Need help with brakes

[larrys40]

Leo,
I have done many, many Model A brake jobs.. they are on of my forte's.....
I watched your video and here's a few observations on my part.

1. In your video I watched how when you touched the right shoe (one sticking)it seemed to have a little more than normal play for/aft on the pin.... Sometimes the holes get sloppy in the shoes... as do the original pins and the brake adjust shaft pins.. and brake adjust shafts ( they have the point on them). Ensure that the hole or Tunnel as Tom Endy called it is free from burs, as well as the adjuster pin/arm themselves. I've also seen where there are burs on the end of the shoe where the adjuster pin goes can actually bind against the adjuster pin. Sometimes the shoe is at fault, sometimes the adjuster pin is too tight against the shoe and can cause binding. A little white grease is good to ensure that they slide well in the mating adjuster wedge housing. Attention to detail is key in these areas.
I think your springs are probably OK...., with the exception of the one that is slightly sprung.. and like Tom, I prefer the lower springs "over" the pin. Again, not that this is your problem... but when you have problems it's prudent to ensure that all the details are the best they can be. Make sure your top adjuster pins are the "shorter" correct pin, again, heads out, cotters tight around the pin. It looks like your other cotters are well done.
I believe this is the core of your "adjusting" problem... now on to others I see.

2. The shoes are not "Chamfered" at the top and bottom of the shoes between the leading edge of the shoe and the rivets.. If not chamfered it can cause a soft pedal, incorrect adjustments, and of course less than full contact of the shoe within the drum ( at least until full break in). Also, not chamfering can cause brake chatter.
removingthe shoes, sanding them on a belt sander to chamfer them a little ( don't go overboard) will definitely help ensure your getting better contact and adjustment.
Make sure shoes are "centered" on the backing plates for correct drum contact.

3. Your operating shaft arm doesn't appear to be far enough forward In the "brake released" position. That could be because the operating pin is too short, and as Tom said can be built up with weld or braze to lengthen, and/or adding another pill. When the brake is full depressed the brake operating lever should be no further back than vertical. Any further you have lost your mechanical advantage and braking effectiveness.

4. You have v8 shocks.. that typically stick out too far and catch on the brake rods. I would pay attention to the rod alignment from the front of the car looking at the shock/brake rods. You may need to obtain some Model A shocks to correct this.

5. I advise to ensure the brake shoes are "centered" within the backing plate for proper contact with the drum... after the shoes are "arced" or fit to the drum. Each drum/set of shoes are to be fit to each respective drum.

6. final notes, include making sure that the wedges, even though they may "look" good, do not have any dished areas on the sides. They can be slightly dressed on a narrow belt sander or file.. but do not alter the contour. Additionally, ensure that all brake rollers and pins fit and roll, without slop and any bind.

7. Worn spindle bolts, loose backing plate bolts.. etc can cause brake issues. Ensure that all of those are tight. if the backing plate is not squared or there is slop/loose, the brake operating pin can bind within the king pin and cause issues. Look at how many pins have wear in this area and you will see how common that problem is.


As I said in #1, in watching your video, I believe that your problem in the "Adjusting" part is mainly in your adjuster arms and binding/ slop in the shoes/pins/adjuster housing, etc. You're just going to have to carefully inspect all these parts to see where the problems are... and correct them.

Everyone thinks brakes are easy. They are not... and even though I have more brake jobs under my belt than I can count.... and I pretty much have them down to a science... you still get stuff that can give you grief. Pay attention to detail, be patient, fix/replace all worn parts... ( which means don't be cheap) and I'm confident you will persevere.
Keep us posted.. Good luck!
Larry Shepard

[Steve Wastler]

This isn't rocket since, you have springs to keep things in place and tight, and pull things back toward center, they aren't pulling back due to lack of spring pressure. It was just a tap on the shoe to bring it back, just get different springs. Why make things harder than they have to be???????????????????

[larrys40]

Steve, not trying to make it rocket science... his springs look like they are the snyders springs and they are generally plenty stout.. in fact the lowers are incredibly strong. If all is free on the upper end the adjusters will work even without the lowers attached. I just think he has a bind somewhere. Even the reference "that it just takes a tap" to put them back into place shows there there may bur or bind somewhere.

