1959 Mercury With An Autolite 2100

[Stephenorf]

I am going through this car getting ready to try and get to motor to run. I initially had fuel delivery issue which I narrowed down to the fuel pump. It looks to me as though the carb on the car is an Autolite 2100, but I'm not 100% sure as I am not an expert on carburetors. Would this be the original style carb that this car came with from the factory for a 1959 Mercury with 312 2v?

I have not begun to work on the carb yet, but I see it has a choke that uses heat from the exhaust manifold to operate. Whatever is supposed to connect between the choke and the exhaust manifold is missing. I guess I could convert to electric choke (or manual choke I guess, but I'm not too keen on manual choke). What method was used to get heat from the exhaust manifold the the carb, assuming this is the type of choke setup that come with the car from the factory?

Also, the throttle return spring is suspect. you can't see the end of the spring in the pic but it is hooked to the A/C compressor bracket and looks like it could let go at any minute....

[dmsfrr]

That curved bracket on the outside of the choke thermostat is there to hold one of the heater hoses. The circulating coolant heats the choke housing cover directly.
Fairly sure that's not original on a '59. The carburetor is likely from a newer engine application.

What on the exhaust manifold makes you think it should be connected to the choke housing?
Example photo...
.

[KULTULZ]

That is a later model 2100D.



I see there is no tag. Look at the left bowl casting and/or mounting foot to see if there are any ID NOS.

[fordor41]

the throttle return "should" go back to the throttle ass'y behind the carb. Although this is a newer carb, any ford 2100 will work, unless you're going for "correct".. My 2100 style on my '60 Y-block 292 went belly up and I replaced it with an extra 2100, of some year, from my '41 with a '81 302. works perfectly.

[Stephenorf]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

That curved bracket on the outside of the choke thermostat is there to hold one of the heater hoses. The circulating coolant heats the choke housing cover directly.
Fairly sure that's not original on a '59. The carburetor is likely from a newer engine application.

What on the exhaust manifold makes you think it should be connected to the choke housing?
Example photo...
.

Hi, so the choke housing has a threaded fitting to accomodate a heat tube that would run from the exhaust manifold to the carburetor. Here's a pic of the choke housing with the threaded fitting circled in red.

In the Maintenance Manual it states that mainfold vacuum draws heated air from the "exhaust mainfold heat chamber".

At least on later model cars (like mid-sixties) that's how the choke was designed to operate. The heater hose would also lay in the curved bracket. But heat from the exhaust manifold would be sucked into the choke housing, and warm air from the exhaust manifiold (along with heat from the heater hose) would cause the thermostatic spring to wind up and open the choke plate.

So I was wondering if there is supposed to be a tube that runs from that hole in the top of the exhaust minifold to the choke housing, and what it might look like on a 312ci engine (or any early Y block).

[Stephenorf]

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Originally Posted by fordor41

the throttle return "should" go back to the throttle ass'y behind the carb. Although this is a newer carb, any ford 2100 will work, unless you're going for "correct".. My 2100 style on my '60 Y-block 292 went belly up and I replaced it with an extra 2100, of some year, from my '41 with a '81 302. works perfectly.

OK thanks. I looked at I think the original throttle spring is still there. Maybe this other one (attached with bailing wire!) is a secondary spring. Maybe the idea is if the factory spring fails, This other spring would heep the throlle from staying in a WOT possition.

The first pic is what I think is the factory throttle return spring.
The second pic is the bailing wire get-up that the PO concocted.

[Stephenorf]

Originally Posted by fordor41

Although this is a newer carb, any ford 2100 will work, unless you're going for "correct".. My 2100 style on my '60 Y-block 292 went belly up and I replaced it with an extra 2100, of some year, from my '41 with a '81 302. works perfectly.

How do you have your choke setup? Do you have any plumbing from your exhaust manifold to the choke on the 2100? If so, I'd like to see a pic of your engine if you don't mind.

[KULTULZ]

My thought ... ... is the OEM spring was weak and he added an additional spring in lieu' (Fr.) of finding the correct original spring.

How do you have your choke setup? Do you have any plumbing from your exhaust manifold to the choke on the 2100? If so, I'd like to see a pic of your engine if you don't mind

Can you show a photo of your RH exhaust manifold?

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by Stephenorf

Hi, so the choke housing has a threaded fitting to accomodate a heat tube that would run from the exhaust manifold to the carburetor. Here's a pic of the choke housing with the threaded fitting circled in red.

In the Maintenance Manual it states that mainfold vacuum draws heated air from the "exhaust mainfold heat chamber".

At least on later model cars (like mid-sixties) that's how the choke was designed to operate. The heater hose would also lay in the curved bracket. But heat from the exhaust manifold would be sucked into the choke housing, and warm air from the exhaust manifiold (along with heat from the heater hose) would cause the thermostatic spring to wind up and open the choke plate.

