Oil leak

[khschs]

Fired up the the duce today and much to my chagrin I had an oil leak. Again. It is at the front main seal. Again. First time I used the rope seal, big leak! Tried the one piece seal next same result. I would appreciate some advice on the best way solve this problem. The engine is a 59A with a Merc crank and a 8CM timing cover.
Keith

[ford38v8]

Kieth, see my answer to the question today “front oil pan crank shaft leak”

[Ggmac]

When using the rope seal , did you soak it in oil overnight? Its the only suggestion I could give

[khschs]

I am wondering if there are any other options, or are the rope seal and the Speedway one piece the only two choices?
Keith

[flatjack9]

Nothing else.

[WBrown]

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Are you using a speedy sleeve on the crank pulley? Mine has a reverse spiral groove in it to (I assume) decrease oil loss which plays heck with the one piece seal. Speedy sleeve covers the groove and protects the one piece seal. I have no problem with leaks.

[tubman]

I bought the one piece seal from Speedway, looked it over, read the instructions, threw it in the trash, and carefully installed the rope seal according to the instructions using the razor knife and guide provided with the gasket set. No problems.

[khschs]

W Brown: Yes I did use a speedy sleeve

tubman: I soaked the seal and used all the care I could muster.
I must be doing something wrong. This isn't rocket surgery.
Keith

[50fordcoupeman]

Hmmmmmm.............I thought Fords were supposed to leak!!

[tubman]

Originally Posted by 50fordcoupeman

Hmmmmmm.............I thought Fords were supposed to leak!!

Earlier ones, yeah. 8BA's can be made pretty leakproof, though.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by tubman

I bought the one piece seal from Speedway, looked it over, read the instructions, threw it in the trash, and carefully installed the rope seal according to the instructions using the razor knife and guide provided with the gasket set. No problems.

I'm with you. A properly installed rope seal works wonderfully.
There must be quite literally millions of them in use on various engine applications.

[Desoto291Hemi]

Tubman is correct,
The 8BA was the latest generation of Flathead back then .
They were engineering improvements with every generation of engine series .
And considering how fast these engines were assembled,,,,I can’t imagine how they did it so well .
The rope seals were installed in a few seconds,,,,,and sealed pretty darn good too .

Ford was really at the top of their game considering all the processes that are required to build a car .

Now,,,, I will admit I have never owned a Ford before my Flathead,,,(,8CM ),,,but I respect what they did .
Not because of my past experiences owning one,,,but by seeing how well they built .
These engines were designed and built very well .
I can’t believe how tight the tolerance were held during assembly,,,,,top quality bolts,,,excellent castings .
Pretty darn good in my book .

Tommy

[khschs]

It should be noted that I have a 59A pan and a 8CM timing cover. That shouldn't be a problem should it?

[tubman]

Originally Posted by khschs

It should be noted that I have a 59A pan and a 8CM timing cover. That shouldn't be a problem should it?

I don't know, as I have never done it, but you have me thinking. Somebody here will know.

"Bueller, Bueller, anyone, anyone?"

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by khschs

It should be noted that I have a 59A pan and a 8CM timing cover. That shouldn't be a problem should it?

I put a three bolt cover on my 59L block no problem. Should be the same. ...So, you have a post distributor on a 59A block?

[khschs]

I do have a post distributor on my engine
Keith

[Bored&Stroked]

When you say "big leak" - give us some perspective . . . what do you mean? What crank pulley are you using? Did you install an oil-slinger in front of the crankshaft gear? What cam do you have in it . . . is it a 49-53 cam (with the integral snout to drive the distributor), or did you use an adapter on a 59AB style cam?

[khschs]

Re: big leak. Probably 1 pt. during 10minutes running time.
Crank pully: 59A
Oil slinger: installed
Cam: 49-53
Way too big a leak to ignore!

[Bored&Stroked]

That amount of oil tells me that something is missing in the whole area between the crankshaft, pulley, timing cover and associated seals. Dang near sounds like there is no seal at all. Does your crankshaft pulley extend into the seal area and have a spiral wound groove that pulls oil back into the engine?

By chance do you have a crank pulley that does NOT have an integral sealing surface built into it? (They made these in 49-53 - along with pulleys that had the seal surface like the 32-48 engines). For these pulleys, one has to install a little "seal sleeve" onto the crankshaft - it has the spiral grooves and provided the seal surface for the front main seal. Again - two different types of pulleys for 49-53 - what do you have?

I don't see how you can be running a 59A crank pulley with a 49-53 cam - as the belt is right next to the block and would not align with the water pumps - it would also hit the distributor. I wonder if you have a different pulley than you believe - or you've somehow re-routed the fan belt. Can you take a picture of the front of your engine - such that we can see the belts, pumps and pulley?

[khschs]

The crank does not have an integral sealing surface and I have a little "seal sleeve" installed . The current seal is a Speedway one piece and it is assembled with a repair sleeve. Re: the water pumps they are 49 truck wide belt. The pulley I'm not sure of.
Sorry about pictures, no camera no knowledge no ability.

