Gen charging Q

[hardtimes]

I'll try to picture the device that's on top of my generator.
If it shows, I'd like to know if anyone has seen such and how is it adjusted ?
My amp gauage shows negative, until I rev to an unpleasant rpm, then it will show charge. In your opinion, does this 'regulator' thingy need changed out or
what to get the generator charge to more output ??

The gen has a THIRD brush. I've moved it 2 to 3" back/forth slowly..no change ?

no pic.....?
THANKS FOR INPUT...
Ok guys, some egg head showed me what I was doing to upset machine and no pic....
I do not think that I infformed you correctly, in that this is now a 12V system from original..if that makes you change your advice.
From pic, do you recognize silver device / cutout ? Maybe junk needs changed ??

[flatheadmurre]

The third brush only sets the output...the cutout on top is what needs adjusting/replacing in this case.
You can convert it to using a diode instead of the relay that´s in there now and there will be no need for maintenance in the future.

[ford38v8]

The link below to Fun Projects is the diode that flatheadmurre advised.
www.funprojects.com
Electronic Voltage Regulator contained within a Ford Script Cutout

[Alaska Jim]

be sure to check that the belt tension is correct and that the belt is not slipping, if it is this could be the problem

[Tinker]

If you have a "knub" cyclinder on the top of your gen. It's a cutout (as murre said) not a regulator. Off/on.


https://www.amazon.com/AQP-Tractor-G.../dp/B0714F7K44


https://www.completetractor.com/new-...9n-b0nn10505a/


ford38v8 link is good too.


A diode is used to limit current flow in one direction.
Main functions. The most common function of a diode is to allow an electric current to pass in one direction (called the diode's forward direction), while blocking it in the opposite direction (the reverse direction). As such, the diode can be viewed as an electronic version of a check valve.



.

[Kurt in NJ]

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Most likely it is a normal cutout, just a switch, then there are modifications to cutouts, --a diode cutout works the same as original cutout, these can be jumped out to check , then there is "fun projects regulator---those get burned out easily by trying to jump them out

from your description I think if normal/diode cutout that is working and you has a generator problem, you could take the "cutout" off, connect direct to generator, start car, check if charging---shut off, take wire back off generator

another test you can do that will give some idea of generator function is to take the belt off, then connect the wire direct to generator post, the generator should run as a motor

running a 3 brush generator not connected to a battery WILL cause overvoltage at the generator(and anything still connected to it, and cause it to burn up, it will make over 40 volts

take the cover band off and look at the inside across from where the wires are soldered to the commutator for silver blobs (solder melted off the commutator---thrown solder),

if you have a volt meter check the voltage at both sides of the cutout---stopped, at idle,and at higher engine speeds---should have no voltage at generator post not running, at idle there should be some voltage at generator post depending on idle speed (3-6V), the voltage should come up with engine speed to match the voltage at the other side of a normal cutout, with a diode cutout it should show a 0.5 volt difference, higher at generator post

[rotorwrench]

The old original type cut out switch has the can spot welded to the base in a couple of spots that can be seen if you pull it off the generator and turn it upside down. A person can carefully grind away the spot welds and take the cover off to see what's in there. Sometimes they just need the points cleaned.

The cut out switch senses a current/voltage generated after the engine is fired up. The generator pole shoes are magnetized by polarization procedure and the residual magnetism is enough to generate enough current to close that cut out switch and bring the generator on line. The battery is what sets the system voltage in a 3-brush generator system so it's very important to have good connections and correct polarity with the battery prior to starting the engine.

The modern replacements are just a relatively high amperage rated diode that only lets current go one way so the generator won't motor when you shut the engine down. The Fun Projects unit that folks talk about has a diode but it also has a current controller so that the unit will only put out current when it's needed for battery recharge or operation of the headlamps. The charge rate will drop down to little or nothing when the battery is completely recharged during running with no lights on. A normal three brush generator set up generates at a current rate that the brush is adjusted to all the time whether it needs it or not. The Fun Projects unit allows it to take a rest break when fully charged. It's a very simple form of regulator but they can easily be damaged by trying to jump start or connecting them the wrong way.