So I was wondering if there is supposed to be a tube that runs from that hole in the top of the exhaust minifold to the choke housing, and what it might look like on a 312ci engine (or any early Y block).

The Y-block exhaust manifold I included a photo of above & below has a '59 casting number on it (B9AE) so I'd *assume* it would be correct for your '59 Merc.
The heat tube for the choke would plug in to the top of the exh manif, draw fresh air from around the outside edge of it, then run above the valve cover to the threaded fitting on the choke thermostat housing.

A similar looking exh manifold (with a newer C1AE number) was used in early 60's Y-block Fords but Merc's were using a different engine by then IIRC.
http://www.y-block.info/casting/exhaust.html
.

[Stephenorf]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

The Y-block exhaust manifold I included a photo of above & below has a '59 casting number on it (B9AE) so I'd *assume* it would be correct for your '59 Merc.
The heat tube for the choke would plug in to the top of the exh manif, draw fresh air from around the outside edge of it, then run above the valve cover to the threaded fitting on the choke thermostat housing.

A similar looking exh manifold (with a newer C1AE number) was used in early 60's Y-block Fords but Merc's were using a different engine by then IIRC.
http://www.y-block.info/casting/exhaust.html
.

Yes, that looks exactly like the one on my 312. I saw the hole in the top of the manifold. That's what I was thinking, I could fabricate a heat tube to run from inside that hole on the exhaust manifold to the choke on the carb. That little hole looks like it is filled with sand! I'll have to blow it out first.

[Stephenorf]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

My thought ... ... is the OEM spring was weak and he added an additional spring in lieu' (Fr.) of finding the correct original spring.

Maybe. I know a lot of times we put double sprigs on the throttle return. I guess somewhere along the way one (or more likely more than just one) must have broke and caused some major problems for the auto manufaturers. By the looks of it, I'd bet that the baling wire job would give way befor the factory spring broke.

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Can you show a photo of your RH exhaust manifold?

Viola

[fordor41]

Originally Posted by Stephenorf

How do you have your choke setup? Do you have any plumbing from your exhaust manifold to the choke on the 2100? If so, I'd like to see a pic of your engine if you don't mind.

I put a rubber cap over the threaded port on the choke ass'y. have no tube to the manifold but the "chimney" hole is there. I have the choke turned so the choke plate is wide open. 2 pumps of gas and is running, even in winter. actually on our '41, with same carb, I removed the entire choke ass'y completely, plugged any vac. ports and ran it like that for 20 yrs.

[KULTULZ]

That should be a factory EXH MAN.



The question is ... how does the choke stove receive filtered outside air?

Who put the coil mount on the rocker cover hold down stud?

Now just to aggravate you a little further, your engine (1959 MERC 312-2V) should have come thru with a HOLLEY 2300 2V carb.

I will get back with more info.

[Stephenorf]

Originally Posted by fordor41

I put a rubber cap over the threaded port on the choke ass'y. have no tube to the manifold but the "chimney" hole is there. I have the choke turned so the choke plate is wide open. 2 pumps of gas and is running, even in winter. actually on our '41, with same carb, I removed the entire choke ass'y completely, plugged any vac. ports and ran it like that for 20 yrs.

Hmm...that's very interesting as the threaded port on the carb has a ruber cap on it. The ruber cap looks like someone beat the snot out of it though. It is cracked in at least 2 places. I'm sure it isn't doing it's designated job in it's delapidated condition. I might try plugging the port, but I think I'd like to try to get the chake operable too. Hmmm....I will probably start with plugging the hole, and then eventually plumbing an inmprovised heat tube to the manifuld.

[58Yeoman]

You used to be able to buy the choke tube kit that had the metal tube, brass nut and insulation covering. Don't know if they are still available or not. IIRC, wasn't there also a metal tube that went to a hole in the bottom of the exhaust manifold and went to the air cleaner for the fresh air intake of the choke stove? Getting old and forgetting stuff = CRS (can't remember sh*t).

[Stephenorf]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

That should be a factory EXH MAN.



The question is ... how does the choke stove receive filtered outside air?

Yeah, my question exactly. But I think in this case, the way we're figurin gthis out, it doesn't get filtered air. It pulls air from around that hole in the manifold. Condider there might supposed to be a heat stove on there too. Nonetheless, the consensus is that the air is just pulled into the tube that is pushed all the way down inside the hole in the manifod. I suppose some dust or rust specs might be drawn into the carb, but at least nothing too big. I also suspect the heat tube circumference (OD) is such that it just fits in that hole, and maybe also some of that heat-resistant asbestos cloth would get pushed down around the top of the hole. These two factors would mitigate a lot of the junk that could be sucked into the carb such as from an wide-open vacuum leak.

