The Ford Barn

Sparky75 · 04-12-2012, 02:41 PM

Does anyone know the stock original steering ratio?
I bought a Saginaw 410 (Vega) box from Mullins a couple of years ago and they are telling me that everyone uses this box in 40s, the ratio they tell me is stock Vega 22:1, I'm sorry but I just got this car driveable and it now steers like a Grayhound bus. Any suggestions PLEASE

Bruce Lancaster · 04-12-2012, 03:17 PM

Stock is 18:1, I think, slower than earlier Ford but decently responsive.
Options? Rebuild stocker, or think about overall ratio. Can you get a longer pitman arm for the Vega?? How long is what you hace, center to center?

Sparky75 · 04-12-2012, 03:51 PM

The Mullins box is 4.75 turns lock to lock, the pitman arm is max lenght, and I on longer have the stock one. The Mullins box was suposed to be an upgrade, no longer has slop but is not a pleasure to drive. I've read on the internet these vega boxs come in 3 ratios 22:1, 20:1, and 15:1, the only place I can find the 15:1 is flaming river and they want $499 for it, just a little steep to me but I may have no choice.

3quarter32 · 04-12-2012, 04:16 PM

I would think a shorter pitman arm would soften the steering up, but make more turns lock to lock. Just went thru this on my 32, because it was taking to many turns on the wheel to make a turn. It steered like power steering sitting still. I shortened the steering arms by 1 1/2". Now it turns a bit harder, but will turn sharper quicker. This sounds like just the reverse of my problem. Since I have a rack/pinion could go to longer pitman to quicken turn. Waiting for flames on this answer.
Lee

Bruce Lancaster · 04-12-2012, 04:39 PM

Longer pitman will speed up the overall ratio; shorter arms on spindles also, but those are forged integral with spindle. Anyhow, the 15 to one box would be my immediate choice there! Also would like to know length of pitman to compare with Ford.

deluxe40 · 01-17-2014, 01:26 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I have the same problem as Sparky75 - I just bought a '40 Tudor with a 4" axle and a Vega steering box and it steers very hard, much harder than my stock '32. Also the Vega box has way too much play and all adjustments and tightening of other components do not help. According to previous owners, this is the second brand new (probably aftermarket) Vega box that this car has destroyed. The steering is easy on jack stands, but very difficult on the ground. Is it possible that there is too much caster (king pin tilt) in the axle? Also, should I look for a particular brand of new Vega box or one with the 22:1 ratio? (Does 22:1 ratio mean 22 complete turns of the steering wheel = one complete turn of the pitman arm?)

Karl Wolf · 01-17-2014, 01:46 PM

In the avatar, I'm running about 11 degrees of caster on a 33-36 axle with a 59AB (weight) on that and F-1 box steers easy... Just added a small steering wheel (got it free) and it's still great.

Point is, I would look at the steering box- or linkage geometry.

Karl

Chisel · 01-17-2014, 01:49 PM

Last week I called Classic Performance Products,Inc [CPP] about there new power steering Vega box [400 series] and talked to one of their engineers. He said their vega steering box has a maximum vehicle rating of 2000 lbs. He said if used on a 40 Ford it won't last very long.

Mart · 01-17-2014, 01:55 PM

Describing it as steering like a greyhound bus isn't very helpful when asking for advice. Some think it has light but slow steering ("fit a longer pitman arm"). Some think it has dead, heavy, or sloppy steering.

So which is it? Try and use terms that are unambiguous.

Mart.

Chisel · 01-17-2014, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mart

Describing it as steering like a greyhound bus isn't very helpful when asking for advice. Some think it has light but slow steering ("fit a longer pitman arm"). Some think it has dead, heavy, or sloppy steering.

So which is it? Try and use terms that are unambiguous.

Mart.

Some think it has light but slow steering---- new steering box in light car

Some think it has dead, heavy, or sloppy steering---- worn out steering box

40 Ford is too heavy for a Vega box.

Krylon32 · 01-17-2014, 02:40 PM

I've built several 40 chassis using the Vega box for customers and have no problems. There is a lot of difference in Vega box's. I now use the box manufactured by the OEM builder. I used to sell the foreign made boxes on my chassis because I could make more money but when they started to come back to haunt me in herds I decided after replacing quite a few that it wasn't worth the extra money to cut corners in this area!

