The Ford Barn

Ricosan · 02-06-2022, 03:19 PM

I just bought a newly restored woody. The seller says the transmission has been newly rebuilt. Odometer reads 12 miles.
Problem is that it jumps out of 2nd gear upon acceleration. I can hold in but it takes considerable effort.
A friend of mine says he believes that upgraded gears were used in the build but the original top cap was installed. He says that by taking the top cap off so that we can see inside he can tell me what year top cap i will need.
Does this make sense?
Richard Duvall

Veeder · 02-06-2022, 03:31 PM

Don’t drive it anymore until you know what’s going on. Every time it slides out of gear you are damaging things

Zeke3 · 02-06-2022, 03:37 PM

I have not heard of the transmission jumping out of gear on acceleration before.
Yes, it does make sense that removing the top cover you should be able to identify which synchro and front fork are installed in the transmission. Take pictures and post them here if you need assistance with identification.

alanwoodieman · 02-06-2022, 03:42 PM

cluster gear with too much for/aft play will do this, also the shift fork may be the culprit, you do not say what year, but if it is before 39 and the syncronizer was 39 up and the wrong shift fork was used can also cause this

VeryTangled · 02-06-2022, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricosan

The seller says the transmission has been newly rebuilt... Problem is that it jumps out of 2nd gear upon acceleration. Does this make sense? Richard Duvall

I like Zeke's comments.

Nope. Jumping out of second gear happens on deceleration in my experience.

And it indicates a close inspection of tranny tolerances was in order.

Having the top off would allow some of those inspections.

Could be a few scenarios at play.

Driving it more is not going to give a good outcome either, so Veeder's advice is spot on.

aussie merc · 02-06-2022, 04:17 PM

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oh boy box out lid off and take a look rebuilt box ??? somethings not right box may be rebuilt but they just slapped the old top back on !seen it before ! week or worn detents
and shift rails wont help ME i would see if you can get the lid off without pulling the box could be reasonably easy to fix quite often the lid gets pulled off sat in the corner and put back on people forget that its so much more than a oil retainer

cas3 · 02-06-2022, 05:05 PM

Not running, shift into second gear, and take the cover off to see how far syncro sleeve is engaging the teeth on second gear. It should cover them completely.

HDowse · 02-06-2022, 05:37 PM

Check out Van Pelt Sales and purchase Mac's book on restoring these transmissions. The section on the gearshift top may be a big help. If your 2nd/high gear shifter fork is badly worn and the detent balls need replacing, Mac has all that in stock. I replaced those items and much more in my recent rebuild. Let us know what you find out.

Ricosan · 02-07-2022, 06:07 AM

Thanks guys. Will do. Hopefully i will get it off this afternoon and get some photos.
Richard

Mart · 02-07-2022, 07:46 AM

I was told by Bruce Lancaster (sorely missed ) that the throws on the later and earlier shift towers are different. Also if you use later gears with the improved synchro, while it is possible to hog out the 2/3 fork to go around the sleeve, the offset is wrong so it will not engage the gears correctly. It will over engage one and under engage the other. Don't know which way around though.

So take the top off and take some pictures of the gears, the shift tower and the forks.
Once we have seen those we might be able to make a judgement on what is going on.

Mart.

Tim Ayers · 02-07-2022, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mart

I was told by Bruce Lancaster (sorely missed ) that the throws on the later and earlier shift towers are different. Also if you use later gears with the improved synchro, while it is possible to hog out the 2/3 fork to go around the sleeve, the offset is wrong so it will not engage the gears correctly. It will over engage one and under engage the other. Don't know which way around though.

So take the top off and take some pictures of the gears, the shift tower and the forks.
Once we have seen those we might be able to make a judgement on what is going on.

Mart.

I came to post the same. I'm pretty sure an early top will not just plop on to an later gear set. You'd have to substantially bend/rework the forks in order to get it to work.

joe 1950 · 02-07-2022, 09:38 AM

This was a common problem back in the day when these cars were used for stock cars they would take a strap or wire and put it on the dashboard so the driver could slide it over the shifter rod to hold it in second gear because that’s all they usually used was second gear work with Van Pelt he’s the master on these good luck

Tim Ayers · 02-07-2022, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joe 1950

This was a common problem back in the day when these cars were used for stock cars they would take a strap or wire and put it on the dashboard so the driver could slide it over the shifter rod to hold it in second gear because that’s all they usually used was second gear work with Van Pelt he’s the master on these good luck

Joe,

Very common to jump out of 2nd gear while de-accelerating, which is why dirt tracking did as when went into the corner.