If someone knows the correct setup on the 312 I'd be very interested to see it. I've looked for a pic of a 312 2V on the internet with the air filter assembly removed (so as to get a good view of the passenger side exhaust manifold and choke plumbing), but didn't have much luck. Most of the pics are for modified engines or they have the air cleaner installed and prevents getting a good look at the choke setup.

The minor detail I did notice is that the choke tube hole on the factory carbs seem to be orientated differently than the 2100 I have on the car. That is to say the hole faces the passenger side wheel well (perpendicular to the choke housing) whereas the 2100 I have the hole faces down and rearward (towards the intake manifold). I can still plumb the choke either way, so its no biggie, just an observation.

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Who put the coil mount on the rocker cover hold down stud?

Well, certainly the PO can have the privelege of taking the blame for all of the tomfoolery on this motor. It also has a spark plug wire seperator attached to the same spot (a big ugly chrome one). I found the matching one in the trunk.

So where is the correct spot for mounting the coil?

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Now just to aggravate you a little further, your engine (1959 MERC 312-2V) should have come thru with a HOLLEY 2300 2V carb.

It looks like for 1959 the 383 2V would have gotten an Autolite 2100, although an earlier model of the carburetor.

I don't know which 2v holley, or if the Ford part number is stamped on the old Holley carburetors, but per the Master Parts Catalog the correct Holley carb is B9ME-9510-B (see attachment below)

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

I will get back with more info.

ok, thanks!

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Stephenorf

Hmm...that's very interesting as the threaded port on the carb has a ruber cap on it. The ruber cap looks like someone beat the snot out of it though. It is cracked in at least 2 places. I'm sure it isn't doing it's designated job in it's delapidated condition. I might try plugging the port, but I think I'd like to try to get the chake operable too. Hmmm....I will probably start with plugging the hole, and then eventually plumbing an inmprovised heat tube to the manifuld.

That rubber cap is sealing a controlled vacuum leak that the choke uses to pull hot air from the EXH MAN. Without that heat (or electric) the choke will be inoperable.

There were several design changes during this period. If your EXH MAN is ID'd as B9AE, it should be the one the engine was assembled with (if the engine is OEM install).

These ILL's are for the FORD retro-kit bit but is similar to the 59 OEM install -

Originally Posted by 58Yeoman

You used to be able to buy the choke tube kit that had the metal tube, brass nut and insulation covering. Don't know if they are still available or not. IIRC, wasn't there also a metal tube that went to a hole in the bottom of the exhaust manifold and went to the air cleaner for the fresh air intake of the choke stove? Getting old and forgetting stuff = CRS (can't remember sh*t).

The system you are describing came later -

[Stephenorf]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

That rubber cap is sealing a controlled vacuum leak that the choke uses to pull hot air from the EXH MAN. Without that heat (or electric) the choke will be inoperable.

There were several design changes during this period. If your EXH MAN is ID'd as B9AE, it should be the one the engine was assembled with (if the engine is OEM install).

These ILL's are for the FORD retro-kit bit but is similar to the 59 OEM install -

Thank you, that's good info. I couldn't find an exploded diagram of the choke setup in any of my books or online. I did happen across a phote of this original-looking 1959 312 2V online.

It appears the choke pulls in unfiltered air from the hole in the manifold. I'm guessing this is correct plumbing for my year/motor.

So where is the correct mounting location for the coil? Looks like on the intake manifold per this pic.

P.S. Where did you find that illustration of the thermostatic choke setup?

[Stephenorf]

Originally Posted by 58Yeoman

You used to be able to buy the choke tube kit that had the metal tube, brass nut and insulation covering. Don't know if they are still available or not. IIRC, wasn't there also a metal tube that went to a hole in the bottom of the exhaust manifold and went to the air cleaner for the fresh air intake of the choke stove? Getting old and forgetting stuff = CRS (can't remember sh*t).

Yes, that would make perfect sense. That way the supply of air getting pulled into the carb choke would be clean. I haven't looked at the botttom of the exhaust manifold, but I bet there is a hole under there for the "other side" of the circuit. I know you can still buy the choke tube kit for older Mustangs, and I bet with some small amount of modification they could be made to fit the 312.

Hmm...and I have an open element air cleaner. I'll have to figure out how to route the other end of the tube to a filtered air source.

Oh, when I looked in that hole in the top of the exhaust manifold, it was full of what looks like sand.

[KULTULZ]

... the supply of air getting pulled into the carb choke would be clean. I haven't looked at the botttom of the exhaust manifold, but I bet there is a hole under there for the "other side" of the circuit.

.

There is. On the B9AE manifold, there is an inlet filter as shown -

Did you previously post your exhaust manifold CASTING ID NOS?

EDIT -

That 1st ILL is marked incorrectly. While it says 292, it is FE only. The INLET FILTER will be directly on the manifold underside of the top fitting.

The 2nd ILL shows the position of the 292/312 FYB B9AE-9430-A fresh air inlet filter.