Valve Spring? and Oil Feed Holes?

[Hook]

I just started the process of removing the sludge in my engine by removing the Valve Cover. The pan in next, but I wanted to clean this first before moving on.

I have two questions. First the last valve is in the open position and the spring appears to be at an angle. I hope to attach a photo so you can tell me if this is "normal" when under pressure..

How many feed holes are there in the valve chamber area? I can see three large holes, front, middle and rear. Are there more? I have read previous posts that seem to indicate there are more smaller holes for the cam. I haven't touched the sludge yet as other postings warn not to do that until plugging the feed holes.

The engine seemed to run fine, but most everything else that was supposed to have been rebuilt was cobbled up. When I drained the oil for the first time, I had to poke a screw driver through the drain hole to get the oil to drain. I filled the engine with detergent oil, but have only driven it to storage last year, then to my new "man cave" a few weeks ago. So far some sludge in the valve chamber, but not as bad as I expected.

Thanks for any insight you can provide as I proceed.
Larry

[George Miller]

I say you got a mess. For one thing you have two kinds of valve springs. Some thing is wrong with the first spring or valve, retainer. It looks to me like any work that was done on the engine is questionable.

[tbirdtbird]

There are 5. Each main bearing accounts for 3 holes.
The front and rear cam brg account for 2 more.
The center cam bearing gets oil directly from the oil pump, so no worries there.

If this engine was supposedly rebuilt by someone, never go there again. It is loaded with bad crap that could destroy the bearings either directly or by flakes of sludge blocking the oiling system. This is the residue of years of using non-detergent oil, which is verboten. There are purists on this forum who love to trash my posts and rave about everything original and nothing more. They need only to look at your valve chamber to see why they are so wrong to use non-D oil. Remember there was no such thing as detergent oil in 1930

Be sure to pull the pan because the dipper tray and bottom of the pan will be loaded. Also, the screen around the oil pump will be partially clogged. Remove the pump and clean the screen well.

No amount of oil changes will clear out this destructive crud.

Use a large roofing nail or rolled up paper towel pieces or a bunch of pipe cleaners to plug the 5 holes while you clean this mess. Use brake cleaner and tedious wiping. And don't forget the roof of the valve chamber.

And get ready, because a purist/ wanna be mechanic will most assuredly trash what I have just said. Usually someone who doesn't know gasoline from Ovaltine

[PC/SR]

Maybe its me, but I count more coils on the #8 spring. Does the #7 spring "bend" when compressed?

[James Rogers]

Service bulletins list 2 different springs and state both are interchangeable and can be used together.

[Hook]

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Thanks for all the help. I'll look for the two "missing" feed holes today and clean the sludge out of the valve chamber after "plugging" the holes. I guess the valve springs are ok.
I hope to pull the pan today and get it cleaned out. It would be fun to finally drive the A.
Thanks again for the help and suggestions. I wasn't sure about spraying something down the holes, or what to use to clean the sludge up here.
Good stuff!

[Joe K]

It is possible for two different appearing springs to have a similar "spring rate." It's all a function of er, um, engineering.

If you're ever to the point where you disassemble this engine, you can and should check your spring rates. This can be done with a common bathroom scale and clamps, weights, press, etc. Or bring it to a shop with the appropriate equipment.

IIRC, somewhere on the 'net is someone's rant about springs being way "under-tensioned" and how they can and do relax in time? Supposed to be in the 60lb range for full compression, but actually found right off the dealer's shelf at like 38lbs?

But quality is not as good today in many ways compared to original Ford. And this even from the name brand manufacturers such as Federal-Mogul and others.

Joe K

[tbirdtbird]

the cam feed holes are very small. maybe use a small piece of wire or a probe and poke around a bit, they are prolly hidden by the sludge, being careful not to dislodge the sludge

[48fordnut]

Tbird ,where are the cam lube holes located? I cleaned my main supply line yesterday and found some sludge in it. This is the hole from the dist hole to the ft of the valve chamber. Electrical wire, brake cleaner, and rags got me clean.

[Jim Brierley]

very early engines had no oil holes for the cam. they are directly above the cam and are vertical, if it has them.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Hook,
Looks as if the rear spring is made of skinnier wire. I "think" that valve is a straight stem valve, the retainer appears different. You could compress that one & inspect the retainer & the 2 little split keepers, something is wrong with either the retainer or the keepers. "Maybe" one of the keepers fell out?? Poke around for it with a magnet.
Bill W.

[Hook]

Ok, I'll check the retainers and see what's going on with that spring. I assume since it's different at some point someone changed it out.

I have located all the feed holes, none were covered with sludge once I started looking. However, is this "opening" in the front of the valve chamber normal? It looks kind of crude and you can see the valve train gear through the hole.

I thought I'd wait to drop the pan until I know if that hole is supposed to be there.

Thanks again for all the advice! First time this deep into an engine.

Larry

[Tom Wesenberg]

That front hole is crude looking, but that's the way Ford did it, so it's nothing to worry about.

[Hook]

Thanks guys. On to the pan tomorrow.

[George Miller]

As cheap as valve springs are, I would not trust a engine builder that put to completely different valve springs in. It shows there is not attention to detail.
Any way there is a problem with at least that one valve spring, retainer keepers or valve stem. You should take a look at it.

[Hook]

Thanks George for the reply. I guess that means I have to pull the head in order to get the valve springs out and replaced. I don't know at what point I just bite the bullet and tear the engine out and take it to a rebuilder with the things I'm finding.
I dropped the pan today. About a half inch of sludge in the bottom of the pan, but "rust" as Tom W. showed in another thread. However, the baffle just dropped out of the pan when I turned it upside down, and the baffle is "warped" as it doesn't fit flat on my work bench. It also has a ding in it, but I don't know if any of that matters.
The oil pump didn't drop out when I removed the pan as it had a plug/bolt that was holding it in place. In the Les Andrews book he says that will produce more wear in the oil pump, so I'll clean that and see what I find.
The engine is late 1930, and the compression showed 60 in the front two cylinders and 50 in the back two.
Thanks again for the suggestions. I guess I'll do a more complete job expecting the lower end tomorrow and decide what to do next.

[tbirdtbird]

that compression is not all that bad really.

You do not need to pull the head to change the valve springs.

Your side cover is already off. You just need a valve spring compressor. The suppliers have them at a reasonable cost and most FLAPS have them for loaner. Some of the loaners won't fit a Model A, tho

You need to work carefully but it can be done; we do it all the time here.

In fact, getting the old springs out will make it that much easier to clean the valve chamber

[Tom Wesenberg]

You need to fix that dipper tray for a good tight fit to the pan, or call Bert's for a good used tray.

How many miles and how much time since this engine was "rebuilt"?

[Hook]

Thanks guys for the help. I'll order new springs and retainers and replace them so at least I know that's done.
I'll order a baffle from Bert's today and get that on the way.
I don't know how long ago the "rebuild" was done or who did it. I bought the PU from a guy who inherited it from his father, who was restoring it. Supposedly his father bought it from a guy in Ia who had started the restoration. With the amount of sludge I found in the pan, I don't think the rebuild was recent or done well with some of the other cobbled up stuff I've found.