toe in tool

[aermotor]

Someone was selling a toe in tool with two equal length chains that had a rod from tire to tire, roll the car for and aft until the chains touched the floor in the front and rear of the tire, the rod had a gauge that read the tow in (or out) in degrees. Any one know about it and where to get?

[Patrick L.]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/28457191250...gAAOSwXAVhvBeR



I think this is what you're thinking about.

These work well, I use one.

But, brand spanking new is pricey !



https://www.ebay.com/itm/15329609074...wAAOSw96Zb8u-d


This one is more reasonable

[GPierce]

https://www.brattons.com/FRONT-AXLE-...ductinfo/4511/

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LdNb-NU9vf0

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I think those gages are very outdated, and WAY too troublesome. At the shop, we use 'Toe Plates' to set the toe-in measurement because it is super fast. (Google them.)

We carry a set in our race car trailer to use at the track, and many pro racing teams use them to set the alignment on their competition cars. They are THAT accurate.

[aermotor]

Can't see any difference between the ebay one for $89.18 and the other one for
for $294. John

[Bob C]

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The $294 one is Australian dollars.

[MrBruce]

I bought one not long ago and it was under $100.00. We have one in the club tool crib also and they work great. My new 31 Pickup was an inch and a half out and you couldn't drive it 25 mph when I bought it. I know the people who owned it could not have driven it that way. She said she bought it because it was "Cute" They were in the country and it sat for 18 years before she sold it to me. Lucky Me

[old31]

I bought this years ago and works well.

https://www.amazon.com/SPC-Performan...ps%2C86&sr=8-7

[GeneBob]

I made one using a 2 foot length of 1" PVC pipe, a pipe cap, a 1" diameter X 4 foot wooden dowel and a spring. I think I got the idea from another thread here on Fordbarn. It works very well.
I use a tape measure to set the height, then make a mark on the dowel, then reposition it and check the difference. A little more fidgeting around but a lot less expensive. How often will you need to do this?

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by old31

I bought this years ago and works well.

https://www.amazon.com/SPC-Performan...ps%2C86&sr=8-7

I have one of those as well

[burner31]

I made my own, out of what I had in the garage.

[old ugly]

toe in fyi

the issue with the spring gauges and chains is
- if one of or both of the wheels are not true. runout
or
- the tire is not on the rim true. runout
then the spring type gauge is not at all accurate.
make sure you have no wobbles in your wheels or tires. (model A wheels have been known to be bent)

if you have a bit of a wobbley tire or wheel
and
if you are going to do your toe-in with at tape measure you need to lift the front of the car wheels off the ground, spin the tire while at the same time scribing a line on the center tread of the tire, do it on both tires. then with the car back on the ground measure between scribe marks at the front and rear of the tires at the exact same height.

[Tom A400]

They work great

[grj]

Former Ford employee used 2 yardsticks. Fixed my shimmy shake. Do not ask me how.

[whiskeyb]

Gentlemen : I tend to lean on the cheap with a 3.00 telescoping curtain rod.

[daveymc29]

Second Whiskey B. I made one out of a curtain rod, two blocks of wood and two round headed fencing bolts that fit into the end of the curtain rod. Put two nuts on the curtain rod with some plastic weld sticum and when I use them I position the blocks so they hold the tool about 6 inches off the floor and measure inside distance between tires at a line on the tire. Mine have a line, if not jack it up and spin, chalk and make a line inside each. Then I turn one bolt so the tool just touched the line on the two tires. I then move the car half a tire rotation forward or back and check this distance. A couple fo times of doing this I know which way and how much to turn the Tie rod to get the proper toe in.
Tighten things up when done, some forget that part, I'm told.

[Bill Z]

Originally Posted by old ugly

toe in fyi

the issue with the spring gauges and chains is
- if one of or both of the wheels are not true. runout
or
- the tire is not on the rim true. runout
then the spring type gauge is not at all accurate.
make sure you have no wobbles in your wheels or tires. (model A wheels have been known to be bent)

if you have a bit of a wobbley tire or wheel
and
if you are going to do your toe-in with at tape measure you need to lift the front of the car wheels off the ground, spin the tire while at the same time scribing a line on the center tread of the tire, do it on both tires. then with the car back on the ground measure between scribe marks at the front and rear of the tires at the exact same height.