[Bored&Stroked]

Do you put silicone gasket sealer in the oil-pan groove and the timing cover groove and install the one pieace seal with it still wet? I find that it takes some sealer around the one-piece seal to fill in all the gaps and complete the seal. I probably put about an 1/8" bead in the seal groove channels.

The same goes for the oil-pan gasket. Usually it has to be trimmed to clear the one-peace seal, then you put silicone sealer in the corners where the pan meets the seal. Hard to diagnose from afar - but somewhere you have some major spaces/gaps in the main sealing area (that is my guess anyway). If you've got the steel seal sleave installed on the crank (little over an 1/8" thick and about 1 3/8" long) - with the smooth repair sleeve over it, then that area should be good to go.

How is the oil pressure in the engine? Could somebody have forgotten to put in the front galley plug - which would flood the timing system with huge amounts of oil? Is this a new engine, recently rebuilt???

[khschs]

Good morning, as I recall, it's been 4years since I last buttoned up the newly rebuilt engine, I sealed the pan/timing cover just as you described. I am reasonably sure I installed the oil galley plug. I did, however, drill a 0.060 hole in the plug to ensure adequate oil to the cam/crank gears. The oil pressure at 2000 RPM was 50 PSI
Keith
PS: it is morning in Yuma AZ.

[JSeery]

An .060 hole can move a lot of oil! That is the same size hole going into the oil filter. Not sure where you received the advice to drill a hole in the plug, but IMO a very bad idea and could be the source of your problem. There is no need for that much oil inside the timing cover.

[flatjack9]

That .060 hole is flooding the front of your engine in oil. Bad move.

[Bored&Stroked]

Well, you've posted the source of your major amount of oil - the drilled oil galley plug. The gears get plenty of oil out of the front cam bearing as well as a 49-53 cam is drilled to provide pressurized oil to the front of the timing cover (the cam thrust surface). There is no need to add additional oil to flood the timing area. My guess is that you're getting way too much oil for the oil seal to handle.

Also, did you install the late 49-53 crank and timing gears? They push the cam thrust toward the front of the block - which keeps the distributor mesh and timing in the right place and also closes up the gap between the end of the cam snout and the timing cover. This reduces the amount of pressurized oil that can come out the front of a 49-53 cam. If you used the 39-48 gears (which thrust toward the block), then there is a gap at the front of the cam . . . another source of more oil that wants to run down and flood the front of the crankshaft (the seal area is right below it).

It is not really too big of a deal to pull the timing cover, turn the crank so the timing marks are aligned and pull the cam gear. Then you can replace the plug with a stock one. Make sure you use an original plug - as it is designed to limit the amount of oil that goes up to the oil-pressure relief plunger up above it.

Before you do this, I'd pickup a replacement timing gear bolt locking plate (cheap and widely available) - as I seem to manage to break off the ears about 1/2 the time I take them off. Make sure you don't break off any ears and let them fall down into the pan.

[jrvariel48]

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Can someone please post pictures of this area?

[supereal]

At our shop we keep rope seals immersed in oil. Don't trim the length of the seal before installation. When tightened down, it is forced into the contact for necessary sealing action. Unless the seal surface on the crank is damaged, you should have good results. When using a repair sleeve, sealer must be applied to the inside of the sleeve before it is moved into place

[flatjack9]

I have used the rope seal and the neoprene seal with no leakage problems with either one. I also don't have a problem with the spiral grooves on the wear sleeve.

[khschs]

I will be starting disassembly tomorrow. The plan is to replace the gallery plug, check the thrust of the cam gear and seal the repair sleeve. If necessary I will drop the pan and start from square one. I will let you know what I find. Thanks I appreciate all the input.
Keith

[tubman]

Good decision. I'm sure everything will turn out all right.

[Talkwrench]

Can someone please post pictures of this area?

Not sure if this helps...?

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Talkwrench

Can someone please post pictures of this area?

Not sure if this helps...?

Thanks Talkwrench, I'm looking for the pictures behind the timing cover and gears where the plug is. I don't have a motor here to look.
Thanks!

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Can someone please post pictures of this area?

Here yah go . . .

BrockPrep3 copy.jpg

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Here yah go . . .

Attachment 460055

Thank you!

[khschs]

Well I did a fine job putting the front cover on.I had hard time getting it off. Lots of gasket scraping to do. I will have to drop the pan as I messed up the front of the pan gasket. I am going back with the rope seal and have ordered the necessary seals and gaskets from C&G.
Keith

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Thanks Talkwrench, I'm looking for the pictures behind the timing cover and gears where the plug is. I don't have a motor here to look.
Thanks!

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Here yah go . . .

Attachment 460055

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by khschs

Well I did a fine job putting the front cover on.I had hard time getting it off. Lots of gasket scraping to do. I will have to drop the pan as I messed up the front of the pan gasket. I am going back with the rope seal and have ordered the necessary seals and gaskets from C&G.
Keith

You have discovered the secret reason for only using a bit of grease to hold gaskets in place during installation.

[khschs]

You can bet I'll use grease going back. I just finished up soldering up the hole in the gallery plug and I noticed a little hole (1/4" ) located just above the gallery plug 2" +- what is its purpose?
Keith