Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-03-2015, 06:38 PM   #1
Zener424
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Staten Island, NY
Posts: 77
Default Caution for Drivers using Auto Restorations T5 Kit

I have posted previously about the T5 transmission swap I performed on my Model A, and I mentioned I was was quite satisfied. I have put about 1,200 miles on the car since the swap and have driven the car 55- 60 mph several times with no problems. My feelings changed this past weekend when while driving about 5 miles from home, preparing to get on the highway, when taking off from a traffic light, the driver's side rear radius rod broke apart at the welded section of the backing plate bracket, and fell to the ground. The passenger side was just about to go as well. What a mess. My friend had to tow me home with a rope. I knew when I put the T5 S10 transmission in and removed the original "torque tube", a situation was created where all the driving force would now be placed on the two rear radius rods. But I thought by purchasing Auto Restoration's new heavier duty radius rods, everything would be fine. Well the welds weren't done correctly (see photos) and they failed. Also, I'm now fully realizing that aside from the bad welds this can be a design engineering flaw, and the torque tube is way more important than I ever imagined. This whole thing has to be re-thought, and I'm quite dismayed over it.

I'm no longer comfortable with the idea of no torque tube and I don't like the fact that all the forward force and rear end tilting and twisting action is placed on those rods. Even if the welds are good, and the new steel radius rod stock is bigger, what about possible metal fatigue over time? Maybe I'm just getting ahead of myself. I'm just grateful this didn't happen on the highway at 60 mph. Perhaps all drivers of Model A open drive systems should beware, especially those that have installed radius rods from Auto Restorations, which is now out of business due to illness.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20151101_103206.jpg (51.1 KB, 640 views)
File Type: jpg 20151101_103736.jpg (39.1 KB, 629 views)
Zener424 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 07:01 PM   #2
2935ford
Senior Member
 
2935ford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Posts: 1,013
Default Re: Caution for Drivers using Auto Restorations T5 Kit

I did this same conversion on a 29 RPU but did not invest in their radius rods. I have since sold the pickup and the new owner upgraded to a hop'd up B motor. I have not heard of any issues with that setup.

Now thinking about it.........what kind of real world testing was done by Auto Restorations with this setup? I wonder!
2935ford is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 11-03-2015, 07:08 PM   #3
zzlegend
Senior Member
 
zzlegend's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Reseda, Calif.
Posts: 2,188
Default Re: Caution for Drivers using Auto Restorations T5 Kit

Those look like very cheesy welds and should have been double pinned on top of being welded properly. People don't realize the up and down torque when going to an open drive. But they can be done right and properly. Those,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well?
zzlegend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 07:32 PM   #4
Pete
Senior Member
 
Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wa.
Posts: 5,373
Default Re: Caution for Drivers using Auto Restorations T5 Kit

That is some of the worst cob job welding and poor engineering I have seen.

I have 2 door with a T5 with an 8 inch rear end, BUT, it doesn't matter what rear end you have the basic principle is the same.
You need radius rods that are strong enough to take the rotational torque from the axles AND the forward driving force.
It is relatively easy to design radius rods that will stand up to just about anything. A pair of 1 inch 4130 tubes with 1/4 wall, hairpin style on each side with mid gussets and both anchored to the belly band. The belly band needs to be 1/3/4 x 3/16 wall 4130 tubing and "K" braced to the rails.
Here is a pic of my front one but the rear is mounted the same.
I have over 50000 miles on this.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Hot rod wishbone.jpg (119.3 KB, 497 views)
Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 08:22 PM   #5
29closedcab
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Covington Twp Pa
Posts: 98
Default Re: Caution for Drivers using Auto Restorations T5 Kit

There should slow be a rosette weld where the bar slides into the tube.
29closedcab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 08:51 PM   #6
holdover
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: SW Virginia near the Blue ridge Parkway
Posts: 674
Default Re: Caution for Drivers using Auto Restorations T5 Kit

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
as said, the welds are very poor. Find a fabricator that can fix the mess by reinforcing what is there, it won't take long and it shouldn't cost too much, once done properly it will take all the road miles you throw at it.
holdover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 10:24 PM   #7
denis4x4
Senior Member
 
denis4x4's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Durango CO
Posts: 1,309
Default Re: Caution for Drivers using Auto Restorations T5 Kit

