Blue Ribbon Restorations

[Incognito-A]

Anyone here currently working on a high point Blue Ribbon project?

Excluding restoration shops, please. I know there are pro restorers here.

If so, what? Please share.

[nkaminar]

Not "here" and a pro, but B. Terry seems to know what he is doing and is probably working on a Blue Ribbon project. I know he is backed up for several months if not a year. See https://www.model-a-ford.com/index.shtml. Tennessee is a great place to visit.

I know this does not really answer your question.

[Gary Karr]

Yes, I'm working currently working on one for judging next summer although I'd rather not mention what it is and for whom.

[CWPASADENA]

I am also currently working on one.

Chris W.

[Incognito-A]

Originally Posted by CWPASADENA

I am also currently working on one.

Chris W.

Chris, what are you working on? How far along is it?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Originally Posted by Incognito-A

Anyone here currently working on a high point Blue Ribbon project?

Excluding restoration shops, please. I know there are pro restorers here.

If so, what? Please share.

Well, that isn’t very nice!!

Believe this or not, we only have 1 Model-A (-out of 16) in the shop right now being restored as a Fine-point vehicle. F/P restorations are not profitable for us. Instead, what most of our customers want is a car that is truly ‘restored’ or returned to a condition that is equal to, -or better than when it was new. It has been my experiences that most Model-As that are claimed to be fully restored in reality are not completely restored.

[Greg Jones]

I don't know about blue-ribbon restoration, but I hope the 68B I am working on at least wins a participation trophy. What a challenge!!

[Stretch Cab]

Greg, a "Participation Trophy" isn't that kind of like a "Best of Show(ing up)" trophy?

[aermotor]

I quit on top restorations of all projects cars, airplanes, boats etc. Doesn't matter if I get top prize or not one time, there is always some one that is going to top it. Two foot show is now good enough for me and always gets complements and lively discussions , which in my opinion it's what the hobby is all about - making like minded lasting friends. I have no interest in "bought" restorations. Do not have the big dollars for them. In must all cases I have soloed my projects and proud of my accomplishments and enjoy the research to get it "right". No disasters yet.

John

[77Birdman]

Curious as to the intent of the original post. Is the OP working on one? I do understand the comment excluding pro's, no offense to any of those present I'm sure. I am in the final stages myself (not an A) and have done a couple before. I for one think that a 'home restored' car can be as nice as a pro restored car. In fact I have seen some pro restored cars that were inferior to home restored. I know from my experience I will get caught up in the minutiae and spend way too much time on something that may never be seen again. These kind of things for the better or worse may be overlooked by a shop not wanting to spend 4 hrs to make sure a bolt looks right. The down side is I have 4 yrs and counting on my current project and with a couple more on the horizon I only hope I live long enough to complete things. My comments are by no means trying to put down a pro shop. I respect anyone in that business, or any service business. Just saying that the average guy can achieve great results at home. Its also about knowing the right people that may be needed to do specialized services.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Greg Jones

I don't know about blue-ribbon restoration, but I hope the 68B I am working on at least wins a participation trophy. What a challenge!!

Originally Posted by Stretch Cab

Greg, a "Participation Trophy" isn't that kind of like a "Best of Show(ing up)" trophy?

To begin with, this is getting WAY skewed IMHO as most people have no idea what Fine-Point restoration is even about, ...much less what restoring a (any) car to that level entails.

To begin with, at a MARC/MAFCA meet, you must have the minimum of 14 items to even be considered for F/P adjudication. Most cars that attend a MARC/MAFCA National event cannot even qualify. Therefore to imply that if someone shows-up they will receive a trophy is kind of a slap in the face. If the vehicle does pass the minimum standards in the preliminary judging, then it is awarded a white ribbon. As stated above, only 5% or less of all the vehicles registered for the meet can even meet these qualifications.


Secondly, as a veteran in restoring a Model-A to F/P status, there is WAY more to restoring a vehicle accurately & authentically than just to make it look pretty. Most F/P participants did not restore their vehicle to win an award. They did it because they pushed themselves to produce excellence. From my experiences, most people who work on Model-As do not have the stamina, determination, and/or the ability to actually 'restore' authentically. It is the challenge in replicating something in exacting detail, -and pushing oneself to learn new things about the craft that drives most F/P restorers to do so. Ironically, most F/P restorers do not get upset if they do not win top-prize as they typically take the mindset to go home and make necessary changes to better their vehicle. Personally, where I have been most upset with F/P judging has been when the Adjudicator made an inaccurate or incorrect deduction on something that I knew was correct.

For each of us here, we should never be critical of someone else's accomplishment & craftsmanship when that Restorer's results exceeded our own capabilities. This probably should even include ridiculing those Restorers who choose to restore a Model-A to that level. I personally applaud anyone's efforts that want to restore correctly, ...even if their accomplishments are better than what I can produce.