Actually, the opposite is true. With a spring gauge or “Duby” toe-in gauge, a bent wheel or one with run-out is not a factor when measuring for proper toe-in specification. When it’s set up in front of the axle between the tire sidewalls with the chains just touching the floor, the gauge is then calibrated or set to zero. When the car is rolled forward and the gauge rotates with the wheels/tires from a 4 o’clock position to an 8 o’clock position, it remains at that same set point, relative to the wheels/ tires. The only thing that changes the reading on the gauge, is the amount of toe-in or toe-out, which is the difference in degree of angle between the left and right spindles relative to each other.

I just had this same conversation at tonight’s Model A club meeting when I gave a demonstration of my version of this type of gauge that I built with mostly stuff I had laying around. Here’s some pictures.

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I think those gages are very outdated, and WAY too troublesome. At the shop, we use 'Toe Plates' to set the toe-in measurement because it is super fast. (Google them.)

We carry a set in our race car trailer to use at the track, and many pro racing teams use them to set the alignment on their competition cars. They are THAT accurate.

Brent, is this the device you are referring too? I have never seen one before but appear easy to use. Thanks for the heads up.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/19515158117...IAAOSwMkRe0JsK

I don't imagine it would work so good if you had a bent/wobbly wheel/tire?

[Phil Brown]

If you got a bent wheel don't ya think that that should be fixed before the alignment ? But yea those are what Brent was talking about. They work great and are super easy to use.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I think those gages are very outdated, and WAY too troublesome. At the shop, we use 'Toe Plates' to set the toe-in measurement because it is super fast. (Google them.)

We carry a set in our race car trailer to use at the track, and many pro racing teams use them to set the alignment on their competition cars. They are THAT accurate.

Brent,

Is this what you’re talking about? Not a bad price.

HECASA DIY Toe Plates Wheel Alignment Tool High Grade Aluminum https://a.co/hoO8yr4


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[shew01]

Sorry. I just saw Ruth’s post.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[shew01]

Interesting video.

https://youtu.be/TTkSwuXKWpM


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[shew01]

This sounds like a viable way to get around bent wheels. You can “mount” the toe plates directly on the hubs if you cut the appropriate holes on the toe plates.

https://youtu.be/XB2DgciGQa8


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by Phil Brown

If you got a bent wheel don't ya think that that should be fixed before the alignment ? But yea those are what Brent was talking about. They work great and are super easy to use.

I don't have a bent wheel, just included as I thought someone would comment on it.

[Chuck Kuntz]

My method is two common pins and a tape measure. place pins in tread at rear of tire, measure, then roll forward and measure again leaving pins in place. This eliminates runout on wheel and tire effects.

[Bill Z]

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Originally Posted by Chuck Kuntz

My method is two common pins and a tape measure. place pins in tread at rear of tire, measure, then roll forward and measure again leaving pins in place. This eliminates runout on wheel and tire effects.

Chuck’s method using two pins does indeed eliminate the effects of wheel/tire runout on toe measurement. That’s because like a Duby or “spring gauge” it uses a single measuring set-point at both front wheels, that move in unison from and to a measured height, front to rear as the car is rolled. The chains on the gauge establish this.

Since each wheel has it’s own rotational plane, the only variable between the two wheels, at that measurement set-point, is toe-in/out. Camber, while not adjustable, effects the reading on the gauge while the car is rolled, but returns when the gauge or pins are brought back up to measuring height.

The use of measurement plates on the front wheels would definitely be effected by runout or a bent wheel. Other methods certainly work, but the Duby or spring gauge is convenient, especially when working alone, and repeatably accurate. Just my opinion.

[Ed in Maine]

I liked GeneBob's comments. Guys, get with it and make your own tool. I used a length of electrical conduit, coil spring (hardware store item) and a wood dowel that would slide easily in the conduit. Cut a slot in the conduit at a position where you can read a paper ruler glued to the dowel. Then you need a (2) short lengths of chain and couple of ends on the conduit that are somewhat pointed to stick on the wheel where the tire meets the rim. You can make these with pipe caps and screws threaded into the caps. My Toe-In tool hangs in the garage and is certainly a part of the Model A hobby. Have fun with it!

One final comment, after making this tool and getting the car back on the road, I took the car to a gas station and had them check the toe-in. They told me it was so close it was not worth changing it! Ed

[Dino's A]

I like the spring loaded curtain rod idea. Or those spring
loaded shower rods as well. I guess you can make a little
sheet metal plate that can be used to tell you where you are
at. Even some chains to make it level??? Great idea!

