Heater no hot air from Heater?

[Old Redneck]

I ordered a high out put water pump with spacer from Hill's. When it came I open the box and look at the water pump. I got a 180 degree thermostat. I did not pay any attention to the spacer. I remove the old water pump and thermostat 160 and installed the 180. Here they sent me the same spacer as what was with the old water pump. Not the A-432 that Chris Ames design. I had to put the T-Bird back together because my Grand Daughter's are coming Tuesday and they will want to drive the T-Bird for sure.Will call Hill's Monday about this mistake. NOW still no heat from the heater??? Not sure what to do next. Any of you had this problem?

[55blacktie]

I don't think your water pump or spacer have anything to do with your heater not producing heat. Did you check the heater control valve/heater blower?

Is Hill's advertising Chris's spacer? I thought it was only available directly from Chris; that's how I bought mine.

[Old Redneck]

I am not upset with Hill's just needs to solve the problem. I know the wattle pump has nothing to do with the heater. Down the road I am installing Air Conditioning. This is the first part to get ready. So you say I half to get the correct spacer I half to contact Chris?

[CSPIDY]

Ken
Paragon Technology
Chris Ames
[email protected]
602-722-0749
Dave

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by 55blacktie

. . . Is Hill's advertising Chris's spacer? I thought it was only available directly from Chris; that's how I bought mine.

Originally Posted by Old Redneck

. . . So you say I half to get the correct spacer I half to contact Chris?

Pretty sure you can only buy them direct from Chris at his website... https://thunderbird.us/
message a request from the website, receive an invoice, then enclose a check, snail mail,
no online sales or credit cards.

[Old Redneck]

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CSPIDY schooled me about the spacer. I did not know you had to order it from Criss. I will do that. CSPIDY came here to help me install the High Output Waterpump. He was a big help. I think I am going to order the Air Conditioning. After the Grand-Daughters go home will start the process. I got the new gas tank and electric fuel pump to install. Like to try a pair of Glass packs Mufflers but don't want to make to loud just deep sound. Not sure about doing that. Any of you got Glass Pack Mufflers on your T-Bird?

[55blacktie]

Chris is a good guy, who will talk to you at length, if you call/email.

Smithys or Porter mufflers if you want old-school sound.

[Daves55Sedan]

Ok so for the heater, I would say first check to see if the temperature control cable from the heater control cluster didn't fall off the clamp on the heater register housing under the dash. Possibly the bracket that holds the cable clamp broke off the heat register housing.
If that is okay and the end of the cable IS ENGAGED with the temperature control valve, you should be able to push the control knob to "High", which will allow water from the engine to enter the valve.
The water flows thru the valve only if you have the temp control knob pushed over to allow heat. You can throttle the knob down half way to decrease the amount of water the valve will allow to come in (thus reducing the amount of heat).
From the valve, the water comes out the outlet hose and into the heater core, then back out the heater core and returns to engine.
Make sure your heater hose connections are going to the right place. There should be an excellent illustration in your SHOP MANUAL.
While you are at it, check your right-air-heat-defrost cable to see if it is properly connected. Look under the dash behind the heat control cluster to see if the cable clamps are loose or disconnected.
Also check to make sure somebody does NOT have an inline heater hose bypass valve shutoff in the line going from engine to control valve. If it is shut off, turn it on. Some people will do this because the heater control valve has a rubber washer inside that stops the water when the heater control is off, but when it gets old, that rubber washer deteriorates and allows hot water in during summertime. The bypass valve reroutes the water back to the engine before the water can get to the heater core via the control valve.
So, in summary:
1) heater control cables inoperative by various means
2) heater hoses not routed to the proper locations.
3) aftermarket bypass valve shut off.

[CSPIDY]

I replaced my entire exhaust system last winter,
I installed the original style that CASCO sells.
Mufflers were included.
Has a nice deep tone to it,
not to loud but you can definitely hear it.
I left The resonators off.
I did add the stainless heat shields that help cut down the heat under the floor

[55blacktie]

Did leaving the resonators off make it louder? If so, how much louder?

[Old Redneck]

I got no vacuum at my water control valve? On the double action fuel pump am I to have vacuum at both ports one going to carb other going to wipers and control valve right?

[Old Redneck]

I found My vacuum gauge and on the double action fuel pump has two vacuum ports left and right the one on the left the gauge goes real high when you first start it up then falls off all the way back. Now if you gas the car pretty hard the vacuum goes back up thens fall off is that normal?

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by Old Redneck

I got no vacuum at my water control valve? On the double action fuel pump am I to have vacuum at both ports one going to carb other going to wipers and control valve right?

I found My vacuum gauge and on the double action fuel pump has two vacuum ports left and right the one on the left the gauge goes real high when you first start it up then falls off all the way back. Now if you gas the car pretty hard the vacuum goes back up thens fall off is that normal?

