The Ford Barn

Conaway2 · 03-16-2020, 03:58 PM

Years ago, I remember reading somewhere that the engineer who designed the A engine did so in a remarkably short time, and when a prototype Model A with the new engine was taken on a test drive in 1927, it outran every other vehicle on the road. I cannot remember where I found this, or who the engine designer was....can anyone help me with this information ?

Thanks - Jim

CA Victoria · 03-16-2020, 04:34 PM

Briefly, I am doing an article for our newsletter. As I understand:

Edsel, Sørensen, and Sheldrick begin designing a new motor, with many improvements from the Model T engine. When they were unable to obtain the goal of a 40 hp engine Henry Ford brought in Harold Hicks from his Tri-Motor project to help. With a three week deadline intake, exhaust, and water jacket modifications yielded the 40 hp.

I have found some discrepancies with credits for certain achievements. I have a copy of Sorensen’s biography on order which may add to or further confuse me!

Conaway2 · 03-16-2020, 04:55 PM

Tim - thank you ! This is the info I was looking for.

Jim

johnneilson · 03-16-2020, 05:05 PM

I also understand that Harold Hicks was partially responsible for the safety glass windshield. As in, he was injured pretty severally when in an accident, and result was the safety glass.

He also had a comment about the crankshaft in the "A" but was not successful in convincing the establishment.

J

ryanheacox · 03-16-2020, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnneilson

I also understand that Harold Hicks was partially responsible for the safety glass windshield. As in, he was injured pretty severally when in an accident, and result was the safety glass.

He also had a comment about the crankshaft in the "A" but was not successful in convincing the establishment.

J

What was that comment?

Flathead · 03-16-2020, 05:45 PM

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M2M · 03-16-2020, 07:04 PM

Two Hungarians are responsible for the T engine. Russians claim the B engine as their love child.

It's possible that Americans are behind the A engine.

Jack Shaft · 03-16-2020, 07:35 PM

During Hicks 's remarkable achievements upping the horsepower from 22 to 40 he also told Ford what every other engineer was afraid to say..Farkas,Sheldrick,no one wanted to tell Ford there was a main bearing issue..Hicks did,and fell out of favor,and was gone by '36..if you want to learn more,read the oral histories..farkas,hicks in their own words..

https://cdm15889.contentdm.oclc.org/...on/p15889coll2

click on 'digitized oral histories',its highlighted..and be ready to spend hours,fascinating first hand ford history from the guys who made it..

Conaway2 · 03-16-2020, 07:53 PM

thanks for all the comments ! I’m writing a column for our April newsletter (Low Country Model A’s) and am very interested in the history of Model A development.
JIm

johnneilson · 03-16-2020, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanheacox

What was that comment?

Don't hold me to this verbatim, Hicks noticed the center main was pounding pretty hard and recommended increasing the diameter.
The response was that the crank should remain limber to follow the bores in the block. Right or wrong, they made just a few Model A's.

John

Jack Shaft · 03-16-2020, 08:39 PM

That ultimately got Hicks out of Ford.the engineers wanted to make the crankshaft journals larger and lighten the flywheel..they ultimately won the battle in '32 with the B engine. Hick's called it a main bearing 'thump'

Jim/GA · 03-16-2020, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CA Victoria

Briefly, I am doing an article for our newsletter. As I understand:

Edsel, Sørensen, and Sheldrick begin designing a new motor, with many improvements from the Model T engine. When they were unable to obtain the goal of a 40 hp engine Henry Ford brought in Harold Hicks from his Tri-Motor project to help. With a three week deadline intake, exhaust, and water jacket modifications yielded the 40 hp.

I have found some discrepancies with credits for certain achievements. I have a copy of Sorensen’s biography on order which may add to or further confuse me!

One of the other things that Hicks did to get the 40 HP was bring in the carburetor people from Zenith to improve fuel delivery to the engine. Hicks had worked with Zenith on the engines for the trimotor, so knew their work. Some of the Zenith carb jet holes are tapped with a 5 mm 75 pitch metric thread because Zenith was a French company.

CA Victoria · 03-16-2020, 10:32 PM

Very informative.
While Sørensen wrote a biography other information about these men are contained in bits and pieces within various stories. If there are any good reads please post your sources.
Thanks y’all, love the Barn!

CA Victoria · 03-16-2020, 10:35 PM

There is also a story of Edsel and Sheldrik designing a 6 cylinder engine.......until Henry found out. Can you imagine Henry’s Lady with a “6”.........