Chisel · 01-17-2014, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krylon32

I've built several 40 chassis using the Vega box for customers and have no problems. There is a lot of difference in Vega box's. I now use the box manufactured by the OEM builder. I used to sell the foreign made boxes on my chassis because I could make more money but when they started to come back to haunt me in herds I decided after replacing quite a few that it wasn't worth the extra money to cut corners in this area!

That's what I call skating on the edge. OEM or not I never use criticall parts that are used on a car that is lighter than what I am building. Lawsuits are hell. What is the maximum vehicle weight limit for an OEM Vega steering box?

deluxe40 · 01-17-2014, 04:37 PM

OK, my '40 Tudor (w/ SBC 350/350) is likely too heavy for the Vega boxes that it has used up previously. Are there alternatives (preferably bolt in) that would work? On other threads I see good reports on Saginaw 525 boxes in '40 Fords. Is the 525 adequate for the weight? Are modifications required to replace the Vega w/ the 525? (Pardon my GM ignorance. I have driven '40 Fords for more than 50 years, but they all had flatheads and stock steering that worked just fine.)

V8COOPMAN · 01-17-2014, 04:57 PM

Gotta remember that a Chevy Vega was pretty damn light. Figures I found stipulated between 2415 and 2531 lbs., depending on configuration/options. '40 Fords are substantially heavier than that. Not only that, but that box was steering small footprint tires on 13" wheels, originally. I also seem to remember that most boxes I've seen had a fairly long-ish pitman arm. The longer a pitman arm is on any given-ratio box, the MORE difficult it becomes to turn the steering wheel. Also, the LOWER the BIG number in the ratio (15:1 as compared to 22:1), the more difficult it is (less leverage) to steer the vehicle.

Bunches of guys have used Vegas in '40s. I wouldn't use one on a dare. I've got a Saginaw 525 ('60s, '70s and '80s GM mid-size) in my '40 coupe...love it! In addition, the '40 pitman arm bolts directly onto the 525. DD

V8COOPMAN · 01-17-2014, 05:35 PM

deluxe40...Info I have indicates that the Vega / Saginaw 140, 525, 605 and even the giant 700 power steering boxes use the same mounting pattern. The Sag 525 would come out of something like a Cutlass or Chevelle...plenty rugged for a '40 Ford. DD

Old Redneck · 01-17-2014, 05:56 PM

I have two 39 and a 40 and they all steer like power steering. I do keep my cars stock. Now if I was to put larger and fater tires maybe it would steer tough. One does need to do his homework when changing steering. It can be very costly I guess.

deluxe40 · 01-18-2014, 12:28 PM

Thanks to all for the good advice. Replacing the Vega with either a 525 or the stock '40 Ford box are the ways I am exploring at the moment. Looking at pictures on eBay it appears that the 525 has a much longer input shaft than the Vega. There isn't room for a longer shaft in the current installation. Does it make sense to cut the input shaft down?

sortkaffekop · 01-19-2014, 08:20 AM

Im thinking toe-in -toe out: A few mm out, and its a pig to drive.

Christian

rich b · 01-19-2014, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deluxe40

Thanks to all for the good advice. Replacing the Vega with either a 525 or the stock '40 Ford box are the ways I am exploring at the moment. Looking at pictures on eBay it appears that the 525 has a much longer input shaft than the Vega. There isn't room for a longer shaft in the current installation. Does it make sense to cut the input shaft down?

Borgeson has a short input shaft 525 box, kinda pricey, compared to used a OEM box; but maybe worthwhile instead reworking your set-up to fit the long input box. I think Summit has one of the lower prices on this box.

deluxe40 · 01-19-2014, 08:30 PM

We checked the toe-in (1/16") and the caster (9 degrees). Also found the short-input 525 on the Summit and the Borgeson sites (#920011). Looks like I might need a different u-joint (30 vs. 36 splines on input shaft). I know the 525 is bigger than the Vega - might have to reroute the exhaust pipe. Thanks again for the good pointers. Onward!