[fourfords]

The cut-out is an on/off switch to charge the generator. That's all. The rate of charge is adjusted in the generator itself. To increase the rate, gently tap the third brush DOWN. To decrease the rate, gently tap it up. (Up is down, down is up)

What I do is turn on the lights in the vehicle and observe the amp meter:
1) I start the car and then turn all the lights on.
2) Car should be at a high idle.
3) Observe Amp Meter. Meter should read at ZERO. If not, turn off the car, remove the metal band on the generator and make any correction by gently taping the third brush up or down to send the correct voltage of ZERO to the car.
4) Observe the Amp Meter. Verify at ZERO.
5) Turn off the lights and observe the charge rate with car running at high idle. It should read around 7-9 Volts with lights off.
6) Replace band and Happy Motoring.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by fourfords

The cut-out is an on/off switch to charge the generator. That's all. The rate of charge is adjusted in the generator itself. To increase the rate, gently tap the third brush DOWN. To decrease the rate, gently tap it up. (Up is down, down is up)

What I do is turn on the lights in the vehicle and observe the amp meter:
1) I start the car and then turn all the lights on.
2) Car should be at a high idle.
3) Observe Amp Meter. Meter should read at ZERO. If not, turn off the car, remove the metal band on the generator and make any correction by gently taping the third brush up or down to send the correct voltage of ZERO to the car.
4) Observe the Amp Meter. Verify at ZERO.
5) Turn off the lights and observe the charge rate with car running at high idle. It should read around 7-9 Volts with lights off.
6) Replace band and Happy Motoring.

You guys are really helpful and therefor, this will be figured out !
I just added pic , maybe viewing the 'CUTOUT' will make opinion change ?

Now I'll give your third brush change method a whirl. When I changed 3rd brush , I had engine running and a bud watching as I changed...with no results. I'm pretty much all thumbs with auto elect....

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

You guys are really helpful and therefor, this will be figured out ! I just added pic , maybe viewing the 'CUTOUT' will make opinion change ?
Now I'll give your third brush change method a whirl. When I changed 3rd brush , I had engine running and a bud watching as I changed...with no results. I'm pretty much all thumbs with auto elect....

[flatheadmurre]

That´s an after market diode you got on there.
Run the engine at some rpm put a jumper cable between the 2 posts on the diode if you get charge reading diode is bad.
Otherwise you probably have a field or armature issue...the 3 brush can´t put out much current when people set them to high they fry.

[petehoovie]

I'm not familiar with the cutout you have. You now say that yours is a 12 volt system. ("I do not think that I informed you correctly, in that this is now a 12V system from original..if that makes you change your advice.") I don't think your 3 brush generator is compatible with a 12 volt system/battery....

8040-6159 *NEW* Universal Generator Cut Out 6V, 12V, 24V | Smith Co Electric
Brand New High Quality Universal Solid State Replacement Generator Cut Out - No Adjustments



This is the more common type of cutout

[Tinker]

Solid state electronics can be great or problematic. A old cutout rarely goes bad. My opinion. Cheap also.


Circuit boards preform best at 70 degrees.


ford38v8 link is proven and been around for a while. I haven't heard any bad reviews anyway.

[flatheadmurre]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Solid state electronics can be great or problematic. A old cutout rarely goes bad. My opinion. Cheap also.


Circuit boards preform best at 70 degrees.


ford38v8 link is proven and been around for a while. I haven't heard any bad reviews anyway.

The cutout is a relay so it will only last for so many opening/closing...then it will need maintenance or replacing.
If you can live with the looks of that diode they work fine if not shorted or abused.
Or you can convert your original cutout by installing a $5 diode in it.

[Tinker]

A starter solenoid is basically a relay. (magnet coil) Rarely goes bad. Or I'm wrong. asking.

[flatheadmurre]

Originally Posted by Tinker

A starter solenoid is basically a relay. (magnet coil) Rarely goes bad. Or I'm wrong. asking.

They can take so many startings and then the contacts are burnt out.
But it´s only once for every drive you use the solenoid to start your engine.
Every time you go down below charging rev the cutout will open and when you step on it again they close...so they see a lot more cycles...
Anything mechanical will need maintenance...a relay has a specification on how many cycles it is designed to do without issues.

[Tinker]

Thanks Murre. I appreciate it!


I'm guessing nobody is making replacement parts.


Thanks again guys.

