05-07-2024, 02:31 PM | #1 |
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Oil leak
Completely rebuilt 1940 flathead, bored 20 thousand over a 239 cubic inch. Egge four ring pistons, Max 1 cam, Edelbrock slingshot with two 97's. Engine runs really strong and sounds fantastic. Has about 50 break in miles, and has started leaking oil out of the hole in the flywheel pan. I figured oil could only come from the slinger, the oil pump to cam cover, or the plug from the oil line in the block, so eliminated the oil pump to cam cover and the plug by putting a shop vac to the road draft tube, which stopped the oil flow immediately. My Dilemma is how to stop this leak without pulling the engine and changing over to a newer type rope seal. Vacuum pump, or PCV? Could it be blow by from the rings not fully seated yet?
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05-07-2024, 02:41 PM | #2 | |
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Re: Oil leak
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05-07-2024, 05:30 PM | #3 |
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Re: Oil leak
Thanks Pete, much nicer to see, hope some has some ideas.
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05-07-2024, 07:51 PM | #4 |
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Re: Oil leak
I believe in order to change to the newer type seal, the crankshaft has to be replaced any/or modified? I'm thinking that the 'slinger' cannot be used with a rope type seal? I believe it can be ground off . . . but obviously that is taking the whole engine apart. I don't know of an easy solution . . . but I also am not sure exactly what is causing the issue?
What oil pump is in the engine - how much PSI? |
05-07-2024, 10:10 PM | #5 |
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Re: Oil leak
Silly question, but does it only leak when running? I ask because the pan's pretty ugly and might have a crack at the divider wall at the bottom rear.
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05-08-2024, 07:37 AM | #6 |
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Re: Oil leak
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05-08-2024, 09:25 AM | #7 |
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Re: Oil leak
The oil only runs when the engine is running. I don't think the cover over the oil pump to cam gear is a contributor sense the flow stops when I add a vacuum to the road draft tube. If that was the source of the oil it would not be affected by vacuum. I will check on the oil pump that was installed and let you know. Pressure reads about 30 at idle and goes to 50 at higher rpm.
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05-08-2024, 06:12 PM | #8 |
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Re: Oil leak
The oil pump is a standard flathead pump from Melling, purchased at Speedway.
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05-08-2024, 07:56 PM | #9 |
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Re: Oil leak
For that much oil to be getting there, methinks the cork gasket between the
"bell housing" and the oil pan proper has been installed incorrectly.
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05-08-2024, 09:23 PM | #10 |
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Re: Oil leak
Cube--only leaks there when the car is moving and the oil runs up rear of pan-you can ask me how I know about this!
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05-09-2024, 03:53 PM | #11 |
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Re: Oil leak
Your issue may be the Speedway pump . . . which is most likely a clone of the 49-53 pump. Due to its helical teeth, it puts out more volume than the original pump and maybe the volume is overcoming the ability of the stock slinger system to handle the oil that naturally comes out the backside of the rear main. Did your rear main cap have the little "pipe" installed that helps oil drain from the slinger?
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05-09-2024, 04:37 PM | #12 |
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Re: Oil leak
How full is the oil, try lowering it to just above add
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05-09-2024, 04:53 PM | #13 |
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Re: Oil leak
Am I looking at this incorrectly? It appears to me the oil is coming out of the hole in the pan where the cotter pin should be. Yes?
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05-09-2024, 06:16 PM | #14 |
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Re: Oil leak
Kube, the oil is coming out of the hole in the in the flywheel cover. Where the cotter pin would be. I do have the pipe coming out of the rear main cap, although I have read that Ford stopped installing those at some point. I have made a diaper of sorts to allow driving it on a limited basis. I will put a few miles on it and see what happens. Can't hurt at this point.
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05-09-2024, 07:47 PM | #15 | |
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Re: Oil leak
Quote:
High volume pump? I suppose that could be the cause but given the fact a zillion have been installed without this issue leads me elsewhere. Just a thought... are you 100% certain the plugs were installed at the rear of the block??? I have repaired freshly rebuilt engines for clients wherein the rebuilder did not install these. However, those engines were not drivable as the oil was coming out way too quickly. So, I'm back to that cork seal...
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"I can explain it for you. However, I can't understand it for you". Last edited by Kube; 05-09-2024 at 08:40 PM. |
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05-10-2024, 07:34 AM | #16 |
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Re: Oil leak
Yeah - in my mind you'll need to pull the pan and maybe see if that cork seal is an issue - that would be by far the easiest fix. If it is related to the crank and main bearings . . . things get a lot more complex and expensive.
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05-10-2024, 08:34 AM | #17 |
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Re: Oil leak
I agree that the pan should come off sooner rather than later. This bad of a leak and the clutch will soon become contaminated and need replacing as well.
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05-10-2024, 08:50 AM | #18 |
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Re: Oil leak
Third generation shows they have rebuilt original style oil pumps, I could drop the pan, check the cork seal at the back for a cause, replace the pump and install all new gaskets. That is about as far as I can go with this with the engine still installed.
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05-10-2024, 03:09 PM | #19 |
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Re: Oil leak
That sounds like a good "next steps" plan to me. If that doesn't work out, then you'll have to pull the engine and get into it deeper.
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05-10-2024, 08:30 PM | #20 |
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Re: Oil leak
Would you keep the pipe on the rear main cap, or delete it? The flywheel is the deep dished type so the pressure plate and disc are inside a little bit, maybe some protection from oil.