Jack Shaft · 03-16-2020, 10:51 PM

It should have had the X 8,engineering spent over five years developing that engine.The four cylinder was a 'default' engine,underpowered from introduction if the X8had panned out things would have been different..even a six would have gave them more of a chance to recoup the money they spent developing the A..financially the A was a failure

Pete · 03-16-2020, 11:02 PM

The model A was named after the designer, George Modela. He did it on a napkin while drinking cheap booze in a speakeasy.

Synchro909 · 03-17-2020, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim/GA

One of the other things that Hicks did to get the 40 HP was bring in the carburetor people from Zenith to improve fuel delivery to the engine. Hicks had worked with Zenith on the engines for the trimotor, so knew their work. Some of the Zenith carb jet holes are tapped with a 5 mm 75 pitch metric thread because Zenith was a French company.

5 mm X .75 is an oddball thread. Standard M5 is 0.8mm pitch and metric fine doesn't go that small but a 5mm fine has been created after market with a 0.5mm pitch.
Gotta wonder how they came to settle on a 5 X 0.75 thread. Also gotta wonder where you'd buy a tap or die that size.

Bruce of MN · 03-17-2020, 06:04 AM

I believe that the French had a number of oddball sizes and the metric world didn't get as uniform as they are now until after WW2.

Jack Shaft · 03-17-2020, 07:46 AM

Awarding the contract to Zenith is interesting,although they provided what Hicks needed for horsepower development they didn't have the manufacturing capacity to meet ford's demand. Holley had the capacity and filled the void when Zenith fell behind,that is fact.
Rumor has it Ford and George Holley did not get along..even though they were neighbors.So Zenith won the award,couldn't meet,but was allowed the time to increase capacity while Holley pitched in to meet demand...rare stuff in the harsh world of subcontracting to Ford.

Jack Shaft · 03-17-2020, 08:03 AM

https://cdm15889.contentdm.oclc.org/...9coll2/id/7759

https://cdm15889.contentdm.oclc.org/...9coll2/id/6468

Pictured is Eugene Farkas,linked is the oral histories of Farkas and Hicks..Farkas was one of Fords favorites,a true experimental engineer,as opposed to Sheldrick,who was more of an executive engineer. Farkas's work on the model a was like being a fireman,he went to the fires..one was the front brakes,where he designed the front brake wedge,which gave them fits..he also was on X8 development and was working on a fully automatic transmission using cone clutches when the A development was launched.
Below is the final blueprint for the front brake wedge..a little off topic,but it does speak to the effort involved in design in 1927..it was tough being an engineer at Ford that year..

03-16-2020, 03:58 PM	#1
Conaway2 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Mt. Pleasant, SC Posts: 601	Who designed the Model A engine ? Years ago, I remember reading somewhere that the engineer who designed the A engine did so in a remarkably short time, and when a prototype Model A with the new engine was taken on a test drive in 1927, it outran every other vehicle on the road. I cannot remember where I found this, or who the engine designer was....can anyone help me with this information ? Thanks - Jim

03-16-2020, 04:34 PM	#2
CA Victoria Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 2,113	Re: Who designed the Model A engine ? Briefly, I am doing an article for our newsletter. As I understand: Edsel, Sørensen, and Sheldrick begin designing a new motor, with many improvements from the Model T engine. When they were unable to obtain the goal of a 40 hp engine Henry Ford brought in Harold Hicks from his Tri-Motor project to help. With a three week deadline intake, exhaust, and water jacket modifications yielded the 40 hp. I have found some discrepancies with credits for certain achievements. I have a copy of Sorensen’s biography on order which may add to or further confuse me! __________________ Tim Downtown, Ca

03-16-2020, 04:55 PM	#3
Conaway2 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Mt. Pleasant, SC Posts: 601	Re: Who designed the Model A engine ? Tim - thank you ! This is the info I was looking for. Jim

03-16-2020, 05:05 PM	#4
johnneilson Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: 34.22 N 118.36 W Posts: 1,057	Re: Who designed the Model A engine ? I also understand that Harold Hicks was partially responsible for the safety glass windshield. As in, he was injured pretty severally when in an accident, and result was the safety glass. He also had a comment about the crankshaft in the "A" but was not successful in convincing the establishment. J __________________ As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.

03-16-2020, 05:45 PM	#6
Flathead Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern Maine Posts: 1,499	Re: Who designed the Model A engine ? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Larger diameter bearing journals.