04-12-2012, 02:41 PM	#1
Sparky75 Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Cumming, Ga. Posts: 11	40 Sedan steering Does anyone know the stock original steering ratio? I bought a Saginaw 410 (Vega) box from Mullins a couple of years ago and they are telling me that everyone uses this box in 40s, the ratio they tell me is stock Vega 22:1, I'm sorry but I just got this car driveable and it now steers like a Grayhound bus. Any suggestions PLEASE

04-12-2012, 03:17 PM	#2
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: 40 Sedan steering Stock is 18:1, I think, slower than earlier Ford but decently responsive. Options? Rebuild stocker, or think about overall ratio. Can you get a longer pitman arm for the Vega?? How long is what you hace, center to center?

04-12-2012, 03:51 PM	#3
Sparky75 Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Cumming, Ga. Posts: 11	Re: 40 Sedan steering The Mullins box is 4.75 turns lock to lock, the pitman arm is max lenght, and I on longer have the stock one. The Mullins box was suposed to be an upgrade, no longer has slop but is not a pleasure to drive. I've read on the internet these vega boxs come in 3 ratios 22:1, 20:1, and 15:1, the only place I can find the 15:1 is flaming river and they want $499 for it, just a little steep to me but I may have no choice.

04-12-2012, 04:16 PM	#4
3quarter32 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Broken Arrow, OK Posts: 147	Re: 40 Sedan steering I would think a shorter pitman arm would soften the steering up, but make more turns lock to lock. Just went thru this on my 32, because it was taking to many turns on the wheel to make a turn. It steered like power steering sitting still. I shortened the steering arms by 1 1/2". Now it turns a bit harder, but will turn sharper quicker. This sounds like just the reverse of my problem. Since I have a rack/pinion could go to longer pitman to quicken turn. Waiting for flames on this answer. Lee

04-12-2012, 04:39 PM	#5
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: 40 Sedan steering Longer pitman will speed up the overall ratio; shorter arms on spindles also, but those are forged integral with spindle. Anyhow, the 15 to one box would be my immediate choice there! Also would like to know length of pitman to compare with Ford.

01-17-2014, 01:26 PM	#6
deluxe40 Junior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: California Posts: 8	Re: 40 Sedan steering Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I have the same problem as Sparky75 - I just bought a '40 Tudor with a 4" axle and a Vega steering box and it steers very hard, much harder than my stock '32. Also the Vega box has way too much play and all adjustments and tightening of other components do not help. According to previous owners, this is the second brand new (probably aftermarket) Vega box that this car has destroyed. The steering is easy on jack stands, but very difficult on the ground. Is it possible that there is too much caster (king pin tilt) in the axle? Also, should I look for a particular brand of new Vega box or one with the 22:1 ratio? (Does 22:1 ratio mean 22 complete turns of the steering wheel = one complete turn of the pitman arm?) Last edited by deluxe40; 01-17-2014 at 01:32 PM.

01-17-2014, 01:46 PM	#7
Karl Wolf Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mill Valley,Ca. Posts: 1,509	Re: 40 Sedan steering In the avatar, I'm running about 11 degrees of caster on a 33-36 axle with a 59AB (weight) on that and F-1 box steers easy... Just added a small steering wheel (got it free) and it's still great. Point is, I would look at the steering box- or linkage geometry. Karl

01-17-2014, 01:49 PM	#8
Chisel Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 232	Re: 40 Sedan steering Last week I called Classic Performance Products,Inc [CPP] about there new power steering Vega box [400 series] and talked to one of their engineers. He said their vega steering box has a maximum vehicle rating of 2000 lbs. He said if used on a 40 Ford it won't last very long. __________________ Chisel Evil Lurks...for those that don't carry a side arm!!! Last edited by Chisel; 01-17-2014 at 01:55 PM.

01-17-2014, 01:55 PM	#9
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,745	Re: 40 Sedan steering Describing it as steering like a greyhound bus isn't very helpful when asking for advice. Some think it has light but slow steering ("fit a longer pitman arm"). Some think it has dead, heavy, or sloppy steering. So which is it? Try and use terms that are unambiguous. Mart.

