Spark Question

[txmike]

I am sure a lot of you will go - here we go again but I can't find specifically what my problem is so here we go... no spark....

1929 Coupe - 6 volt positive ground...

Purchase new:
Ignition switch
coil
Ignition cable
"Modern upper distributor plate with modern points and condenser"

installed all - no spark

I have check ignition switch, coil (positive and negative) and distributor plate and all show to have power.

I checked the wire coming out the coil and i show now power (not sure i should) and I also checked the coil wire coming out of the distributor and no power (no sire it should show any)

no be be honest when I put the new distributor plate in i DID NOT reset my timing pin etc.....

Is that the problem related to no spark?

[chrs1961815]

Your timing has to be off a fair amount to not even spark. But if you have no power from the coil to the cap, timing may not be your issue. I wouls tske the wire out of the cap and check for spark while turning the engine over and holding the wire end near a head nut.

[Patrick L.]

1. Set points to .022"
2. Set timing [ use pin]
3. Check for 6v at open point arm
4. 0v at closed point arm
5. Place secondary coil wire near 1/4" from good ground
6. Open/close repeatedly point arm [ key on] and look for spark

Let us know results

[txmike]

ok back soon

[txmike]

oh and when i checked for spark from coil wire to head nut - nothing

I will check the items Patrick mentions and be back

[Patrick L.]

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There should be battery voltage at terminal box connections, primary coil connections.

1.5 ohms across coil primaries.

The primary lead could be bad or screwed into the distributor too far causing it to ground. The switch could also be bad but is easily checked.

Coil should be connected to points the same as the battery. If + grd battery, + on coil should go to points. [ but if different it'll still run]

[txmike]

ok, sorry to sound ignorant but does the timing pin slip in all the way when it hits the slot?
I have felt some movement on the pint but it will not go in and I thought in the past it did.

Cranking this thing is a pain (i am being nice) how many turns does it take to get it aligned?

[Jim/GA]

Originally Posted by txmike

ok, sorry to sound ignorant but does the timing pin slip in all the way when it hits the slot?
I have felt some movement on the pint but it will not go in and I thought in the past it did.

Cranking this thing is a pain (i am being nice) how many turns does it take to get it aligned?

No. It is a very subtle dimple that the pin drops down into. Very easy to miss.

If you miss the dimple during one pass, the engine crankshaft needs to make 2 full turns to get back to where you were. 1-3/4 turns will get you "approaching" the dimple. It is at this point you need to slow down the cranking.

Remove spark plug #1. This makes it easier to crank that piston up to the top as the dimple approaches. Go slow that last 1/4 turn.

HTH.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

It only moves in a small amount - the timing pin is rounded and the timing gear is only slightly dimpled. For a better feel, file the pin to more of a point, or use a Phillips screwdriver. Remove the spark plugs and the motor will turn much easier, you will not be fighting the motor/piston compression. It takes 2 crank revolutions to hit TDC on all 4 cylinders.

To Get close to TDC Cylinder 1 is to remove the distributor top and locate the rotor as in the picture. then use the timing pin.

Another way is to rotate the motor with your thumb on the #1 spark plug hole till the compression starts to force past your thumb, put a stick or pencil in the plug hole and crank it till the pencil is at its highest point, then use the timing pin for final adjustment for TDC.


.

[Purdy Swoft]

It can be difficult finding the timing dimple with the timing pin when having to fight compression !!! Remove all of the spark plugs and try again .

[Patrick L.]

Yep, what the fellas said.
1. Remove all sparklers
2. Try to insert pin while turning engine over. As the rotor approaches #1 in the cap [CCW] go slowly and the round end of the pin will slip slightly into the dimple is the gear. Thats TDC.
3. Now you're ready to set the dist. cam position. [ points already to .022" new, .020" used]
4. Any extra rotation CCW to open the points will create the spark you're looking for. I like a continuity meter for that. But with experience the ole eyeball works fine.

[txmike]

ok tried all that and still no spark
ugh

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Ignition on, points open, should have battery voltage on the points arm. Points closed should be 0 Volts. If timed correctly this means your ignition primary circuit should fuction (switch, wiring, coil ).



Ignition off, then take a lead off a spark plug and space the lead about 1/8 inch from the plug terminal, ignition on, use the starter rod in the mmotor bay to engage the starter and you should see a spark across the lead to plug gap.

[Patrick L.]

OK. Tell us what you have. Where does the voltage stop ? Are you getting 6v at the point arm when open ? Do you lose that voltage when the point arm closes ?

If that doesn't happen then the problem is from the supply voltage to the terminal box, to the coil, to the switch, to the distributor.

Have you checked the condenser ? have you tried another condenser ? Condensers today are mostly junk [ as I mentioned I just went thru 5 new 'short-proof' ones before I got a good one]

Have the sparklers gotten wet ? [ fuel fouled]

[Licensed to kill]

My car had no spark this spring after being stored for two years. On the advice from Jacksonhill, I changed out the wire that goes from the ignition switch to the coil and it fired right up. I have NO idea why they worked as the wire I removed LOOKED like brand new but it did and from Jacksonhill's comments, it seems to be not all that uncommon of a problem. I made up a spare wire and carry it under the seat

[eagle]

Don't start replacing anything until you identify where the problem is. Use a voltmeter on the point arm. Should be battery voltage when open, 0V when closed. This is with the ignition switch ON. Check on it and get back to us.

