The Ford Barn

MikeK · 02-02-2013, 09:56 AM

I've used these with 100% success on propane, refrigerant, and hydraulic flares that wouldn't otherwise seal. Available made from several different materials to match the app. LINK

"When inserted into a fitting, the concentric rings form multiple seals down the face of the flare, while the Loctite coating fills minor imperfections, dramatically increasing the integrity of the fitting. New ISO and NFPA standards strongly recommend seals for all fittings."

H. L. Chauvin · 02-02-2013, 10:57 AM

I had a copper fuel line from the Model A fire wall to the carburetor.

Because of constant vibration, generated heat, & metal fatigue, while working the copper fuel line back & forth, the copper hardened and fractured at the connection on the carburetor end & leaked gasoline.

(This fracture occurred in about (2) weeks & resembled taking a steel coat hanger, working it bach & forth in one short area until it breaks).

Next, I provided about a 6" diameter loop in the middle of a longer new copper line so that the copper line's loop could flex over a large area & it never broke again.

I saw someone's photo on this Forum sometime ago, of a loop provided in a Model A copper fuel line from fire wall to carburetor.

spdway1 · 02-02-2013, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

I had a copper fuel line from the Model A fire wall to the carburetor.

Because of constant vibration, generated heat, & metal fatigue, while working the copper fuel line back & forth, the copper hardened and fractured at the connection on the carburetor end & leaked gasoline.

(This fracture occurred in about (2) weeks & resembled taking a steel coat hanger, working it bach & forth in one short area until it breaks).

Next, I provided about a 6" diameter loop in the middle of a longer new copper line so that the copper line's loop could flex over a large area & it never broke again.

I saw someone's photo on this Forum sometime ago, of a loop provided in a Model A copper fuel line from fire wall to carburetor.

Are you thinking of "The Worm" on a moonshine still

sgwilson904 · 02-02-2013, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBohannon

sgwilson, I do not know if the brass fuel line is causing the problem but I can say I had the same problem and yes my fuel line was copper. Joe B.

Yes, sorry, I meant copper tubing, not brass.

Tom Wesenberg · 02-02-2013, 12:46 PM

I'd buy a new correct steel fuel line from a Model A parts house. Hopefully one is close. otherwise the shipping will probably be more than the part. Maybe get a few guys in the club that need parts and make one larger group order.

Old182 · 02-02-2013, 07:03 PM

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The issue of vapor lock has come up several times in this thread. While I suppose it's possible, it's unlikely in this case. Here are a few tidbits of information to chew on: Gasoline is made up of about 200 different hydrocarbons that all boil at different temperatures. In a distillation flask, 10 volume % of most gasolines have boiled under 50 to 70*F and all must finish boiling at or before 437*F to meet ASTM D4814, the spec for gasoline in the U.S. Butanes and pentanes are added to gasolines for "front end" volatility (cold starts); butane boiling at 31*F, pentane at 97*F. From there heavier components are added until the gasoline composition is complete with most gasolines finishing at around 400*F (aviation and racing gasolines way below that). The point here is that you may see gasoline bubbling in a clear filter or fuel line, or you may hear it in the carburetor bowl, but that isn't an indication of vapor lock; it's just the light ends boiling. Once the engine is warm, it will run fine with the mid-range and higher boiling components (even though some light ends remain). No offense meant to those suggesting vapor lock. I don't have any data, but I think to boil off enough fuel to cause vapor lock you would have to see actual sustained fuel temperatures well over 325*F, maybe higher. May be possible. Another $0.02.

Tom in SW VA · 02-02-2013, 07:05 PM

[QUOTE=BRENT in 10-uh-C;579471]Well I would start by making it happen all over again and at the moment that the symptoms arise, do a little diagnostic work. First off, "just won't go" means different things to different folks but to me it means the engine stops running. At that point I would immediately (without touching/fiddling with anything else) remove the coil wire and hold it about ¼" away from a good ground source while someone cranks the engine over. The evidence of the jumping spark will tell a lot. During this same time I would feel the carburetor bowl and the fuel line for a temperature reading. If either is excessively hot, I would find the reason why.

Personally I suspect it to be electrical like a worn/loose wire inside the distributor. Ironically, when something like this comes into my shop, I first start checking for areas where "McGuyvering" has taken place followed closely thereafter by looking for reproduction parts. I have seen repro terminal box screws come loose and short out against the firewall, and I have seen poor quality wiring harnesses have loose terminal ends do exactly as you stated. I have never seen a situation that could not be solved when enough time & prudent thought were given towards the problem.

I can personally attest to the fact that the problem could very well be the terminal box attachment to the firewall. Loose screws or the lack of insulation spacers can and will cause the car to stop running without notice. Just a thought.

Tom Wesenberg · 02-02-2013, 07:28 PM

Has the ignition switch been checked for gas tank clearance? Many repro switch terminals will touch or come very close to touching the gas tank. I had to bend my terminals to the side on my 29 Tudor with an aftermarket switch.

spdway1 · 02-02-2013, 10:55 PM

<----Assistant Here!