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05-11-2024, 08:45 AM | #21 |
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Re: Oil leak
I'd keep the pipe.
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05-11-2024, 09:02 AM | #22 |
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Re: Oil leak
I'm with Kube - it surely won't hurt the situation. Another potential is for there to be an issue on the rear cover that bolts to the block behind the flywheel -- it has a thin gasket and potentially there could be a leak in this area. Other than the oil galley plug (underneath it) and this cover, the only other place oil could be coming from is the rear main.
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05-11-2024, 12:34 PM | #23 |
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Re: Oil leak
Bored&Stroked, I watched the leak with the engine running, and applied a shop vacuum suction close to the road draft tube, it stopped the oil flow. It seems if the oil was from a pressure source, such as the plug or plate over the pump to cam gear the vacuum would have no effect, but it completely stops the flow. I hope to drop the pan and find something obvious. We'll see.
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05-11-2024, 02:06 PM | #24 |
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Re: Oil leak
Road draft tube?
Oh, by the way, be certain the breather at the front of the pan is "open". The correct pan gasket goes around this area.
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05-11-2024, 03:41 PM | #25 | |
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Re: Oil leak
Quote:
From page #61 through #66 of the Techno Source ... below "Rear Crankshaft Sealing From 1932 to sometime in 1941, Ford used a non-contacting crankshaft thin flange that whipped oil into block and rear main bearing pot metal channels to prevent oil escaping. However,since there was no crankshaft to material seal, i.e., rope seals; leakage could occur due to crankcase pressure or just pour out if the engine was tilted to the back such as parking uphill" Glenn
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Archives of historical but relevant older articles: ------------- Hover mouse over the links below and click! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~--------------- Rumble Seat's Notes Techno-Source for the 1932 thru 1953 Flathead Ford Last edited by glennpm; 05-11-2024 at 03:48 PM. |
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05-11-2024, 04:03 PM | #26 | |
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Re: Oil leak
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05-15-2024, 02:46 PM | #27 |
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Re: Oil leak
An update, I made a pan "diaper" to catch the oil and drove it under varying conditions for 20 minutes. In that time it pumped out over a quart of oil. Next I started to remove the oil pan, but can't quite get it out, hangs up on front crossmember, and can't get the front any higher. I did notice that the pan gasket behind the oil pump could be allowing oil out. I don't recall the oil pump to block having a seperate gasket, should it? Could pressure oil leak out there and be the culprit? Pulling engine next, and that is a PITA
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05-15-2024, 02:51 PM | #28 |
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Re: Oil leak
Pulling the engine won't be as much trouble as you think. I had the engine, transmission and rear end out of my '37 tudor in about 6 hours. I was working by myself until I needed a hand for a few minutes with the engine hoist.
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05-15-2024, 02:56 PM | #29 |
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Re: Oil leak
You may be able to pull the pan by rotating the motor. Either #1 or#5 rod bearing caps may be causing the hangup.
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Archives of historical but relevant older articles: ------------- Hover mouse over the links below and click! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~--------------- Rumble Seat's Notes Techno-Source for the 1932 thru 1953 Flathead Ford Last edited by glennpm; 05-15-2024 at 03:37 PM. |
05-15-2024, 03:06 PM | #30 | |
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Re: Oil leak
Quote:
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05-16-2024, 05:14 PM | #31 |
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Re: Oil leak
Just an update, I pulled the engine, pulled off the pan, and have found no smoking gun. I still have the flywheel to pull off to check the cam to oil pump cover. The pan to block and around the cork seal at rear bearing all looked really good. I will keep trying to solve this leak situation.
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05-16-2024, 07:17 PM | #32 |
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Re: Oil leak
Is your dipstick correct with the correct measured amount of oil ? Just a possibility?
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05-16-2024, 07:33 PM | #33 |
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Re: Oil leak
What oil pump do you have in there ? With the engines with a slinger at the rear I like a stock pump and a rather tight clearance on the rear main crankshaft journal.
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05-17-2024, 08:55 AM | #34 |
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Re: Oil leak
Oil dip stick is correct, and I only use 4 quarts of oil at each change. I installed the "standard flathead pump by Melling" sold by Speedway. I can probably check the rear clearance with plastigauge.
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05-18-2024, 09:12 AM | #35 |
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Re: Oil leak
I have not found the issue yet but have eliminated some things. The oil leak is not from the cam to oil pump cover or the plug in the end of the oil passage in the block. Using compressed air I can get oil to bubble around the pump at the block, and hear it at the timing gear going past the flat spot on the pressure valve. At this point it seems to be either too much oil pressure, too much clearance on rear main bearing, or too much blow by from rings not having completely seated. I will keep digging.
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05-18-2024, 10:03 AM | #36 | |
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Re: Oil leak
Quote:
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The only thing nice about being imperfect is the joy it brings to others.... "Silver rings, your butt! Them's washers!" "We shot our way out of that town for a dollar's worth of steel holes!" - from 'The Wild Bunch' - 1969 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NReUd2_0u0 |
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05-18-2024, 10:41 AM | #37 |
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Re: Oil leak
You could try a stock lower-pressure pump - as it currently appears to have the later 49-53 pump - which will put out more volume and pressure than stock.
While I hate to mention an alternative direction, but here goes. You already have the engine out of the car, so why not think about pulling the crankshaft, having the slinger ground off and switching over to the later rope-type seal plates? You'll only have a few more hours of work to do this . . . and it beats putting it all back together (even with a new pump) - only to see the same problem once again. Or just put a later crankshaft in it . . . |
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