I put the Auto Restoration kit in the '29 ccpu in my avatar at least 10 years ago. I've posted photos here on Fordbarn several times showing how to reinforce the stock radius rods and properly modify the crossmember. In my opinion, the early T-5 kits were crap and I told the owner exactly what I thought of his product. Just saw an ad in SSOS for the kit with a new price of $1395. Inspite of the issues with the kit, the finished project is a joy to drive.
__________________
No restorable Model A's were harmed in the building of this truck!
denis4x4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 11:22 PM   #8
CWPASADENA
Senior Member
 
CWPASADENA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: PASADENA, CA
Posts: 1,881
Default Re: Caution for Drivers using Auto Restorations T5 Kit

It appears to me that someone needs to learn how to properly design radius rods and then learn how to weld.

This is a very poor design and the welds appear to be "cold" with no penetration. It looks like they used a wire feed which when done properly can produce good welds but a lot of the time, the operator does not know how to use the equipment and this is what you get.

Fabricated radius rods have been used for a very many years by hotrodders. They are putting many times the torque thru them that our 4 bangers develop. When properly designed and fabricated, rear radius rods are very strong and reliable. Get in touch with a good shop that does hot rod chassis work and they will know how to fabricate proper radius rods.

I would not try to reinforce what you have but to fabricate new ones that are designed correctly.

Last year, I helped a fellow club member who had the very same problem.

My experience and opinion.

Chris W.
CWPASADENA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 11:39 PM   #9
ian Simpson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 709
Default Re: Caution for Drivers using Auto Restorations T5 Kit

Quote:
Originally Posted by CWPASADENA View Post
It appears to me that someone needs to learn how to properly design radius rods and then learn how to weld.

This is a very poor design and the welds appear to be "cold" with no penetration. It looks like they used a wire feed which when done properly can produce good welds but a lot of the time, the operator does not know how to use the equipment and this is what you get.

Fabricated radius rods have been used for a very many years by hotrodders. They are putting many times the torque thru them that our 4 bangers develop. When properly designed and fabricated, rear radius rods are very strong and reliable. Get in touch with a good shop that does hot rod chassis work and they will know how to fabricate proper radius rods.

I would not try to reinforce what you have but to fabricate new ones that are designed correctly.

Last year, I helped a fellow club member who had the very same problem.

My experience and opinion.

Chris W.
I am not a good welder and do not like welding. However I do most of the welding around the farms. I have worked knee deep in re-cycled grass and water (also known as bull s**t) to make some incredible repairs to cattle pens, gates, etc. So I know that a correctly used wire welder can work wonders, but I know to my cost that they can put down a good looking weld that is absolute crap. When in doubt I use a big hammer to test the weld.

I distrust any welds on vital load bearing components such as radius rods purely y on principal. In fact I had a weld fail on the driveshaft of a new Volvo some 40 years back. Unfortunately most reliable testing of welds is destructive unless you have some sophisticated X-ray or ultra-sonic gear.
ian Simpson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2015, 01:03 AM   #10
pooch
Senior Member
 
pooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South Coast NSW Australia
Posts: 2,596
Default Re: Caution for Drivers using Auto Restorations T5 Kit

The same twisting force is applied to the radius rods under braking , only much more severe than a piddly 40 HP does to it on acceleration.

Think of it this way...

If you have good brakes, you can lock the rear wheels up and skid to a stop from top speed.

How far would you spin the wheels on take off?

Much much more force applied under braking.
pooch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2015, 03:50 AM   #11
Dollar Bill
Senior Member
 
Dollar Bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Keystone Heights, FL
Posts: 647
Default Re: Caution for Drivers using Auto Restorations T5 Kit

I would not throw out your investment in the HD radius rods. However, two modifications you may wish to consider: To prevent all of the load being carried by the weld, the yoke (solid steel part) should have a slight interference fit when inserted into the rectangular tubing. It should also extend further into the tubing to eliminate the hinge effect at the weld joint - 10" should get you where you need to be.

A competent welder can easily make both of those modifications.
__________________
I Love Anything That Turns Money Into Noise
Dollar Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2015, 07:29 AM   #12
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 11,485
Default Re: Caution for Drivers using Auto Restorations T5 Kit

Last year we had a vehicle come to us from Kentucky where a Model-A mechanic there talked the owner into installing this kit. In my opinion, this was a real cobble-job.