03-16-2020, 07:04 PM	#7
M2M Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Australia/USA/EU/Soviet Russia Posts: 1,105	Re: Who designed the Model A engine ? Two Hungarians are responsible for the T engine. Russians claim the B engine as their love child. It's possible that Americans are behind the A engine. __________________

03-16-2020, 07:35 PM	#8
Jack Shaft BANNED Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 1,196	Re: Who designed the Model A engine ? During Hicks 's remarkable achievements upping the horsepower from 22 to 40 he also told Ford what every other engineer was afraid to say..Farkas,Sheldrick,no one wanted to tell Ford there was a main bearing issue..Hicks did,and fell out of favor,and was gone by '36..if you want to learn more,read the oral histories..farkas,hicks in their own words.. https://cdm15889.contentdm.oclc.org/...on/p15889coll2 click on 'digitized oral histories',its highlighted..and be ready to spend hours,fascinating first hand ford history from the guys who made it..

03-16-2020, 07:53 PM	#9
Conaway2 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Mt. Pleasant, SC Posts: 601	Re: Who designed the Model A engine ? thanks for all the comments ! I’m writing a column for our April newsletter (Low Country Model A’s) and am very interested in the history of Model A development. JIm

03-16-2020, 08:39 PM	#11
Jack Shaft BANNED Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 1,196	Re: Who designed the Model A engine ? That ultimately got Hicks out of Ford.the engineers wanted to make the crankshaft journals larger and lighten the flywheel..they ultimately won the battle in '32 with the B engine. Hick's called it a main bearing 'thump'

03-16-2020, 10:32 PM	#13
CA Victoria Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 2,113	Re: Who designed the Model A engine ? Very informative. While Sørensen wrote a biography other information about these men are contained in bits and pieces within various stories. If there are any good reads please post your sources. Thanks y’all, love the Barn! __________________ Tim Downtown, Ca

03-16-2020, 10:35 PM	#14
CA Victoria Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 2,113	Re: Who designed the Model A engine ? There is also a story of Edsel and Sheldrik designing a 6 cylinder engine.......until Henry found out. Can you imagine Henry’s Lady with a “6”......... __________________ Tim Downtown, Ca

03-16-2020, 10:51 PM	#15
Jack Shaft BANNED Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 1,196	Re: Who designed the Model A engine ? It should have had the X 8,engineering spent over five years developing that engine.The four cylinder was a 'default' engine,underpowered from introduction if the X8had panned out things would have been different..even a six would have gave them more of a chance to recoup the money they spent developing the A..financially the A was a failure

03-16-2020, 11:02 PM	#16
Pete Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wa. Posts: 5,409	Re: Who designed the Model A engine ? The model A was named after the designer, George Modela. He did it on a napkin while drinking cheap booze in a speakeasy.

03-17-2020, 06:04 AM	#18
Bruce of MN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: VA Posts: 1,410	Re: Who designed the Model A engine ? I believe that the French had a number of oddball sizes and the metric world didn't get as uniform as they are now until after WW2.

03-17-2020, 07:46 AM	#19
Jack Shaft BANNED Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 1,196	Re: Who designed the Model A engine ? Awarding the contract to Zenith is interesting,although they provided what Hicks needed for horsepower development they didn't have the manufacturing capacity to meet ford's demand. Holley had the capacity and filled the void when Zenith fell behind,that is fact. Rumor has it Ford and George Holley did not get along..even though they were neighbors.So Zenith won the award,couldn't meet,but was allowed the time to increase capacity while Holley pitched in to meet demand...rare stuff in the harsh world of subcontracting to Ford.

03-17-2020, 08:03 AM	#20
Jack Shaft BANNED Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 1,196	Re: Who designed the Model A engine ? https://cdm15889.contentdm.oclc.org/...9coll2/id/7759 https://cdm15889.contentdm.oclc.org/...9coll2/id/6468 Pictured is Eugene Farkas,linked is the oral histories of Farkas and Hicks..Farkas was one of Fords favorites,a true experimental engineer,as opposed to Sheldrick,who was more of an executive engineer. Farkas's work on the model a was like being a fireman,he went to the fires..one was the front brakes,where he designed the front brake wedge,which gave them fits..he also was on X8 development and was working on a fully automatic transmission using cone clutches when the A development was launched. Below is the final blueprint for the front brake wedge..a little off topic,but it does speak to the effort involved in design in 1927..it was tough being an engineer at Ford that year..