189 Posts with 6303 Views, maybe we should should sell advertising here!
I am off to CVS for some pain killers!

rally 1 · 02-03-2013, 11:43 AM

By any chance, was the timing cover verified as being an "A" cover and not a "B". My understanding is that the timing pin is in a different location.

Ken

Pilotdave · 02-03-2013, 12:39 PM

Waiting with bated breath to hear how the latest test turned out!

IF (and I hope this isn't the case) the problem is still there, a possibility (suggested above several times) is that the terminal bolt heads on the terminal block are intermittently grounding to the firewall. I have installed a reproduction block in our Tudor as the old one disintegrated. I made some insulators using punch outs from an old tube - they fit into the hole in the terminal block between the bolt head and the firewall. I did it as a precaution, not because I was having a problem. It COULD be a factor in this situation.

t42 · 02-03-2013, 01:27 PM

sgw904,
I typically don't look in the model A forum, but your problem is very similar to one I had with my 62 Vette. I too had an engine that ran fine when cold and coughed and sputtered when it warmed up. To make a long story short, I found the problem after tearing the fuel system apart. The flakes in my sediment/filter bowl were rubber pieces. Somehow they found their way to the carb jet area and got lodged in the small gas opening to the jets. As the engine warmed up the rubber particles expanded from the heat and choked off the gas supply. I was surprised to find this down stream of the filter, but after a complete cleaning of the carb and replacement of all rubber hoses, it now runs as strong as ever.
Good luck, I hope you find a cure.

P.S. · 02-03-2013, 02:53 PM

10 pages and still no answers....

Tom Wesenberg · 02-03-2013, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.S.

10 pages and still no answers....

Lots of answers, just not sure which is the right one.

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 02-03-2013, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Lots of answers, just not sure which is the right one.

...........

P.S. · 02-03-2013, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Lots of answers, just not sure which is the right one.

Right! That's what I meant.

BILL WILLIAMSON · 02-03-2013, 04:27 PM

Or maybe problems "created" while tryin' to find the original problem??? These are SIMPLE CARS. Bill W.

George Miller · 02-03-2013, 05:36 PM

I do not think we will ever hear what was really wrong.

Fred K-OR · 02-03-2013, 05:51 PM

What is the "rest of the story"?

austinhunt · 02-03-2013, 06:55 PM

Does it use any coolant? I had an off topic car that had a bad head gasket, from what I can tell it would spew water into the cylinder(turn to steam) making compression more difficult and would also blow air out when the intake valve was open. This happened only after the car was warm... maybe it was a crack in the head or the beat up head gasket. I never cared to find out which because I just changed both.

02-02-2013, 09:56 AM	#181
MikeK Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Windy City Posts: 2,919	Re: Who Can Diagnose THIS Total Mystery? Win A Prize? I've used these with 100% success on propane, refrigerant, and hydraulic flares that wouldn't otherwise seal. Available made from several different materials to match the app. LINK "When inserted into a fitting, the concentric rings form multiple seals down the face of the flare, while the Loctite coating fills minor imperfections, dramatically increasing the integrity of the fitting. New ISO and NFPA standards strongly recommend seals for all fittings."

02-02-2013, 10:57 AM	#182
H. L. Chauvin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,179	Re: Who Can Diagnose THIS Total Mystery? Win A Prize? I had a copper fuel line from the Model A fire wall to the carburetor. Because of constant vibration, generated heat, & metal fatigue, while working the copper fuel line back & forth, the copper hardened and fractured at the connection on the carburetor end & leaked gasoline. (This fracture occurred in about (2) weeks & resembled taking a steel coat hanger, working it bach & forth in one short area until it breaks). Next, I provided about a 6" diameter loop in the middle of a longer new copper line so that the copper line's loop could flex over a large area & it never broke again. I saw someone's photo on this Forum sometime ago, of a loop provided in a Model A copper fuel line from fire wall to carburetor. Last edited by H. L. Chauvin; 02-02-2013 at 11:11 AM. Reason: typo

02-02-2013, 12:46 PM	#185
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Who Can Diagnose THIS Total Mystery? Win A Prize? I'd buy a new correct steel fuel line from a Model A parts house. Hopefully one is close. otherwise the shipping will probably be more than the part. Maybe get a few guys in the club that need parts and make one larger group order.

02-02-2013, 07:03 PM	#186
Old182 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Newburgh, NY Posts: 222	Re: Who Can Diagnose THIS Total Mystery? Win A Prize? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) The issue of vapor lock has come up several times in this thread. While I suppose it's possible, it's unlikely in this case. Here are a few tidbits of information to chew on: Gasoline is made up of about 200 different hydrocarbons that all boil at different temperatures. In a distillation flask, 10 volume % of most gasolines have boiled under 50 to 70F and all must finish boiling at or before 437F to meet ASTM D4814, the spec for gasoline in the U.S. Butanes and pentanes are added to gasolines for "front end" volatility (cold starts); butane boiling at 31F, pentane at 97F. From there heavier components are added until the gasoline composition is complete with most gasolines finishing at around 400F (aviation and racing gasolines way below that). The point here is that you may see gasoline bubbling in a clear filter or fuel line, or you may hear it in the carburetor bowl, but that isn't an indication of vapor lock; it's just the light ends boiling. Once the engine is warm, it will run fine with the mid-range and higher boiling components (even though some light ends remain). No offense meant to those suggesting vapor lock. I don't have any data, but I think to boil off enough fuel to cause vapor lock you would have to see actual sustained fuel temperatures well over 325F, maybe higher. May be possible. Another $0.02.

