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Old 09-12-2013, 10:19 PM   #21
SeaSlugs
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Default Re: Vibration - what is normal?

even my modern cars mirrors vibrate at certian RPM's its just those harmonic vibrations that reverberate just right with the car...chevettes rear view is useless at the lower rpm's, s10's side mirrors cant see anything when your going above 45...
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Old 09-13-2013, 09:14 AM   #22
B_man_Al
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Default Re: Vibration - what is normal?

Brent ...

Very interesting post you did on engine components! Raises more questions for me:

1- Do these numbers apply to a model B engine .. probably not I suspect?

2- Do the piston numbers include rings?

3- Any idea how much weight is added for oversize pistons, or are they compensated for by reduced material during casting/machining?

4-Do you know the weight of the original wrist pins?

Thanks in advance
Al
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:35 AM   #23
marc hildebrant
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Default Re: Vibration - what is normal?

Brent,

Thanks for the information regarding the tolerances on the engine/drive train.

If I had my engine at your shop, could you hold the same tolerances as when the Model A was built ?

Marc
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Old 09-13-2013, 02:09 PM   #24
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Default Re: Vibration - what is normal?

It sounds like vibrations will depend on how much money you want to invest in redoing your engine or how much was invested before you got it. I know my huckster vibrates more that my 29 coupe but both of them do vibrate.
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:13 PM   #25
Bruce,Upstate NY
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Default Re: Vibration - what is normal?

My lowest original mileage A (32,000 mi) had the smoothest engine I've ever had, including my two rebuilt engines balanced and counterbalanced by reputable builders in recent years. Any comments, rebuilders?
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Old 09-14-2013, 07:17 AM   #26
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Default Re: Vibration - what is normal?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by B_man_Al View Post
Brent ...

Very interesting post you did on engine components! Raises more questions for me:

1- Do these numbers apply to a model B engine .. probably not I suspect?

2- Do the piston numbers include rings?

3- Any idea how much weight is added for oversize pistons, or are they compensated for by reduced material during casting/machining?

4-Do you know the weight of the original wrist pins?

Thanks in advance
Al
A pistons are the same as B pistons, the original Ford pistons I have --about 30 ALL weight within 5 grams---no matter what size, and my original piston collection goes from std to .060, the set in the box was within 1 gram, I had 2 sets of B rods in the box, they weighed within 1/2 gram--including each end and total, I recently got a boxed set of V8 rods ---they all weighed the same, perhaps the scale has a 1/4 gram tolerance.

Through the years I have tried getting crankshafts ground at 4 places---in addition to the place that originally did my engine, several of the places had this for an answer when I questioned their work (.004-.008 off center)--- "It's just an old car, it won't matter"

as for wristpins and rings ---rings pretty much are the same weight, original ones that I have weighed weight the same for the same type, aftermarket ones can be anywhere
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Old 09-14-2013, 09:18 AM   #27
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Default Re: Vibration - what is normal?

I didn't understand it all, but I agree with Brent about unfelt torsional vibrations. For many years I ran a vibration dampener on my A, and any felt difference had to be imagined. It was a repro of one designed by Ed Winfield and sold by the outfit in Rosemead, CA with NO claim that you would feel a difference. I always just hoped that my crankshaft would feel the difference.

Steve
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Old 09-14-2013, 01:07 PM   #28
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Default Re: Vibration - what is normal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve s View Post
I didn't understand it all, but I agree with Brent about unfelt torsional vibrations. For many years I ran a vibration dampener on my A, and any felt difference had to be imagined. It was a repro of one designed by Ed Winfield and sold by the outfit in Rosemead, CA with NO claim that you would feel a difference. I always just hoped that my crankshaft would feel the difference.

Steve
The best way to tell if a damper is working is to feel it after a prolonged drive at cruising speed. If it is warm it is working.
Mike K has the best graphic illustration of torsional vibration I have seen yet. It has been posted on here several times previously.
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Old 09-14-2013, 04:52 PM   #29
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Default Re: Vibration - what is normal?