I am not against trying some stouter heavier upper springs..... it's just that you have to have the other things good as well.... and I thought at some time and point they indicated they put on a couple of different springs... same results. I still think my observations are relevant.

Larry Shepard

[ericr]

I hate to add to the melee but could the backing plate itself be distorted?

[Elcastor]

I guess I will add my 2 cents....... I can not tell from the video whether the upper spring is being extended any, or not. I seems to me that maybe the upper spring is too long, and not applying enough pressure on the shoes. Those arms are either being held out by burrs, or the springs are too long to pull the shoes back all the way.

[Jeff in BC]

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Leo

Just as a point of information, according to the book "Model A Ford .Construction .Operation .Repair" by Victor W. Page on page 454 figure 196, your brake springs are installed correctly.

This book is available from all the local suppliers. The revised edition was released in April 1931 and covers all Model A chassis up to that date. It is sort of the equivalent of a Haynes manual for modern cars.

Jeff

[spinelll]

Great feedback. I'm gonna work on a few things and report back.

To larrys40
That post was really above and beyond. Thank you. I did/do notice that the right shoe is a little sloppy but I didn't realize the potential affect.

[ctvpa]

Check the pins on other brakes, some time you have to grind and polish some of the pins to get them to run smooth. When it was restored, often times the pins were now on a different wheel. Some are repop pins that need some adjusting. I polished mine with 2000 grit, then buffed them out until they worked smooth. If you want really nice brakes consider Flathead Teds www.flatheadted.com . I put them on mine, and I can lock up all 4 wheels. Dramatic improvement.

[spinelll]

Here’s the latest:

I stayed up late last night to fiddle with this (you know how it is when you get bitten by the bug). I swapped the adjusting shafts and the lower springs (left to right, right to left). BTW, the shafts were smooth. For “fun” I wrapped some fine emery cloth around a dowel, put the dowel in a drill and smoothed the “tunnel” a bit. Same result, the right side is still binding.
I think it’s safe to say that I’ve eliminated the shafts and lower springs as the source of the problem.

I also eliminated the upper spring as the issue. I took the upper off (leaving the lowers on) and then worked each shoe by hand. Left smooth, right binds.

Next, I’m gonna see if that extra play in the right shoe (pointed out by a few folks) is it.

[ctvpa]

I took my pins off the shoes and did a careful grinder and file to them, to a point where they did not bind, then I used a buffer to polish them smooth. If you clean everything up, and put some chalk on the pin, then place the pin in and out, look where the chalk is gone, that will be your hang up. Usually on the upper point of the pin. I marked each pin and shoe to each wheel.
Be sure to grease them up well.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Jeff in BC

Leo

Just as a point of information, according to the book "Model A Ford .Construction .Operation .Repair" by Victor W. Page on page 454 figure 196, your brake springs are installed correctly.

This book is available from all the local suppliers. The revised edition was released in April 1931 and covers all Model A chassis up to that date. It is sort of the equivalent of a Haynes manual for modern cars.

Jeff

That is simply the natural way to install the lower springs since the shoe end is installed first. Rolling the spring over 180 degrees will make no difference in functional clearance or angle of tension so doing so will neither help nor hinder function.

The Page book is the first book I ever purchased with my own money. $6.00 was BIG money for me when I was 12-13 years old! Actually I was making about $30 a month from my newspaper route which averaged 100 customers. However I was saving what I could wanting to buy a Model A. I was totally on my own in that endeavor!

[MartyAndrew]

Mr. 1930 Coupe on Oct 31 is on the right track. You have a bind occurring between the pin and the bore it rides in. You have to find the source of it.
Take off the springs, then hold the right shoe in place at the lower pivot point on the roller track, up against the lower wedge, and move the pin in and out of the bore. While doing this, try pulling the shoe away from the back plate a little. Then do the same while holding it toward the backplate. The try sliding it up a little, then down on the roller track. If any of these causes the pin to bind upon return, you've narrowed down where to look for the bind.
I noticed that you pushed toward the backplate to get the shoe to return, which it did readily (springs are fine). I also noticed that when you pushed on the shoe the force of the top spring pulling together tends to "twist" the shoe away from the back plate. This twisting motion could be creating the bind. Notice the sort of sharp edge on the top right of the pin in the attached pic. In the installed position this edge is 'toward' the backplate and could be catching in a very small "indentation", pit, or wear mark in the bore. Emery cloth on a drill will not remove such an indentation. One way to check this theory also, is adjust the shoes all the way out. Does the right shoe come back to the same place and stick there every time? If so, more evidence of a pit in the bore. I noticed that when you loosen the adjuster the right pin vibrates and moves in about 0.5mm then it stops moving in and the vibration of the adjuster gets less as it moves away from the pin. But it DOES retract a little bit at first.
I liked 1930 Coupe's suggestion of cleaning everything out completely, then put paint or sharpie on the pin, run your bind procedure, then carefully remove the springs then the shoes, remove the pin and see where the paint is worn off the pin. This will quickly 'pinpoint' the location of the bind.
Good luck. I am subscribing to your post. I actually work at the modern Ford Motor Co. in brake engineering, and I always love a good brake puzzle!! Can't wait to hear what the solution is.