The top half of the fuel pump is not so much a pump as a vacuum 'booster' for the windshield wipers. One side connects to manifold vacuum, the vacuum is boosted at the other fitting which connects to a line thru the firewall to power the wiper motor and heater controls. The intended purpose is to keep the wipers working when accelerating or going uphill, and the manifold vacuum alone wouldn't be enough.
Photo 3, a similar example, the vacuum lines on a '55.

[CSPIDY]

Originally Posted by 55blacktie

Did leaving the resonators off make it louder? If so, how much louder?

Not louder but changed the pitch, seams lower than with them

[CSPIDY]

Originally Posted by Old Redneck

I got no vacuum at my water control valve? On the double action fuel pump am I to have vacuum at both ports one going to carb other going to wipers and control valve right?

Looks like you may have a problem under the dash as 55Dave suggests

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by Old Redneck

. . . Like to try a pair of Glass packs Mufflers but don't want to make to loud just deep sound. Not sure about doing that. Any of you got Glass Pack Mufflers on your T-Bird?

I have a recently disassembled '57 Bird with no resonators and glass pack mufflers, don't know their brand if it matters. Later this week I'll be where it's getting body work and could measure the length and diameter for you if it helps.
It has / had a nice throatier sound more entertaining than the stock mufflers on my '55. And from inside the car they don't seem louder.
.

[Daves55Sedan]

Originally Posted by Old Redneck

I got no vacuum at my water control valve?

Apparently you have the bimetallic vacuum thermostat valve in conjunction with the vacuum operated water control valve. (thermostat valve is located in the heater register under the dash and the water valve is located on engine intake manifold).
If so, the way it works is that vacuum is pulled from the engine (intake manifold) via metal tubing to a rubber hose that penetrates the firewall and terminates at a nylon "tee" fitting. One end of the tee goes to windshield wiper motor and the other end has a hose that connects to the vacuum thermostat valve.
WHEN the temperature control knob is set to "heat", the vacuum thermostat valve opens vacuum to flow thru the thermostat valve to another little hose that goes back out thru the firewall to the water valve on the intake manifold. The vacuum pulls a plunger inside the water valve to open hot water flow to the heater core.
Soooo, if you wanna check vacuum, Run the engine, set the temp control knob to "heat", pull the vacuum hose off the water control valve on the engine and measure the vacuum pull coming thru the HOSE, not the water valve.
If no vacuum is detected by your guage, work your way back to the thermostat control valve and check the output hose there. Still no vacuum, pull the inlet hose off the thermostat control valve and measure vacuum pull from the HOSE. If no vacuum is detected, possibly your dual-action fuel pump has a busted vacuum diaphragm.
BUT do not assume so.
Bypass the vacuum booster on the fuel pump by connecting vacuum DIRECTLY from the metal tubing (originating at that square brass fitting on the intake manifold) via a rubber hose to the inlet of the thermostat control valve under the dash. Now select "heat" at the temperature control knob, then ONCE AGAIN go back to the water valve and check for vacuum at the HOSE.
If you NOW have vacuum, the thermostat control valve is GOOD ! Replace your dual-action fuel pump.
The only other thing that could be causing a problem is a cracked rubber hose (or disconnected) which is leaking all the vacuum.
Look at page 266 of the '56 Ford CAR shop manual to see illustration and read how the system works.

[Daves55Sedan]

VACUUM for the entire system (anything that uses vacuum in the car) originates at the square brass fitting on top of the intake manifold.
Cars that have a vacuum booster on the fuel pump (dual-action fuel pump) have the main vacuum routed via metal tubing down to the fuel pump vacuum booster, and right back out to serve the accessories (windshield wipers, windshield washer and heater vacuum control system, when so equipped).
The vacuum booster on the fuel pump maintains a STEADY pull of vacuum even when the engine is LOADED, in which vacuum is decreased). The dual-action fuel pump was used mainly to prevent the windshield wipers from stopping whenever you wanted to pass a car on the highway.
Normally, your intake manifold vacuum should be around 19-20" during engine idle and anytime engine is cruising (not loaded). When you stomp on the accellerator, the carb sucks all the vacuum so that you have none for accessories, and then when you let off the accellerator, the vacuum may momentarily jump way up to around 27", then settle back down to 19" when engine is idling or cruising again.

[dmsfrr]

The Holley 4000 on a '56 T-Bird has the brass manifold vacuum fitting on the lower back side of the carburetor.

[Daves55Sedan]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

The Holley 4000 on a '56 T-Bird has the brass manifold vacuum fitting on the lower back side of the carburetor.

Apologies to all the 4-bbl intake owners. I'm kinda stuck on the pre 1957, 2-bbl "bugsprayer" type carbs.