As for mirror vibration, If the motor mounts are too tight it will increase vibration. Tightness of rear float-A-motor mounts can be experimented with. The float-A-motor rear rubber biscuits or pads harden with age and need to be replaced periodicly. The castilated nut under the front motor mount yoke only needs to be tightened enough to get the cotter pin in place. Most if not all model A's will have some mirror vibration, these mount adjustments can sometimes cause less vibration.
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Old 09-14-2013, 06:09 PM   #30
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Default Re: Vibration - what is normal?

Quote:
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The best way to tell if a damper is working is to feel it after a prolonged drive at cruising speed. If it is warm it is working. ... .
Pete,
Apparently, after a prolonged drive at cruising speed, EVERYTHING under my hood is "working."
Steve
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Old 08-21-2021, 08:10 PM   #31
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Default Re: Vibration - what is normal?

Could I have "torsional Vibration"? My '30 phaeton runs smooth as silk under power. Then on deceleration it really gives me a foot massage. Up to 25 mph it is almost unnoticeable. Then at 30-35 it's bad but at 40 and up I really don't want to decelerate without disingaging the the clutch.
I purchased the engine from a Model A club guy that said it was put together by a local reputable rebuilder (now deceased).

None of the threads I've read discribes the bad "hum" type vibration on deceleration only. What do you think?
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Old 08-22-2021, 06:43 AM   #32
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Default Re: Vibration - what is normal?

Warning: Technical discussion


No reciprocating engine can be perfectly balanced. I am not talking about making all the pistons and rods the same weights. When at TDC or BDC the pistons, rings, pin, and rod are all reversing direction and a counter weight on the crankshaft would have to counter the inertia of all these parts. When the crankshaft is at 90 degrees (approximately) from TDC or BDC the counter weight on the crankshaft only has to balance the bottom end of the rod. Two different counter weights. So the counter weights are a compromise and designed to balance 100% of the bottom end of the rod and about 70% of the rest of the parts. So the engine is never 100% balanced. As Brent talked about, lighter pistons and pins will help.

The original crankshaft on the Model A does not have any counter weights. This will set up a vibration at higher rpm in addition to what I described above. Crankshafts are available for the Model A that have the counter weights.

As Brent talked about, whether the crankshaft has counterweights or not, it is important to have all the parts weigh the same and have the crankshaft, flywheel, etc. dynamically balanced.


Actually, there is a way to have a reciprocating engine perfectly balanced and I know how to do that but it is not a practical solution.
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Old 08-22-2021, 11:17 AM   #33
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Default Re: Vibration - what is normal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubadon40 View Post
Could I have "torsional Vibration"? My '30 phaeton runs smooth as silk under power. Then on deceleration it really gives me a foot massage. Up to 25 mph it is almost unnoticeable. Then at 30-35 it's bad but at 40 and up I really don't want to decelerate without disingaging the the clutch.
I purchased the engine from a Model A club guy that said it was put together by a local reputable rebuilder (now deceased).

None of the threads I've read discribes the bad "hum" type vibration on deceleration only. What do you think?
Try retarding the spark when decelerating.
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Old 08-22-2021, 04:02 PM   #34
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Default Re: Vibration - what is normal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubadon40 View Post
Could I have "torsional Vibration"? My '30 phaeton runs smooth as silk under power. Then on deceleration it really gives me a foot massage. Up to 25 mph it is almost unnoticeable. Then at 30-35 it's bad but at 40 and up I really don't want to decelerate without disingaging the the clutch.
What do you think?
My car seems to do that but it is smooth and quiet running along. It was balanced when it was rebuilt to 1/2 gram and the clutch assembly was balanced at Edelbrock. It runs real nice and likes to cruise at 50. I have a Brumfield 6-1 head and figured it was compression and body harmonics so not worried at all.
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Old 08-22-2021, 11:10 PM   #35
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Default Re: Vibration - what is normal?

Mine has a vibration around 38-42 mph. My crankshaft is also not counterweighted which would help. I seem to recall reading a few threads where 40 mph is the magic speed for engine vibration to occur in an engine which is not counterweighted.
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Old 08-22-2021, 11:51 PM   #36
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Default Re: Vibration - what is normal?

By adding or subtracting weight to the crank assembly you can move the peak vibration frequency around but you can't get rid of it without redesigning the engine.
Remember, the amount of vibration is inversely proportional to the rigidity of the mounts.
If you had a 10000 lb. model A with rigid motor mounts, you probably would not feel any vibration.
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