PS - The lower wedge doesn't look right. It is rotated counterclockwise. The actuation pin contacts it at an angle. Why is this? Is your roller track on crooked? (I see it's new.) Or is it too high or too low such that it could be pushing the right shoe too high or low, causing the pin to bind? It may not directly cause the bind up top, but everything should be "right", on principle.

Marty

[Steve Wastler]

In the original post, the op states it happens on front brakes as well as rear, so all have the same issue. BUY new springs from Brattons and compare the springs, if they match ill buy back the new ones with shipping to me. If they don't, that's your problem.

[spinelll]

Originally Posted by MartyAndrew

...Notice the sort of sharp edge on the top right of the pin in the attached pic. In the installed position this edge is 'toward' the backplate and could be catching in a very small "indentation", pit, or wear mark in the bore.
...

PS - The lower wedge doesn't look right. It is rotated counterclockwise...
Marty

Marty

Thanks for the interest.
As you noted, the sharp edge of the adjusting shaft is installed "towards" the backplate in your pic. That's the correct orientation? I would have thought that it was the other way. That is, where the bevel of the shaft mates with the bevel of the adjusting wedge. I don't think this is my issue but I'll try it.

On the crooked lower wedge, I think that was just me playing with it.

Unfortunately, I'm still a working slob and don't get to spend much time on this during the weekdays.

[Steve Wastler]

Will add one more comment then I'm done talking to a wall.

If your upper spring is to long, stretched or weak, and the lowers are to short or too strong, that could easily cause a bind at the top, the fact you removed the upper spring proves nothing other than you still have a bind which you state. Correct springs will hold things things the right way, pulled in to where they need to be. Again, problems adjusting will be problems in overal function.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by spinelll

Marty

Thanks for the interest.
As you noted, the sharp edge of the adjusting shaft is installed "towards" the backplate in your pic. That's the correct orientation? I would have thought that it was the other way. That is, where the bevel of the shaft mates with the bevel of the adjusting wedge. I don't think this is my issue but I'll try it.

On the crooked lower wedge, I think that was just me playing with it.

Unfortunately, I'm still a working slob and don't get to spend much time on this during the weekdays.

No, look at the picture in #34. The cotter pin MUST face the backing plate as this assembly is shown. The bevels must match each other.

[MartyAndrew]

Right, the bevels must match. The shoe in my pic is normally on the right, but I flipped it over to the left to photograph the bevel on the pin. The cotter pin faces the backplate when installed on the correct side. The sharp edge I referred to is the one made by the obtuse angle formed between the bevel and the side of the pin. Good luck. I hope something someone has suggested fixes this!

[Mike in NRN IN]

Leo,

I would suggest taking a screwdriver or drift punch and pushing at various points on the forward shoe to get an idea of what might be hanging up. You may have to do this a couple times. . .

Just a thought.

I like the ideas of the springs being over-stretched - but I also wonder if there is something else causing a bind / misalignment.

I do know that my braking plate had some hardened grease/tar-like substance that was preventing my shoes from 'moving freely', but yours looks super clean.

Originally Posted by spinelll

I‘ve been pulling (what’s left of) my hair out trying to adjust my brakes. I’ve found the source of one of the issues but I don’t know how to address it.
This video is only about 2 minutes long. Give it look. I appreciate any suggestions. Note that the video shows the front brakes but I have the same symptoms in the rear.

http://youtu.be/BsHkjtuNT2w

Thanks
Leo

[MartyAndrew]

So, did the springs work?