[txmike]

OK. Tell us what you have. Where does the voltage stop ? Are you getting 6v at the point arm when open ? Do you lose that voltage when the point arm closes ?

YES 6v open, lost when it close

If that doesn't happen then the problem is from the supply voltage to the terminal box, to the coil, to the switch, to the distributor.

Have you checked the condenser ? have you tried another condenser ? Condensers today are mostly junk [ as I mentioned I just went thru 5 new 'short-proof' ones before I got a good one]

New

Have the sparklers gotten wet ? [ fuel fouled]

nope

[Afordman31]

Use a jumper wire and jump the back of the amp meter!

[Patrick L.]

OK. Take the coil secondary high tension lead out of the cap and place it 1/4" from a good ground. Remove distributor cap so you have access to points. Have points closed and put a piece of paper between the contacts. Turn on key. Take your finger or something plastic/wooden and open points. Remove piece of paper. Close and open points several times and there should be a good spark from the wire to the ground every time.

Let us know what happens.

If there is no spark then its either a bad coil, condenser or coil wire.

If there is a spark then the problem should be a bad cap, rotor or sparklers. Another test is to have all sparklers out and connect one and have its ground electrode to a good ground. [big jumper wire works] Spin engine over with key on and there should be a spark. If not its one of those items.

[txmike]

ok guys - back from vacation. New Coil and new coil wire came in
I have checked all connections, all have voltage. Checked with a light and ohm meter

i get power to lower and upper plate - but the problem is it does not appear to be going to the points (Open or closed)

This is a new set of points etc; modern version with condenser up top, from NuRex

so what could the problem be. The lower plate looks fine, no corrosion etc

[txmike]

oh and also checked amp meter and it looks ok too but have not tries to jumper wire it

I have been told to do that but can someone walk me thru the process (don't laugh) as I am not a electrical guy

[Jim/GA]

Originally Posted by txmike

ok guys - back from vacation. New Coil and new coil wire came in
I have checked all connections, all have voltage. Checked with a light and ohm meter

i get power to lower and upper plate - but the problem is it does not appear to be going to the points (Open or closed)

This is a new set of points etc; modern version with condenser up top, from NuRex

so what could the problem be. The lower plate looks fine, no corrosion etc

When checking for voltage at the points, be sure to insert a non-conductive material (a thin piece of cardboard) between the points. Then voltage will be read on the movable arm, but not on the fixed point side.

Do you have a wire between lower plate and points on upper plate?

[100IH]

You might be better off with a simple test light- the clear plastic handle lights up when voltage goes through by way of the single wire and the "ice pick" probe. Visualization is everything. Usually works better because no numbers to evaluate - is it hot or not. Save the VOM for later. $cheap tool often under $10.00. i F BOTH TERMINALS ARE HOT ON THE AMP METER CURRENT IS PASSING THROUGH. It is possible to have an intermittent issue so wiggle it to see if the light goes on -off--on. This is called a wiggle test. it is real and worthwhile. When something passes the test - move on knowing that things are fine to that test point. Move on to the next item in the series circuit, not to the end to see of the problem went away. They rarely just go away. They might go to ground though, to make a short circuit; not getting to the end of the road, the points. The problem might also be open (a gap) where current stops flowing. The points are opening and closing - one point hot while open and then flowing to ground when closed while the coil gets a charge out of all of the flow and the condenser does too. Thinking without terms that mean something to you is useless. Read this over and over until you know what and why you are doing and in meaningful terms. The ghost of Henry Ford is looking over your shoulder, He might ask you to explain it to him. The first thing to do is draw him a wiring diagram.

[Patrick L.]

Post #17 states there is power to open point arm. Then 0 v when closed. Thats how it should be. What happened ?

Do you have power to the points without attaching that wire to anything ? If so it seems like that wire is being grounded when attached. That can happen if not careful.

[wmws]

[QUOTE=txmike;1913244]ok i get power to lower and upper plate - but the problem is it does not appear to be going to the points (Open or closed)



With the points open you should not have power to either plate. With the points closed the juice is going to ground through the stationary point and the upper plate. You possibly have the coil wire screwed too far into the distributor. Only screw it in about three turns.

[txmike]

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hi guys]
Back again. Sorry for intermittent posts but my battery died and I had to get a replacement. Luckily for me it was under warranty. Any way - a lot of info in the posts above and I really appreciate the help. Let me recap where I am on this thing...

1) Unscrewed cable/coil wire from the distributor - then screwed it in 3 turns
2) Using a test light and a meter on all connection
3) Power at ignition switch, terminal box, coil, and lower plate
4) Took a piece of card board, stuck it between the points - no light on test light and no reading on meter
5) This a brand new Nu-Rex set up so I doubt the condenser is bad

So what do i do from here? Read Les's manuals several times

Thanks

[Patrick L.]

