not sacrifice the tree just to make parts. In my old FB name, Terry, NJ you can see the log on my truck as it's going to the mill, Heacock sawmill, a few miles north of Doylestown, Pa, On rt 611. They charged me $35 to saw an approximately 2 ft Dia log into various thicknesses. I don't know how many are aware of this, but Ash is threatened by the Asiatic Emerald Borer, All my Ash trees are showing signs of stress from this latest insidious pest from China.
Terry

[Skibb]

Having installed all new wood and spent what felt like an eternity shaping it to fit, today I'm happy I followed Brent's advice to do job given the condition of my car. But Terry your job takes the cake hands down.

[fiddlybits]

Originally Posted by Terry,NJ

IT was a happy coincidence, that's all. The tree had to come down and it was about the same time. I did not sacrifice the tree just to make parts. In my old FB name, Terry, NJ you can see the log on my truck as it's going to the mill, Heacock sawmill, a few miles north of Doylestown, Pa, On rt 611. They charged me $35 to saw an approximately 2 ft Dia log into various thicknesses. I don't know how many are aware of this, but Ash is threatened by the Asiatic Emerald Borer, All my Ash trees are showing signs of stress from this latest insidious pest from China.
Terry

I looked around for an ash tree or even an inexpensive source for ash and came up empty. (I could pay $$$ but that was what I was trying to avoid.)

My answer came when I saw an all plastic park bench........

[Terry,NJ]

I cut up three logs from that tree and I sell a thick plank (over 1 1/2 " thick) X8 - 10 ft for $30 and a thin one (Under 1 1/2") for $25. But before you pay shipping on that, Go look in the phone book for sawmills. Someone will have some Ash laying around.
Terry

[Tom Wesenberg]

The local threshing club has a sawmill and will cut logs for people. They keep half the wood for the service.

[bart78]

I don't know where you are at. But my family's business all ways has tons of ash. We make windmill sucker rod.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by fiddlybits

I looked around for an ash tree or even an inexpensive source for ash and came up empty. (I could pay $$$ but that was what I was trying to avoid.)

My answer came when I saw an all plastic park bench........

I am in a same dilemma in that I had been buying air-dried Ash at a local sawmill, --usually 500 bd. ft. at a time, but this last time I purchased all they had and got very little 8/4 stuff in the lot. Maple is price prohibitive here, and so I really do not know what wood I am going to substitute.

Below are some pix showing what Ford engineers said to use, and while I am not real keen on using Oak, I am open to suggestions/thoughts...

[1930artdeco]

Ok here is a question for people who have opened up original cars. I see that more than one wood is allowed. Did they substitute different wood pieces while on the line if they ran out? I.e. mismatching wood pieces in a door say maple and birch?

Mike

[bart78]

Look at Keruing. We use it all so for sucker rod. It's a good weather resistant wood.

[bart78]

Keruing is used to floor semi trailers most o the time. It gets real hard.

[Terry,NJ]

For small flat pieces, IU see nothing wrong with using pallet wood. I wouldn't use Oak though. Most car builders stayed away from Oak or used it sparingly. Even today, Morgan still uses Ash. Henry Laminated some pieces, so I assume this is acceptable.
Terry

Originally Posted by fiddlybits

I looked around for an ash tree or even an inexpensive source for ash and came up empty. (I could pay $$$ but that was what I was trying to avoid.)

My answer came when I saw an all plastic park bench........

[bart78]

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Where is the best place to get patterns for all makes of model a's? I could probably make all the parts from our scrap ash. If not there are allways whole boards that we can't use. To make a whole rod. We usually end up selling it for trailer flooring. For a dollar a board foot to get it off the lot.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Terry,NJ

For small flat pieces, IU see nothing wrong with using pallet wood. I wouldn't use Oak though. Most car builders stayed away from Oak or used it sparingly. Even today, Morgan still uses Ash. Henry Laminated some pieces, so I assume this is acceptable.
Terry

If that is true, why do you suppose Ford authorized it for use in his bodies?

Personally I have been lead to believe oak has an acid that is rough on adjoining sheetmetal however maybe it is OK?.

[Terry,NJ]

I don't know the reason. HF may have authorized it, but seldom used it. I have seen many discussions about the wood in model A s, yet I've never seen any references to Oak actually being present in the car. I myself, have some Walnut in the doors. British builders always stayed away from Oak, but I don't know why. Perhaps it's because Oak has a nasty habit of splintering (shivering) into hundreds of little daggers in an accident. I'm told that in the days of Oak sailing ships, there was a loss of gun crews due to this problem. It was known as shivering the timbers. I'm sorry, this is my best answer and I know it's not the answer you want.
Terry

[bart78]

Oak probably was not used because it does not bend well even when steam is used. I know a guy that makes bows. And he said oak is not good to use. Because it won't bend right. And it splinters.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by bart78

Oak probably was not used because it does not bend well even when steam is used. I know a guy that makes bows. And he said oak is not good to use. Because it won't bend right. And it splinters.

That is interesting, and I don't know what to say about that since most of the brass-era automobiles all used steam bent oak bows, as did the Deluxe Roadster. It sure seems like if oak was not the best, they would have found something different to use back then!! I have always been told Maple was the worst to use but Red & White Oak were the best for steam bending. Find out something new every day.

[bart78]

He uses mostly ash. And even some red cedar.
He said oak is like a bomb. If I oak bow breaks it splinters real bad. He gets wood from us some. Our main problem with ash now. Is most mills don't have enough logs long enough for what we need. All our ash comes out of Indiana. If Henry owned his own forest? He could have used ash. Because it matures faster than oak.