[old ugly]

Originally Posted by Bill Z

Actually, the opposite is true. With a spring gauge or “Duby” toe-in gauge, a bent wheel or one with run-out is not a factor when measuring for proper toe-in specification. When it’s set up in front of the axle between the tire sidewalls with the chains just touching the floor, the gauge is then calibrated or set to zero. When the car is rolled forward and the gauge rotates with the wheels/tires from a 4 o’clock position to an 8 o’clock position, it remains at that same set point, relative to the wheels/ tires. The only thing that changes the reading on the gauge, is the amount of toe-in or toe-out, which is the difference in degree of angle between the left and right spindles relative to each other.

I just had this same conversation at tonight’s Model A club meeting when I gave a demonstration of my version of this type of gauge that I built with mostly stuff I had laying around. Here’s some pictures.

ok ill let my trade school teacher know that he is wrong.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Ruth

Brent, is this the device you are referring too? I have never seen one before but appear easy to use. Thanks for the heads up.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/19515158117...IAAOSwMkRe0JsK

I don't imagine it would work so good if you had a bent/wobbly wheel/tire?

Yes.


As mentioned, a bent wheel changes everything ...no matter what type gauge you choose to use. For me, I would check measurement with the toe-plates, then roll the vehicle forward about 2 foot (-about a ¼ turn of the wheel) and re-measure. Compare your readings and adjust accordingly.

[GMCPASO]

Originally Posted by aermotor

Can't see any difference between the ebay one for $89.18 and the other one for
for $294. John

Agree with that observation. We have one in our club purchased by a member.

It is stored at my house and has been used 4 times now and all are amazed at how well their cars now drive/steer.

Great tool.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by aermotor

Can't see any difference between the ebay one for $89.18 and the other one for
for $294. John

Nor the $45 one. https://www.ebay.com/itm/19515158117...IAAOSwMkRe0JsK

[Bill Z]

Here’s a link to an original copy of paperwork for a Duby toe-in gauge. It specifically states that wheel runout does not effect the accuracy of the gauge and explains why. The key point being ONE contact measuring point between the two front wheels during the entire procedure.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Nor the $45 one. https://www.ebay.com/itm/19515158117...IAAOSwMkRe0JsK

I think the higher-end plates have finer gradations marked on the tape.

[nkaminar]

Here is a photo of MY toe in tool. Sorry, not very good looking but its all I got.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

I think the higher-end plates have finer gradations marked on the tape.

Haha, funny. I sure hope your eyes are a heck of a lot better than mine to read smaller than 1/32" on a tape measure.

[daveymc29]

So do most set toe in to 1/32 inch? I have yet to measure mine with anything other than look at the gap fore and aft and make sure the gap at the end of my gage is to the rear of the tire sidewall about 6 inches off the ground. I say about because I use a couple of pieces of 2 X 6 and I know that to be really 5.5 inches, not 6.0. The gap I measure by eye, if it looks right I tighten things up, if not I change the gap and then tighten it back up. Touch the tires once in a while. Run your bare hand across the tread, in and out. If one way feels like it resists your hand the tire is wearing wrong. There should be no difference, Look at the tire from the front of the car in such a way as to see the gooves and the Lands (the raised portion between the grooves) If one side of a grove is higher than the other side your tire is not wearing right, both sides should be the same and all grooves should be very close to the same depth, these I do measure in 32nds, with a little tool most tire shops have for the purpose of measuring grooves and selling you tires and allignments.

[Bob Bidonde]

Toe Plates are much much easier to use then the sticks & chains.

[BillCNC]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I think those gages are very outdated, and WAY too troublesome. At the shop, we use 'Toe Plates' to set the toe-in measurement because it is super fast. (Google them.)

We carry a set in our race car trailer to use at the track, and many pro racing teams use them to set the alignment on their competition cars. They are THAT accurate.

Two tape measures?

In my lifetime of over 61 years, I have NEVER seen two tape measures that measure the same ... EVER. Close, but never equal due to how that are made.

Go to any store that sells tape measures and do a side-by-side test. You will be shocked at the what you will find. I have seen them as far as .250" off, but most are off by .125" or less which is far cry from the .032" needed to be measured.

If this system is used, one would have to shop in person for two tape measures that would be only "CLOSE" but not dead on.