Sounds like there is a problem between the lower plate and points. Connector contacting [grounding] the housing is kinda common.

[txmike]

ok and where do i look for that?

[shew01]

Originally Posted by txmike

ok and where do i look for that?

There is a wire that tends to give problems.

https://www.brattons.com/generator-d...e-pigtail.html

Here is a link to a distributor diagram.

https://www.brattons.com/assemblies/...-assembly.html


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[Patrick L.]

#17 states you had voltage to the open point arm. Now you don't. Sounds like one of the connectors is now grounding. Look and move the one giving the trouble. Or the wire may be bad/worn and grounding.

[wmws]

I think you can follow the path of electricity up through the distributor. The problem for someone new to model A's is seeing where that path is insulated from the body of the distributor. Those insulated places are important so the elec. doesn't go to ground at the wrong place. The only place it should go to ground is at the stationary part of the points. Study the distributor diagram in the Bratton's catalog on post 29 and you will figure it out.

[txmike]

ok pictures are worth a 1000 words - so they say so look at these and comment please

[rocket1]

TXMIKE might be in Texas,If all on the barn would put their location in there might be some one near bye that could help them,just a suggestion.

[Bob C]

There have been problems with those wireless plates. The contacts get dirty
and they quit working. Go with the wired plates.

[Patrick L.]

I didn't know/realize it was a wireless plate. As said they are known to be problematic. I was thinking there was a grounding issue, with that plate there may well be an open issue. I don't have a problem with the modern type upper plate as long as its a wired unit. Wire it or switch to original points.

[wmws]

The wireless plate should work although many have reported problems with them. I don't see the connector for the wireless plate in any of the pictures.

[txmike]

ok - will update location and order parts
back soon and

THANKS

[goodcar]

Suggest you try getting in touch with a Model A club in your area. Sounds like you could use some local hands on help with this problem.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

I had the same type plates as those in the pictures, also had issues. One issue was an occasionally miss under low RPM/high load, Ex: going up a hill from a stop. Had other strange issues at random.



The original design has a wire to make connection from the bottom plate to the top plate, instead of the brass colored shoe/plate making the connection. The wireless plates were developed to replace the wire since the wire after a long time and a lot of flexing becomes brittle and can break. However the wireless connection moves every time you change the Retard Lever and also is purely pressure/mechanical in nature and can be a poor connection for the low primary coil points current/voltage.


For trouble shooting or if being frugal, add a wire between the 2 plates across where the wireless connection is.



Some have had issues, others have had no issues.

[txmike]

thanks - parts came in today. I will update everyone

Note I am a member in two Model A Clubs

When I asked for help pre-COVID lots of promises to help but no one ever showed.

Now that COVID is everywhere I have not asked but may do so. I also know a guy I can pay to come over but was trying to avoid that as he is pricey

[txmike]

ok here is one for you

can i use the lower plate with ground wire with the new "modern" upper plate?

[Jim/GA]

Originally Posted by txmike

ok here is one for you

can i use the lower plate with ground wire with the new "modern" upper plate?

Yes.

[txmike]

ok another dumb question. Ground wire go to upper plate or the distributor housing

[Jim/GA]

Originally Posted by txmike

ok another dumb question. Ground wire go to upper plate or the distributor housing

It's not really a "ground wire".

The wire from the lower plate connects back to the wire that goes up to the ignition switch, which then goes to the coil + post (in Henry's original wiring scheme -- not the "modified wiring scheme" that many use).

This wire CANNOT touch a ground anywhere or the engine will not run (you won't get a spark).

This wire goes up and connects to the little nut connector on the side of the modern points, the same place where the condenser connects to.



When connecting to the points, it is critical that this wire end NOT touch the upper plate itself or the side of the distributor housing. Those are grounds and they will make the engine not run (you won't get a spark).

The points themselves, and only the points, provide the ground to this wire when they close, and take the ground away when they open.

Hope this helps.

[SDJason]

To add to what Jim said above - please see the attached picture.

It's the clearest most understandable drawing of the ignition system I've seen; I can't take credit for it - I believe I got it from a previous post on this forum - if someone knows who originated it, please give credit!

[txmike]

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I wanted to provide everyone a update - but first say thanks to all who have offered advice and help. To be brief; part of the problem was ME not knowing what I was doing. Not that you guys did not advise me correctly. I received my parts and installed them and still nothing.

I went to a guy who works on A's and and is usually very busy. So busy I cannot get him to help me. I offered to bring it to his shop or he could come to my garage. He came over and after about 20 mins it was running.

Again - 'user error' on install. He did out the one in with a ground wire as he too stated he did not like the modern lower plate.

Overall - put about 10 miles on it this week end. Shaking the bugs out and now can enjoy.

My dad and I started on this when i was in high school. Now I am 62 and he gave it to me before he passed but it was a body off frame etc. After many hours and $ I can now enjoy it and will always come here for any help.

many thanks again. God Bless and stay SAFE!

[wmarcy528]

What did he do to fix it besides getting rid of the modern plate? I’m dealing with a similar issue.


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