What brought all this on was there was a huge vibration which we traced to an input shaft adapter that was supplied in the kit to lengthen the input shaft to compensate for the clutch housing length. It allowed the input shaft to spin randomly off center, AND the adapter was too long so it was pressing against the crankshaft (I suspect the crank thrust is not long for this world now!). I just wound-up machining a new one. The rear radius rods on this vehicle had a bow in them too so we straightened them in a press, and then used 26/27 Model-T radius rods cut-down and grafted on so the looked authentic.

Oh BTW, this "Model-A expert" up there convinced the owner that to correct the driveline vibration issue that they should install Float-A-Motor mounts. So now this is a vehicle with a torch-cut center crossmember, and a set of F-A-M mounts. One can only shake their head in amazement!
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2015, 12:43 AM   #13
Pete
Senior Member
 
Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wa.
Posts: 5,373
Default Re: Caution for Drivers using Auto Restorations T5 Kit

The best of all worlds is to use the T5 UNMODIFIED and KEEP the torque tube.
Between the HAMB and Fordbarn I have probably posted the fairly easy solution with pics at least 3 times.
You will have to search for it this time.
My solution does require fabrication skills.
Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2015, 08:07 AM   #14
Zener424
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Staten Island, NY
Posts: 77
Default Re: Caution for Drivers using Auto Restorations T5 Kit

After careful thought and consideration, I have decided to remove the entire kit and install a Mitchell transmission. Down the road I may consider a Mitchell overdrive as well.

Thanks to everyone for their opinions, suggestions, advice and well wishes.
Zener424 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2015, 11:29 AM   #15
Bob C
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: So Cal
Posts: 8,712
Default Re: Caution for Drivers using Auto Restorations T5 Kit

Why not go with the Ford 4-speed OD trans. Full syncro, OD and closed driveline.

Bob
Attached Images
File Type: jpg trans14.jpg (46.1 KB, 127 views)
Bob C is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2015, 01:29 PM   #16
john in illinois
Senior Member
 
john in illinois's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2,181
Default Re: Caution for Drivers using Auto Restorations T5 Kit

+1 for 4 speed. No frame or mechanical brake modifications,uses torque tube.

John
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 003.JPG (150.8 KB, 160 views)

Last edited by john in illinois; 11-08-2015 at 01:34 PM.
john in illinois is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2015, 02:44 PM   #17
wensum
Senior Member
 
wensum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 444
Default Re: Caution for Drivers using Auto Restorations T5 Kit

I have found the F150 gearbox (3+1) to have rather too low ratios for 1st & 2nd and then there are three overdrive ratios available, Unknowingly, I discovered rather too late that my box has the 41% ratio. Fortunately my improved motor and light body cope with this ratio OK
However, the T5 gearbox is seriously tempting.
Additionally in lengthening and lowering the rear, new spring hangers were welded to the rear of the axle tubes similar to V8s and I think this contributes to resisting the turning moments?

Last edited by wensum; 11-08-2015 at 09:35 PM.
wensum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2015, 03:13 PM   #18
old victoria
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 44
Default Re: Caution for Drivers using Auto Restorations T5 Kit

Yes with all the 3 speed + O.D. kits we have built never that 41% . Our new S10 5 speed kit (as seen in secrets of speed mag) is all CNC machined and includes a rear end to rear trans mount support (or brace) but reinforcing the radius should still be done.
old victoria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2015, 03:31 PM   #19
Synchro909
Senior Member
 
Synchro909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,471
Default Re: Caution for Drivers using Auto Restorations T5 Kit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zener424 View Post
After careful thought and consideration, I have decided to remove the entire kit and install a Mitchell transmission. Down the road I may consider a Mitchell overdrive as well.

Thanks to everyone for their opinions, suggestions, advice and well wishes.
I have done many thousands of miles with this combination including towing a camper trailer around Australia, some 9,000+ miles. There is a gear for all occasions and with synchro on 2nd, 3rd and O/D, changing is a breeze. I even go from 2nd O/D to standard 3rd gear by moving both sticks at the same time. I heartily endorse your selection.
__________________
I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood.
Synchro909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2015, 07:20 PM   #20
oldredford
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Moncks Corner, SC
Posts: 439
Default Re: Caution for Drivers using Auto Restorations T5 Kit

It be far safer to just open your wallet and buy the Mitchell synchro transmission and overdrive. WTF you can't take it with you folks... Chevy transmissions do not belong in a Model A....
oldredford is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:17 AM.