[55blacktie]

The Tbird's frame's X-member limits the size of the mufflers. The stock inlet is 2"/outlet 1 3/4." A case length of 14", OAL 19", width 7.850", and 4.125" thickness will fit the original location. Although 55s don't have resonators, you could add them.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan

Apologies to all the 4-bbl intake owners. I'm kinda stuck on the pre 1957, 2-bbl "bugsprayer" type carbs.

One of our local T-Bird club owners with a '56 moved out of town a couple weeks ago and left me some extra parts, including a '56 4bbl intake manifold, or I wouldn't have known for sure either.
.

[Old Redneck]

I ordered a new fuel pump because there no vacuum there.I an starting there.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by Old Redneck

I ordered a new fuel pump because there no vacuum there.I an starting there.

Save the old fuel pump. It may actually be in better shape than you think, and last longer than an off-shore made replacement.
I'm guessing you can test the vacuum booster by placing a finger on the 'manifold' fitting to block it and gently blowing into a rubber tube connected to the 'wiper' fitting (photo 1) to see if the diaphragm can hold pressure or is leaking. This can most likely be done *on the car* to save some time, labor and aggravation.

IF.. you're only trying to get a vacuum signal to test and operate the heater controls, the booster part of the fuel pump is not actually needed at all.
Just connect a vacuum line from the manifold vacuum fitting on the carburetor (photo 2, assuming you have a good vacuum level there) and run it thru the firewall to the existing(?) vacuum connections under the dash. (photo 3)
.

[Old Redneck]

I got npvacuum at the fuel pump. I ordered a Carter fuel pump.

[Daves55Sedan]

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Originally Posted by Old Redneck

I ordered a new fuel pump because there no vacuum there.I an starting there.

If you turn on a light in a room in your house....do you....check the fuse or circuit breaker at the SOURCE first, OR do you unscrew the bulb and put another one in to see if it works now???
Regardless of whether there is a plumbing, electrical, or in this case a vacuum system, always begin the tests at the END-OF-THE-LINE and work back toward the source.
The last test should be the vacuum booster test. IT IS NOT A PUMP, ONLY A BOOSTER. To test, run engine at idle and check the vacuum at the square brass fitting (in this case at back of teapot carburator, thank you dmssfr). If you have around 19-20" of vacuum at idle on your test guage, you have GOOD intake vacuum. If the guage shows lower than 19", you have carb or gasket problems that must be corrected before even touching the fuel pump.
So if intake vacuum is good, go to the fuel pump and pull off the hose that runs back to the firewall and install your vacuum guage on it. Pull the hose off line that comes from the square brass fitting on back of the carb AND PLUG THAT HOSE WITH A PENCIL. Have somebody sit in the car and give it enough gas to get it going about 500rpm (thats a little more than idle speed). I suggest hooking up a dwell tachometer unless dashboard has a tach that still works (I think all early T-birds had them). The vacuum reading at the guage should be at least 10" of mercury. If it does, the vacuum booster is GOOD. If it does not, replace fuel pump (or get a new vacuum diaphragm and rebuild pump yourself).

[dmsfrr]

What Dave said too... ^ ^ ^

Originally Posted by Old Redneck

I got npvacuum at the fuel pump. I ordered a Carter fuel pump.

Not sure I'm following everything you're saying...

IF you're getting vacuum in the line from the carburetor, was it connected to the outboard fitting on the booster when you tested the 'wiper' fitting on the booster?
If it was and you get no vacuum on the 'wiper' fitting, yes it's leaking / broken.

If the vacuum line from the carb wasn't connected, I wouldn't expect much if anything from the booster. (I've not tried it)

[KULTULZ]

The two-stage fuel pump being discussed top section is a vacuum pump that senses manifold vacuum as lessening and then will cut in and supply vacuum for any vacuum accessory. It will not cut-in until a low manifold vacuum signal is sensed.

Way too much confusion here. A vacuum gauge and MITY-VAC (along with correct factory manual) is all that it needed to diagnose no/low heat.

[Gene F]

If no heat, the heater hoses may be on backwards. If no air, my 57 Fairlane has a little door at the bottom of the heater box (above the hump) that just flips open and closed with your finger.

[55blacktie]

The Tbird has the same heater-box door. Fully opening the door will reduce hot air for the defroster.

[Daves55Sedan]

Originally Posted by 55blacktie

The Tbird has the same heater-box door. Fully opening the door will reduce hot air for the defroster.

The heater box door was a "quick-heat" feature, but it does not matter, really. If the heater core is getting hot water from the engine, you will still get heat out of the heat register with the quick-heat door closed, but you can feel heat more abundantly with the door OPEN with your hand feeling the air coming out of the plenum (blower motor must be on if engine is idling in park).