This is the first I've heard of it jumping out while accelerating.

danliveshere · 02-08-2022, 06:56 AM

From memory I was speaking to someone years ago who had bought a car with this problem and it turned out the 2nd gear fork was not engaging the gear all the way into the correct position but I can’t remember what he did to correct the issue

Ricosan · 02-08-2022, 07:21 AM

I’ve taken the top cover off of the transmission and have some good photographs but I can’t upload them because the file is so big. I will reduce them this afternoon and try posting again.
Richard

Juergen · 02-08-2022, 08:57 AM

You haven't mentioned the type of trans. Is it an early style with a synchro that looks like a donut with the slot in the center or a later style with a synchro looking like a hockey puck with a slot in the rear?

I once looked at a "rebuilt" later style trans that jumped out on acceleration. The rebuilder forgot to install the 7069 spacer.

JM 35 Sedan · 02-08-2022, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mart

I was told by Bruce Lancaster (sorely missed ) that the throws on the later and earlier shift towers are different. Also if you use later gears with the improved synchro, while it is possible to hog out the 2/3 fork to go around the sleeve, the offset is wrong so it will not engage the gears correctly. It will over engage one and under engage the other. Don't know which way around though.

So take the top off and take some pictures of the gears, the shift tower and the forks.
Once we have seen those we might be able to make a judgement on what is going on.

Mart.

Mart, this is my thinking as well. If the transmission was converted to the later '39-'48 gears, and the earlier shifter top was used by widening the 2/3 shift fork, it will not fully engage the gears, causing the problem the op is experiencing.

PS....I also dearly miss Bruce Lancaster. He was so knowledgeable on these early Ford's.

Ricosan · 02-08-2022, 03:52 PM

Here are a few photos of the shifting fork and the inside of the transmission. I think I may see the problem.

JM 35 Sedan · 02-08-2022, 05:21 PM

That is a '35 or earlier gear set based on the straight cut first/reverse gears and the second/third shift collar. I'd need to see a side profile picture of the shifter top to see which year that may be, but I believe it's the slant back shifter tower used on '35 and earlier transmissions. The shift forks look correct to me for that gear set, but I can't see if they are worn or possibly bent. It's also possible that the shifter top was not installed correctly, and forks may not have been in their correct location relative to the slots on second/third collar and first/reverse sliding gear.

Zeke3 · 02-08-2022, 05:47 PM

The gap looks too large between 2nd gear and the synchronizer. I have been looking at Mac's book and can't figure out what may be causing the issue. It looks to me to be the angle back shift cover, 40-7222, and the early synchronizer, so those should be compatible. I don't know how it could have been put together with that large of a gap and not be bound up tight.

I think it is going to have to come out for disassembly to resolve. Let's see what Mac says.

02-06-2022, 03:19 PM	#1
Ricosan Senior Member Join Date: May 2018 Location: Tallahassee Posts: 375	Jumps out of 2nd gear I just bought a newly restored woody. The seller says the transmission has been newly rebuilt. Odometer reads 12 miles. Problem is that it jumps out of 2nd gear upon acceleration. I can hold in but it takes considerable effort. A friend of mine says he believes that upgraded gears were used in the build but the original top cap was installed. He says that by taking the top cap off so that we can see inside he can tell me what year top cap i will need. Does this make sense? Richard Duvall

02-06-2022, 03:31 PM	#2
Veeder Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: CT Posts: 394	Re: Jumps out of 2nd gear Don’t drive it anymore until you know what’s going on. Every time it slides out of gear you are damaging things

02-06-2022, 03:37 PM	#3
Zeke3 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Columbus, IN Posts: 1,407	Re: Jumps out of 2nd gear I have not heard of the transmission jumping out of gear on acceleration before. Yes, it does make sense that removing the top cover you should be able to identify which synchro and front fork are installed in the transmission. Take pictures and post them here if you need assistance with identification.