01-17-2014, 02:40 PM	#11
Krylon32 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,471	Re: 40 Sedan steering I've built several 40 chassis using the Vega box for customers and have no problems. There is a lot of difference in Vega box's. I now use the box manufactured by the OEM builder. I used to sell the foreign made boxes on my chassis because I could make more money but when they started to come back to haunt me in herds I decided after replacing quite a few that it wasn't worth the extra money to cut corners in this area!

01-17-2014, 04:37 PM	#13
deluxe40 Junior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: California Posts: 8	Re: 40 Sedan steering OK, my '40 Tudor (w/ SBC 350/350) is likely too heavy for the Vega boxes that it has used up previously. Are there alternatives (preferably bolt in) that would work? On other threads I see good reports on Saginaw 525 boxes in '40 Fords. Is the 525 adequate for the weight? Are modifications required to replace the Vega w/ the 525? (Pardon my GM ignorance. I have driven '40 Fords for more than 50 years, but they all had flatheads and stock steering that worked just fine.)

01-17-2014, 04:57 PM	#14
V8COOPMAN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON Posts: 11,106	Re: 40 Sedan steering Gotta remember that a Chevy Vega was pretty damn light. Figures I found stipulated between 2415 and 2531 lbs., depending on configuration/options. '40 Fords are substantially heavier than that. Not only that, but that box was steering small footprint tires on 13" wheels, originally. I also seem to remember that most boxes I've seen had a fairly long-ish pitman arm. The longer a pitman arm is on any given-ratio box, the MORE difficult it becomes to turn the steering wheel. Also, the LOWER the BIG number in the ratio (15:1 as compared to 22:1), the more difficult it is (less leverage) to steer the vehicle. Bunches of guys have used Vegas in '40s. I wouldn't use one on a dare. I've got a Saginaw 525 ('60s, '70s and '80s GM mid-size) in my '40 coupe...love it! In addition, the '40 pitman arm bolts directly onto the 525. DD __________________ *Click Links Below* __ ▼ *'35-'36 W/8BA & MECHANICAL FAN* *T5 W/TORQUE TUBE*

01-17-2014, 05:35 PM	#15
V8COOPMAN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON Posts: 11,106	Re: 40 Sedan steering deluxe40...Info I have indicates that the Vega / Saginaw 140, 525, 605 and even the giant 700 power steering boxes use the same mounting pattern. The Sag 525 would come out of something like a Cutlass or Chevelle...plenty rugged for a '40 Ford. DD __________________ *Click Links Below* __ ▼ *'35-'36 W/8BA & MECHANICAL FAN* *T5 W/TORQUE TUBE*

01-17-2014, 05:56 PM	#16
Old Redneck Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Waynesburg,Pa. Posts: 1,909	Re: 40 Sedan steering I have two 39 and a 40 and they all steer like power steering. I do keep my cars stock. Now if I was to put larger and fater tires maybe it would steer tough. One does need to do his homework when changing steering. It can be very costly I guess.

01-18-2014, 12:28 PM	#17
deluxe40 Junior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: California Posts: 8	Re: 40 Sedan steering Thanks to all for the good advice. Replacing the Vega with either a 525 or the stock '40 Ford box are the ways I am exploring at the moment. Looking at pictures on eBay it appears that the 525 has a much longer input shaft than the Vega. There isn't room for a longer shaft in the current installation. Does it make sense to cut the input shaft down?

01-19-2014, 08:20 AM	#18
sortkaffekop Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Kolding, Denmark Posts: 129	Re: 40 Sedan steering Im thinking toe-in -toe out: A few mm out, and its a pig to drive. Christian

01-19-2014, 08:30 PM	#20
deluxe40 Junior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: California Posts: 8	Re: 40 Sedan steering We checked the toe-in (1/16") and the caster (9 degrees). Also found the short-input 525 on the Summit and the Borgeson sites (#920011). Looks like I might need a different u-joint (30 vs. 36 splines on input shaft). I know the 525 is bigger than the Vega - might have to reroute the exhaust pipe. Thanks again for the good pointers. Onward!