02-02-2013, 07:05 PM	#187
Tom in SW VA Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Richlands, VA Posts: 533	Re: Who Can Diagnose THIS Total Mystery? Win A Prize? [QUOTE=BRENT in 10-uh-C;579471]Well I would start by making it happen all over again and at the moment that the symptoms arise, do a little diagnostic work. First off, "just won't go" means different things to different folks but to me it means the engine stops running. At that point I would immediately (without touching/fiddling with anything else) remove the coil wire and hold it about ¼" away from a good ground source while someone cranks the engine over. The evidence of the jumping spark will tell a lot. During this same time I would feel the carburetor bowl and the fuel line for a temperature reading. If either is excessively hot, I would find the reason why. Personally I suspect it to be electrical like a worn/loose wire inside the distributor. Ironically, when something like this comes into my shop, I first start checking for areas where "McGuyvering" has taken place followed closely thereafter by looking for reproduction parts. I have seen repro terminal box screws come loose and short out against the firewall, and I have seen poor quality wiring harnesses have loose terminal ends do exactly as you stated. I have never seen a situation that could not be solved when enough time & prudent thought were given towards the problem. I can personally attest to the fact that the problem could very well be the terminal box attachment to the firewall. Loose screws or the lack of insulation spacers can and will cause the car to stop running without notice. Just a thought.

02-02-2013, 07:28 PM	#188
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Who Can Diagnose THIS Total Mystery? Win A Prize? Has the ignition switch been checked for gas tank clearance? Many repro switch terminals will touch or come very close to touching the gas tank. I had to bend my terminals to the side on my 29 Tudor with an aftermarket switch.

02-03-2013, 11:43 AM	#190
rally 1 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 171	Re: Who Can Diagnose THIS Total Mystery? Win A Prize? By any chance, was the timing cover verified as being an "A" cover and not a "B". My understanding is that the timing pin is in a different location. Ken

02-03-2013, 12:39 PM	#191
Pilotdave Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Grafton, MA Posts: 1,226	Re: Who Can Diagnose THIS Total Mystery? Win A Prize? Waiting with bated breath to hear how the latest test turned out! IF (and I hope this isn't the case) the problem is still there, a possibility (suggested above several times) is that the terminal bolt heads on the terminal block are intermittently grounding to the firewall. I have installed a reproduction block in our Tudor as the old one disintegrated. I made some insulators using punch outs from an old tube - they fit into the hole in the terminal block between the bolt head and the firewall. I did it as a precaution, not because I was having a problem. It COULD be a factor in this situation.

02-03-2013, 01:27 PM	#192
t42 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: MN. Posts: 253	Re: Who Can Diagnose THIS Total Mystery? Win A Prize? sgw904, I typically don't look in the model A forum, but your problem is very similar to one I had with my 62 Vette. I too had an engine that ran fine when cold and coughed and sputtered when it warmed up. To make a long story short, I found the problem after tearing the fuel system apart. The flakes in my sediment/filter bowl were rubber pieces. Somehow they found their way to the carb jet area and got lodged in the small gas opening to the jets. As the engine warmed up the rubber particles expanded from the heat and choked off the gas supply. I was surprised to find this down stream of the filter, but after a complete cleaning of the carb and replacement of all rubber hoses, it now runs as strong as ever. Good luck, I hope you find a cure.

02-03-2013, 02:53 PM	#193
P.S. Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: California Posts: 1,687	Re: Who Can Diagnose THIS Total Mystery? Win A Prize? 10 pages and still no answers....

02-03-2013, 04:27 PM	#197
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: Who Can Diagnose THIS Total Mystery? Win A Prize? Or maybe problems "created" while tryin' to find the original problem??? These are SIMPLE CARS. Bill W. __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

02-03-2013, 05:36 PM	#198
George Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NC Posts: 2,975	Re: Who Can Diagnose THIS Total Mystery? Win A Prize? I do not think we will ever hear what was really wrong.

02-03-2013, 05:51 PM	#199
Fred K-OR Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Stayton, Oregon Posts: 3,806	Re: Who Can Diagnose THIS Total Mystery? Win A Prize? What is the "rest of the story"? __________________ Fred Kroon 1929 Std Coupe 1929 Huckster

02-03-2013, 06:55 PM	#200
austinhunt Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska Posts: 7	Re: Who Can Diagnose THIS Total Mystery? Win A Prize? Does it use any coolant? I had an off topic car that had a bad head gasket, from what I can tell it would spew water into the cylinder(turn to steam) making compression more difficult and would also blow air out when the intake valve was open. This happened only after the car was warm... maybe it was a crack in the head or the beat up head gasket. I never cared to find out which because I just changed both.