[Terry,OH]

Your diode type cut out has to be connected properly to work. Is your battery connected + to ground, if so turn the diode around and reconnect. Right now you have it connected battery - to ground.

[flatheadmurre]

Originally Posted by Terry,OH

Your diode type cut out has to be connected properly to work. Is your battery connected + to ground, if so turn the diode around and reconnect. Right now you have it connected battery - to ground.

That´s a to simple solution
Good someone has sharp eyes !
I can´t tell from the pics even with my reading glasses...

[uncle buck]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

The link below to Fun Projects is the diode that flatheadmurre advised.
www.funprojects.com
Electronic Voltage Regulator contained within a Ford Script Cutout

Lots of great info here and Yes I see his car is converted to 12v. For those of us that are still 6v ,the only problem is the 6V pos ground have been on backorder every time I have checked over the last couple years

[Bob C]

The cutout on Hardtimes generator looks like it says Pos Grd so if you are
running negative ground the diode is fried.


Bob

[flatheadmurre]

Originally Posted by Bob C

The cutout on Hardtimes generator looks like it says Pos Grd so if you are
running negative ground the diode is fried.


Bob

The diode don´t fry...just doesn´t conduct any current...turn it around and there will be light

[flatheadmurre]

If it´s been on there backwards for a long time with battery hooked up it woud have drained the battery...and maybe done damage to the generator itself...

[fourfords]

If adjusting the brushes in the generator does not alter the voltage at all, then move the 'Troubleshooting' mode.
1) Verify generator works: hook up battery directly to the generator. if the generator turns, the generator works.
2) On rare occasions, original type cut-outs can stick, thus draining the battery. I tap the top of the cut-out with the handle of a screwdriver and it releases the internal contact. (his does not apply to diode based cut-outs as they're designed differently)

If you've already solved the problem, great! If not, keep at it!

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

The diode don´t fry...just doesn´t conduct any current...turn it around and there will be light

What was I thinking.

[Jim in Wisconsin]

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I would think a 3 brush generator is going to be 6 volt - and wouldn't be able to charge a 12 volt system. Or am I missing something?

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Jim in Wisconsin

I would think a 3 brush generator is going to be 6 volt - and wouldn't be able to charge a 12 volt system. Or am I missing something?

You probably have to move the third brush a loooooooooong way.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Jim in Wisconsin

I would think a 3 brush generator is going to be 6 volt - and wouldn't be able to charge a 12 volt system. Or am I missing something?

What I said in post #12....

[Bob C]

The three brush generator can charge an 12 volt battery, see
posts numbers 5 and 7 at the link. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=278477


Bob

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

If it´s been on there backwards for a long time with battery hooked up it woud have drained the battery...and maybe done damage to the generator itself...

Uh huh !
“Draining the battery”....is what has been happening !!
So...switch the two wire connections ?
Wow hoping it is that simple !

So, I’ve had it on a trickle charger 24/7.
Thought MAYBE bare wire short.
THANKS TO ALL you guys for your great diagnostics help.
I’ll let you know how things go.

[flatheadmurre]

Thing is with the 3-brush...they are a lot weaker then the later generator...you start pushing them hard they overheat and burn armatures.
A generator is same as motor it has a set power they can handle (watts..hp..whatever)
If you double the voltage and keep the same output current the generator is now working twice as hard...some does that without complaining...the armature of the 3-brush isn´t in the bunch that happily runs all day long...it will have a tough time dealing with the increased power output..
I would suggest going another route then converting 3-brush to 12v...a lot of things can be done...some is just not a first choice to do.

[koates]

hardtimes, the generator on your car is from a 1933 Ford. It has no cooling openings in the end plates which means it is not capable of any more safe maximum output than about 10 amps continuous operation. The 1934 Ford generator had cooling openings in the end housing and an integral fan cast into the pulley which means it had a higher safe output of approx. 15 amps. Your generator third brush setting should be set at no more than 10 amps maximum. If it is set higher than that, then the result will be a burnt out armature. The ""TRANSPO"" diode cut out will work OK on both 6 and 12 volts. It will also work OK on NEG or POS ground by turning it around on its mounting and swapping the two connections around. Take notice of the instruction sticker on the side of the cut out. I don't like using a 6 volt generator in a 12 volt system. One drawback is that the generator will have to be revved up higher before it starts to charge. 6 volt generators were designed to operate in 6 volt systems by electrical engineers and do not operate to their best on 12 volt systems. You cant just guess at what you are doing with this stuff, it has to be done correctly otherwise you will be in more trouble than Jessie James. Regards, Kevin.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by koates