Regards
Bill

[30Murray]

I found toe plates much easier to use, and accurate too when compared with a rod-type tool. You can see an example on how to use them as well as make your own for next to nothing in the following link. Oh, and I use two old slightly different Stanley tape measures that are virtually exactly equal in measurements. The important thing is to keep equal tension when measuring.

http://www.lionsgatemodelaclub.com/T...tech_tips.html

[Bill Z]

Originally Posted by 30Murray

I found toe plates much easier to use, and accurate too when compared with a rod-type tool. You can see an example on how to use them as well as make your own for next to nothing in the following link. Oh, and I use two old slightly different Stanley tape measures that are virtually exactly equal in measurements. The important thing is to keep equal tension when measuring.

http://www.lionsgatemodelaclub.com/T...tech_tips.html

With toe plates, you are using two separate measuring points, front and rear , while stationary. The accuracy of the toe measurement is wholly dependent on the condition of the wheels/tires. Any imperfection/bulge in the sidewall of the tire or bend/runout of the wheel will directly affect the results. The principle by which the Duby or spring gauge works is simple and repeatably accurate, while being unaffected by the condition of the wheels/tires. They are used only as a conveyance to move the gauge through the rotation of the hubs on their spindles and bearings from front to rear.

Respectfully,
Bill Z

[desotoguy]

Have been reading the post and trying to educate myself on toe in alignment. Thinking about the last car that I had aligned, the device on the wheels were at the center of the spindle. Considering the bar and the plates described, they appear to be below the spindle centerline, that being the case and considering the castor and camber angles associated with the front axle, will the devices actually produce the correct measurement?

[Bill Z]

Originally Posted by desotoguy

Have been reading the post and trying to educate myself on toe in alignment. Thinking about the last car that I had aligned, the device on the wheels were at the center of the spindle. Considering the bar and the plates described, they appear to be below the spindle centerline, that being the case and considering the castor and camber angles associated with the front axle, will the devices actually produce the correct measurement?

Yes, they will. Here’s a link that will be helpful.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Bill Z

With toe plates, you are using two separate measuring points, front and rear , while stationary. The accuracy of the toe measurement is wholly dependent on the condition of the wheels/tires. Any imperfection/bulge in the sidewall of the tire or bend/runout of the wheel will directly affect the results.
Respectfully,
Bill Z

The toe plates only touch the wheel so "Any imperfection/bulge in the sidewall of the tire" does not effect the use of the tool.

A bent wheel is going to effect the way the car handles no matter what method you use.

[Bill Z]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

The toe plates only touch the wheel so "Any imperfection/bulge in the sidewall of the tire" does not effect the use of the tool.

A bent wheel is going to effect the way the car handles no matter what method you use.

A lot of Model A wheels have some degree of runout, but are still very useable. Some of the plates in the links above have adjustable contact points to measure at the rim, although the plate pictured in post #38 seems to have no contacts points and is resting against the tire sidewall. The point is that any wheel runout can affect the accuracy of toe plates, even if they only touch the rim. This is not a factor when using a Duby spring gauge.

[The Master Cylinder]

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Originally Posted by Bill Z

A lot of Model A wheels have some degree of runout, but are still very useable. Some of the plates in the links above have adjustable contact points to measure at the rim, although the plate pictured in post #38 seems to have no contacts points and is resting against the tire sidewall. The point is that any wheel runout can affect the accuracy of toe plates, even if they only touch the rim. This is not a factor when using a Duby spring gauge.

The toe plate can not be used on a Model A as pictured in post #38, it will be resting on the spokes.

[Bill Z]

Originally Posted by The Master Cylinder

The toe plate can not be used on a Model A as pictured in post #38, it will be resting on the spokes.

True! 👍🏻

[aermotor]

Back to post 1 & 2. Thats the tool I am talking about. Other methods are obviously cheaper but are they as accurate or more accurate?

[BillCNC]

Wow, ... did not know they carried it. Heck of a price at $85.99 for me in the desert with 2-day free shipping. I just pulled the trigger on it.

https://www.autozone.com/shop-and-ga...uge/605705_0_0

Regards
Bill

[Dodge]

Thanks Brent. I'm tired of dragging those old Dunlop gauges around.....
Ordered a set of Toe Plates

[Afordman31]

This is the one I made. I use two straight pins pushed in the tread, set the pointer on the toe in fixture, push the car forward so the pins are on the front side of the tire, move the toe in fixture to the front of the tire and see the difference whether to toe in or toe out!

[Anteek29]

Originally Posted by Afordman31

This is the one I made. I use two straight pins pushed in the tread, set the pointer on the toe in fixture, push the car forward so the pins are on the front side of the tire, move the toe in fixture to the front of the tire and see the difference whether to toe in or toe out!

Looks very professional...impressive!