02-06-2022, 03:42 PM	#4
alanwoodieman Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: upstate SC Posts: 2,963	Re: Jumps out of 2nd gear cluster gear with too much for/aft play will do this, also the shift fork may be the culprit, you do not say what year, but if it is before 39 and the syncronizer was 39 up and the wrong shift fork was used can also cause this

02-06-2022, 04:17 PM	#6
aussie merc Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: sydney australia Posts: 1,033	Re: Jumps out of 2nd gear Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) oh boy box out lid off and take a look rebuilt box ??? somethings not right box may be rebuilt but they just slapped the old top back on !seen it before ! week or worn detents and shift rails wont help ME i would see if you can get the lid off without pulling the box could be reasonably easy to fix quite often the lid gets pulled off sat in the corner and put back on people forget that its so much more than a oil retainer

02-06-2022, 05:05 PM	#7
cas3 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: sw minnesota Posts: 4,574	Re: Jumps out of 2nd gear Not running, shift into second gear, and take the cover off to see how far syncro sleeve is engaging the teeth on second gear. It should cover them completely.

02-06-2022, 05:37 PM	#8
HDowse Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Hancock, New Hampshire Posts: 375	Re: Jumps out of 2nd gear Check out Van Pelt Sales and purchase Mac's book on restoring these transmissions. The section on the gearshift top may be a big help. If your 2nd/high gear shifter fork is badly worn and the detent balls need replacing, Mac has all that in stock. I replaced those items and much more in my recent rebuild. Let us know what you find out.

02-07-2022, 06:07 AM	#9
Ricosan Senior Member Join Date: May 2018 Location: Tallahassee Posts: 375	Re: Jumps out of 2nd gear Thanks guys. Will do. Hopefully i will get it off this afternoon and get some photos. Richard

02-07-2022, 07:46 AM	#10
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,754	Re: Jumps out of 2nd gear I was told by Bruce Lancaster (sorely missed ) that the throws on the later and earlier shift towers are different. Also if you use later gears with the improved synchro, while it is possible to hog out the 2/3 fork to go around the sleeve, the offset is wrong so it will not engage the gears correctly. It will over engage one and under engage the other. Don't know which way around though. So take the top off and take some pictures of the gears, the shift tower and the forks. Once we have seen those we might be able to make a judgement on what is going on. Mart.

02-07-2022, 09:38 AM	#12
joe 1950 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Green Bay Wi Posts: 400	Re: Jumps out of 2nd gear This was a common problem back in the day when these cars were used for stock cars they would take a strap or wire and put it on the dashboard so the driver could slide it over the shifter rod to hold it in second gear because that’s all they usually used was second gear work with Van Pelt he’s the master on these good luck

02-08-2022, 06:56 AM	#14
danliveshere Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Cairns , Australia Posts: 746	Re: Jumps out of 2nd gear From memory I was speaking to someone years ago who had bought a car with this problem and it turned out the 2nd gear fork was not engaging the gear all the way into the correct position but I can’t remember what he did to correct the issue

02-08-2022, 07:21 AM	#15
Ricosan Senior Member Join Date: May 2018 Location: Tallahassee Posts: 375	Re: Jumps out of 2nd gear I’ve taken the top cover off of the transmission and have some good photographs but I can’t upload them because the file is so big. I will reduce them this afternoon and try posting again. Richard

02-08-2022, 08:57 AM	#16
Juergen Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 503	Re: Jumps out of 2nd gear You haven't mentioned the type of trans. Is it an early style with a synchro that looks like a donut with the slot in the center or a later style with a synchro looking like a hockey puck with a slot in the rear? I once looked at a "rebuilt" later style trans that jumped out on acceleration. The rebuilder forgot to install the 7069 spacer.

02-08-2022, 05:21 PM	#19
JM 35 Sedan Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland Posts: 10,858	Re: Jumps out of 2nd gear That is a '35 or earlier gear set based on the straight cut first/reverse gears and the second/third shift collar. I'd need to see a side profile picture of the shifter top to see which year that may be, but I believe it's the slant back shifter tower used on '35 and earlier transmissions. The shift forks look correct to me for that gear set, but I can't see if they are worn or possibly bent. It's also possible that the shifter top was not installed correctly, and forks may not have been in their correct location relative to the slots on second/third collar and first/reverse sliding gear. __________________ *John* *"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein* Last edited by JM 35 Sedan; 02-08-2022 at 05:50 PM.

02-08-2022, 05:47 PM	#20
Zeke3 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Columbus, IN Posts: 1,407	Re: Jumps out of 2nd gear The gap looks too large between 2nd gear and the synchronizer. I have been looking at Mac's book and can't figure out what may be causing the issue. It looks to me to be the angle back shift cover, 40-7222, and the early synchronizer, so those should be compatible. I don't know how it could have been put together with that large of a gap and not be bound up tight. I think it is going to have to come out for disassembly to resolve. Let's see what Mac says.