hardtimes, the generator on your car is from a 1933 Ford. It has no cooling openings in the end plates which means it is not capable of any more safe maximum output than about 10 amps continuous operation. The 1934 Ford generator had cooling openings in the end housing and an integral fan cast into the pulley which means it had a higher safe output of approx. 15 amps. Your generator third brush setting should be set at no more than 10 amps maximum. If it is set higher than that, then the result will be a burnt out armature. The ""TRANSPO"" diode cut out will work OK on both 6 and 12 volts. It will also work OK on NEG or POS ground by turning it around on its mounting and swapping the two connections around. Take notice of the instruction sticker on the side of the cut out. I don't like using a 6 volt generator in a 12 volt system. One drawback is that the generator will have to be revved up higher before it starts to charge. 6 volt generators were designed to operate in 6 volt systems by electrical engineers and do not operate to their best on 12 volt systems. You cant just guess at what you are doing with this stuff, it has to be done correctly otherwise you will be in more trouble than Jessie James. Regards, Kevin.

Ha ha...more trouble than Jesse James !
I'm had some 'trouble', more or less most of life...Jesse was a friend of mine !!

Anyway, you say its a '33. I believe it, as this is on my '32 five window.
The coupe was restored sometime back and has done ok yet. But, this electrical thingy ,i.e.- part 12V (battry) and part 6V who knows what is total BS, eh !

I'm thinking the OLD dude or some dummy just installed a 12v
battery in a stock duece.
If so, that would explain several things...namely, NO lights ! Most likely blew every bulb in the car ?

Guess I'd better start digging into what this mess consists of. I can't believe someone would do that and it never occurred to me. time for a systtem check.

[koates]

That's not unusual for someone not in the know to do a 12 volt conversion by just fitting a 12 volt battery and then the jobs done. Ha Ha. Well check it all out and report back. Maybe easier to refit a 6 volt battery, replace all the blown globes and you are good to go. Nothing wrong with a 6 volt system if all components are up to scratch. Regards, Kevin.

[Tinker]

Guess things never worked before. So eager to change it after 80 plus years. 12volt battery!!!

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Alaska Jim

be sure to check that the belt tension is correct and that the belt is not slipping, if it is this could be the problem

Hey Jim,
Thanks, the belt is new and appears to be without wear. It is snug fit on pulley.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by koates

hardtimes, the generator on your car is from a 1933 Ford. It has no cooling openings in the end plates which means it is not capable of any more safe maximum output than about 10 amps continuous operation. The 1934 Ford generator had cooling openings in the end housing and an integral fan cast into the pulley which means it had a higher safe output of approx. 15 amps. Your generator third brush setting should be set at no more than 10 amps maximum. If it is set higher than that, then the result will be a burnt out armature. The ""TRANSPO"" diode cut out will work OK on both 6 and 12 volts. It will also work OK on NEG or POS ground by turning it around on its mounting and swapping the two connections around. Take notice of the instruction sticker on the side of the cut out. I don't like using a 6 volt generator in a 12 volt system. One drawback is that the generator will have to be revved up higher before it starts to charge. 6 volt generators were designed to operate in 6 volt systems by electrical engineers and do not operate to their best on 12 volt systems. You cant just guess at what you are doing with this stuff, it has to be done correctly otherwise you will be in more trouble than Jessie James. Regards, Kevin.

Hey koates,
Question:
Who ever put the 12V battery in, maybe did not polarize system , when doing so. If I remember correctly, an electrical system in an auto will NOT charge if not polarize ?? is that so ?

[Tinker]

My understanding... why you polarize a system. To change the polar magnetism. It's some wizard stuff that I'm not clear on or agree. I've always done it with regulars anyway (fields etc). Because they said so.


Putting a 12v on a 6 volt system has complications not related to polarization. Going from positive to negative ground is less important. You can do that with 6 volts and don't need to polarize anything on a regular stock cutout.



On a diode. https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/polarity/all


Battery has poles already setup. Generator spins in one direction only no matter the current direction. Greater minds will add.