[alexiskai]

I think F/P restoration is best understood as a contest between the restorer and entropy. To win top points, you have to erase, individually and by hand, the effects of 90+ years of weathering, poor maintenance, bad luck, etc. The restorer presents an object precisely as it existed at the moment it was constructed, despite us knowing that an entire lifetime has elapsed since that moment. There aren't many other objects in the world you can say that about. It's one of the things I like about gold artifacts in museums – you can look at it and know that it looks exactly the way it did when somebody put it in a tomb or whatever.

[Oldbluoval]

Agreed with Brent on those challenged by FP judging. It takes perseverance, hard work and $$$ to build a fine point car. Been there, done that once. I just don’t have the temperament or patience to argue whether a screw should be natural, raven or cadmium!
The problem is mine; FP is a challenge and good for those so turned. The JS standards committee should be thanked for the research and time put into the standards. For those so challenged ….go get’em!!

[Incognito-A]

The intent of the OP was simply to find out if any individuals on here are currently doing FP restorations and what models.

It seems like the last big wave of spectacular restorations happened in the Mid-late 1990s. That’s not to say there hasn’t been some spectacular restorations since then, most certainly there have been. I’m postulating that in the 1990s there were more individuals doing more FP cars than at other times.

Unfortunately a number of those individuals have left the hobby or passed on.

[alexiskai]

What I've heard from some folks is that it got significantly more expensive to compete in F/P in the last two decades, for a number of reasons:

• skilled labor costs up
• JS more refined, detailed in the newer revs
• suitable parts harder to find, more expensive

Just second-hand info though.

[Greg Jones]

Sorry if I "skewed" the conversation with my "tongue-in-cheek" comment about restoration of my 68B. No slaps in any faces intended. In fact, I do understand fine point restoration, having been involved in the restorations of other marquee autos, i.e., Packards, Cadillacs, etc. I greatly admire those who do fine point restoration. My experience has been that to obtain that "nth" degree of excellence, the effort and cost rises exponentially. It takes great skill, determination, and perseverance (not to mention research) to get a fine-point complete. My hats off to those who do.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Incognito-A

The intent of the OP was simply to find out if any individuals on here are currently doing FP restorations and what models.

It seems like the last big wave of spectacular restorations happened in the Mid-late 1990s. That’s not to say there hasn’t been some spectacular restorations since then, most certainly there have been. I’m postulating that in the 1990s there were more individuals doing more FP cars than at other times.

Unfortunately a number of those individuals have left the hobby or passed on.

Again, there are many very accurate, -and very authentic restorations of Model-As that would have scored well in Fine-point adjudication yet are never evaluated in a competition. Therefore there are more being restored than you think. Unfortunately the DIY Craftsmen in this hobby are falling and not being replaced simply because many Model-A owners do not possess the skillset nor the time to do the vehicle themselves. Hence there are restoration shops that have a long line of people waiting to get their project in.

Originally Posted by alexiskai

What I've heard from some folks is that it got significantly more expensive to compete in F/P in the last two decades, for a number of reasons:

• skilled labor costs up
• JS more refined, detailed in the newer revs
• suitable parts harder to find, more expensive

Just second-hand info though.

Colin, while I see your point, I do not find it as accurate as you might believe. Using Gary Karr and others as an example, ...Gary has taken the time to educate himself on the differences of components. Using a tire valve stem as an example, he has studied the differences between what was used (-and not used) on Model-As, and with that knowledge he scrounges swap meets looking for unrestored items that he needs for the restoration. He might find one single valve stem in a box at a swap meet for $1.00. He purchases it, -and then others that he finds until he can make-up a set to restore. He will then do much of the prep work on each of the stems before sending them to a plater to be correctly plated. When his capitol expenses are all added up for purchase, plating, etc. he then may have $100.00 in a set that others will pay $500.00-$750.00 a set for. Gary can also subsidize his costs by restoring 10 valve stems and then selling the other set to someone who does not wish to go thru the learning process. Now use this mindset throughout the entire project, and you quickly see how this does not need to be an expensive endeavor. The reason it becomes expensive is when hobbyists choose to have the work done for them.

Also, suitable parts are more than easy to come by for most restorations and do not need to cost vast amounts of money. It is when the restorer who takes the easier road chooses to spend large sums for a NOS item in lieu of actually restoring what they have.

And, in reality the only thing the later RG&JS revisions have done is to make questionable calls on subcomponents more defined. The answer was always at the Research Center, but 'one always had to go research it on their own to get a definitive answer.

[Oldbluoval]

This site is notorious for “subject drift” and I suppose I contributed to such….
Regrets!!

[Incognito-A]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Again, there are many very accurate, -and very authentic restorations of Model-As that would have scored well in Fine-point adjudication yet are never evaluated in a competition. Therefore there are more being restored than you think.

Absolutely! And I was hoping some would post here. So far only Gary’s mystery car and one other (besides Brent.)

[Oldbluoval]

Mine was a 31 slant ws town sedan.
I later sold the car and it got front page photo on either News or Restorer many years back.
I did not own that car at the time. It’s up east somewhere as it changed hands several times after I sold it. When I got the car out of NM, it had worn out leather interior. Not knowing better, and it was far from useable, I jerked it out. Later found out that was a rare late option!!
Editorial..the 31 SW sedan is the best A Henry built!!