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Old 10-29-2012, 01:05 PM   #21
wrndln
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Default Re: Second version of the throttle assembly

Rod,
Thanks for looking through your stash of throttle assemblies. I can't believe not one second version assembly has surfaced in this discussion. I agree, it would be nice if some people from the judging guideline committee would chime in and state if they had one to make the sketch in the guidelines or it was just someones memory of seeing one in the past.
Rusty Nelson
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Old 10-29-2012, 07:25 PM   #22
Tom Wesenberg
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Default Re: Second version of the throttle assembly



My 9-27-28 has the same one sphanna posted in #11, so I'm thinking this is the second design, and the second picture in the J/S may not exist.

Also notice my washer and cotter pin are missing from the linkage.
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Old 10-29-2012, 10:41 PM   #23
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Default Re: Second version of the throttle assembly

Thanks Tom and Don for your posts.
Tom, assuming your Sept 28 A hasn't been messed with, it should have version 2, but doesn't. I am starting to think the second version might have been a part that was never produced - maybe drawing only?
Don,
Thanks for the information about the throttle assemble concerning the JS Committee.
Rusty Nelson
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Old 10-30-2012, 10:07 AM   #24
d.j. moordigian
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Default Re: Second version of the throttle assembly

Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian View Post
My mid August 28 also has the 3rd. style which "holds no water" since the
engine and transmission were changed out long before I purchased it in 1965.
After looking this weekend, my car has the "flat bottom" style of throttle
assembly! Sorry, I didn't look for a part number, the "flu" has a good
grip on the body...
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:11 PM   #25
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Default Re: Second version of the throttle assembly

I agree with Rowdy...How about it MARC/MAFCA Judging Standards Committee Members...what is the story on these?

OPPS...SORRY DID NOT SEE DON'S POST BUT IS THERE MORE TO THE STORY?

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Old 11-13-2012, 06:12 PM   #26
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Default Re: Second version of the throttle assembly

I hate having to start over on research that was thought to be done but it happens. This is far from completed but I thought the preliminary findings were worth putting out here so folks could offer feedback. Thanks to Rusty for bringing something to light that should have been discovered during the initial research.

As I noted in the other related thread by Steve Plucker, the drawing and info on the "type 2" depicted in the Standards was likely direct from a Ford drawing. However I have a few examples of such drawings where the item was either never put into production in exactly the depicted form OR was used so briefly that matching items cannot be found. To make it even more interesting, the version that WAS produced during the described period not only did not quite match any drawing, the unique characteristics of the production version are not even described in the detailed engineering changes. They made many changes on the fly (especially in 1928) that were either documented much later or superseded before ever being recorded in their exact form.

I've been compiling bits of information and comparing notes with Doug Clayton. It's quite clear that the depicted version for #2 was either never produced or was done so for such a brief period it almost becomes moot. Here is how it looks at this point in time.

The A-9725 throttle control assembly was made from several pieces with the primary part being the A-9728 Accelerator Bracket. The bracket was initially a steel forging which is extremely strong but relatively expensive to produce depending on the shape. Later the bracket was changed to a malleable casting. Type 1 (early '28) clearly used a forged bracket.

In doing my homework I discovered that for a short time (not precisely defined) Ford made the bracket from TWO forgings, A-9748 right half and A-9749 left half. That is what you will clearly see in the photo below from Steve Hanna. Note the weld seam as well as the sharp small forging ID marks to the right of the right mounting hole. This is what I believe is the actual type 2, or at the very least type 2-b quickly replacing the depicted version.



Closely coinciding with the introduction of the type 2 there were two additional parts added. These were A-9731 Oil Wick and A-9733 Oil Plug. I'm guessing the "plug" was the cup that was pressed into the oil holes on the top of the bracket and the wick was a piece of felt. This was brought to my attention in a pic from Tom Wesenberg a few years ago. These APPEAR to be present in the pic below from Rusty.

I can't tell for sure if this assembly is a forging or the newer casting. Some two piece brackets have more subtle welds and need to be looked at very closely. Hopefully Rusty can add some info. If it's a two piece forging it's essentially the same as the one shown above. If it's a casting then I'd call it type 3-a. Note the "flat bottom" below the bell crank.



Here is the second pic from Rusty. Note the change in the bracket supporting the bell crank. It no longer has a flat bottom. This is the traditional type 3 which may be "3-b" depending on the answer to my question above.


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Old 11-13-2012, 06:49 PM   #27
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Default Re: Second version of the throttle assembly

Marco,

I have the type1 style "throttle" ass. and what I consider the type 2 "flat bottom" style.
The type 2, "felt" is below the the shaft, in the oilier holes. Yes, 2 piece forging, along
with all the arms, except for the arm that the "button" is screwed to,it is half forging
and half steel rod welded together. The left half of the bracket has the forging number
A-9749 on the vertical leg.