[Daves55Sedan]

Tell ya what. There's a ton of ways to check the vacuum booster on the fuel pump. You could start the engine, throw a bucket of water on the windshield, turn the windshield wipers on and rev the engine with brake pedal depressed. If the wipers STOP when you rev the engine, the vacuum booster is shot.
Also, if I didn't mention it already, another easy way to check is to disconnect both lines connected to top of vacuum booster. Plug one side and use a MityVac (no need to have engine running for this test). Pump the MityVac trigger a couple times to reach a couple inches of mercury on the guage and hold it like that for a few minutes. If the guage does not drop to zero, the booster is likely good. Just don't exceed the maximum vacuum output of the booster or it might result in damage.

[Daves55Sedan]

I have major doubts that the fuel pump vacuum booster is at fault, but checking is a good idea. Reason why I don't think it is the problem is because you still have normal engine vacuum (albeit flowing thru the booster) and feeding your accessories. You should still have plenty of vacuum to operate wipers and heater controls (unless or hose or component is faulty) as I pointed out previously.
Remember, not all engines were equipped with the dual action fuel pump to begin with.

[dmsfrr]

Another possibility for no heat from the heater... a clogged heater core?

[KULTULZ]

IF the vacuum pump is not putting out ... ... all vacuum accessories will not operate properly at high demand throttle position(s). The power brakes (if equipped) will function as it has a vacuum reserve.

You have to check the condition of the hoses (and wiper vacuum motor) as to be able to hold a vacuum signal. That pump senses when manifold vacuum drops and only cuts in at that point (manifold vacuum is routed through the vacuum pump).

As for heat, you must ascertain a proper signal to the control valve. You then check function/coolant passage through that valve. You then confirm the temp control valve at the heater core is adjusted and functioning properly. Check heat at the pressure hose and the return hose. If hot on the supply and cool on the return, you have a blockage (valve - core -trapped air).

All is fully explained in the SHOP MANUAL.

The two-stage pump was an option on lower trim models.

[Daves55Sedan]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

IF the vacuum pump is not putting out ... ... all vacuum accessories will not operate properly at high demand throttle position(s). The power brakes (if equipped) will function as it has a vacuum reserve.

Oh, yes that is absolutely true, however, I am talking about testing in which case the engine is idling and there is no load on the engine. Ultimately, that means for a few split seconds, during high throttle operation, loading the engine down, there is a loss of manifold vacuum and in those split seconds, the heat control valve will starve for vacuum, but will resume normal operation after the engine load decreases. But he's not going to try to test it on the highway, when it's easier to test in the driveway with engine idling.

[Daves55Sedan]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

IF
The two-stage pump was an option on lower trim models.

True again. I saw many '55 Customlines at junkyards in the early '70's that had dual-action fuel pumps (presumably the factory installed units by the looks of them). Both the Y-blocks and I block 6-cyl engines offered optional dual-action pumps. Light-duty fleet cars of the Mainline variety, most likely had single-action pumps from the factory, but not all Mainlines had single-action pumps.
In '55, you could buy a two-toned Sunliner convertible with a 223 6-cyl and you could only guess what all options it had. Maybe all the bells and whistles, maybe few or none.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan

Tell ya what. There's a ton of ways to check the vacuum booster on the fuel pump. You could start the engine, throw a bucket of water on the windshield,

You mean just the water, not bucket and water?

...turn the windshield wipers on and rev the engine with brake pedal depressed. If the wipers STOP when you rev the engine, the vacuum booster is shot.

Not necessarily. There may be an interrupted vacuum signal or a mechanical defect somewhere.

Also, if I didn't mention it already, another easy way to check is to disconnect both lines connected to top of vacuum booster. Plug one side and use a MityVac (no need to have engine running for this test). Pump the MityVac trigger a couple times to reach a couple inches of mercury on the guage and hold it like that for a few minutes. If the guage does not drop to zero, the booster is likely good. Just don't exceed the maximum vacuum output of the booster or it might result in damage.

The quickest way (IMO) is to disconnect the manifold vacuum source and put a vacuum gauge on the outlet port. Without the manifold signal, the vacuum pump will initiate and supply a vacuum signal (min 10hg) If low/no signal, you would go further into it. The vacuum pump initiates a signal on both strokes so there should be no interruption of signal.

Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan

I have major doubts that the fuel pump vacuum booster is at fault, but checking is a good idea. Reason why I don't think it is the problem is because you still have normal engine vacuum (albeit flowing thru the booster) and feeding your accessories.

Any accessories are supplied from the wiper vacuum circuit. The booster is on a separate circuit.

You should still have plenty of vacuum to operate wipers and heater controls (unless or hose or component is faulty) as I pointed out previously.

Remember, not all engines were equipped with the dual action fuel pump to begin with.

Proper operation also depends on state of tune and having a normal/steady manifold vacuum @idle.

READ HERE -

https://www.ctci.org/windshield-wiper-vacuum-source/

https://www.ctci.org/improving-winds...iper-function/