Dudley

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Old 11-13-2012, 08:28 PM   #28
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Default Re: Second version of the throttle assembly

Thanks Marco for looking into the throttle assembly question. I dug through my stash of throttle assemblies again and found two forgings or casting of the style that has the straight area below the bell crank. One is like Steve Hanna's - welded together which is the first picture below. The place that is welded is where Steve's is joined, however it is a little hard to see, but it is there. The second picture is an assembly with a straight area below the bell crank forging or casting and is one piece. I am sure the second assembly is one piece unless the maker of it was so perfect, that no trace of a welded joint remains as there are no grind marks or remnants of where the joint would have been. This would mean that there are at least two styles of the straight type. It just keeps getting stranger.
Rusty Nelson





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Old 11-13-2012, 09:32 PM   #29
d.j. moordigian
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Default Re: Second version of the throttle assembly

Rusty, here you go........see the "flash line" on the inside(top of the bottom part of
the bracket...that's a forging line). Also note the black speck in the center of the photo,
that is the "felt".
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:09 PM   #30
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Default Re: Second version of the throttle assembly





I think these might be the photos I showed to Marco some years ago. The one shows the stamped steel oil cups which are pressed into the holes. This is the one that came on my 9-27-28 Phaeton.
The other picture shows the weld seam on a similar style with the flat bottom and spacer for the bell crank.
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:34 AM   #31
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Default Re: Second version of the throttle assembly

The "spacer" on the vertical shaft for the bell crank is part of the shaft, machined
from one piece of material.

In photo #29, the shaft that goes from one end to the other(with the forged arm
pinned too it), there is a " split sleeve spacer" slid onto the shaft.

Tom,...great photo of the "oil cup",...never seen one. Thanks
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:00 PM   #32
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Default Re: Second version of the throttle assembly

Marco,

When was the,.." A-9733 OIL PLUG" first introduced? I don't remember seeing
one. Tom's "forged" example doesn't have one / missing,...his "cast" one does.

Dudley
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:07 PM   #33
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Default Re: Second version of the throttle assembly

Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian View Post
The "spacer" on the vertical shaft for the bell crank is part of the shaft, machined
from one piece of material.

In photo #29, the shaft that goes from one end to the other(with the forged arm
pinned too it), there is a " split sleeve spacer" slid onto the shaft.

Tom,...great photo of the "oil cup",...never seen one. Thanks
I wonder if they all came with the "oil cup" and "felt" originally but most have dissapeared over the last 80 plus years????>

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Old 11-15-2012, 07:10 PM   #34
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Default Re: Second version of the throttle assembly

This is good stuff guys! I've got more to add as well as a few questions. This is still early in the process.

In my notes below I will toss in a couple dates from the records. It is IMPORTANT to realize those dates only offer a guide as to original intent at best and actual usage may be either earlier or later, or both.

1. My research indicates the oil wick and cup as shown in Tom's pic came into play pretty early and MAY be in the last version of the type-1 control. That would likely mean a slightly different forging shape to allow space for the wick pocket. This would be a type-1b if it exists.

2. It's now my understanding there IS an existing example of the illustrated type-2 except it SHOULD have the flat bottom as opposed to the way it was drawn. This would be type-2a and should include the oil wick and cup. I still need to confirm the existence.

3. Type-2b would be the one piece forging as shown in Tom's pic with the oil cups shown here. Also Rusty didn't respond to my curiosity on what appears to be inserts in the oil holes in the next pic. The oil "plugs" as well as the wicks were first documented 4/5/28. The plugs were documented as obsolete 7/30/28 and the felt oil wicks obsolete 2/11/29. Assuming the plugs are indeed the cups we see in some one piece forged brackets that makes them among the earliest of the"type-2" assemblies.





4. Dudley brought out some good info with his pic below and corresponding notes. If I understood correctly my added notes should be useful. This is the two piece forging which I will call "type-2c". I've not found much info on the two piece except supposedly it was obsolete 9/28/28. I suspect it was continued longer.



5. Now a note about forgings vs. castings. Folks confuse forgings with castings due to the texture on the surface of the finished product. I won't get into malleable or nodular casting but in simple terms it's it's still pouring a molten alloy into a mold of some sort. In simple terms, forging is the reshaping of solid chunks of steel under extreme heat, generally between two dies (hence the parting line).

The latter is unquestionably far stronger but limited in the type of shapes that can be produced. Forging also retains the grain of the original steel over the length of the item. This is much like the grain of a strip of lumber and it's strength along the grain. If you steam bend such a board into a "U" shape the grain follows that shape and the strength is retained.



The cast version should be slightly thicker throughout but in the pic above I've outlined differences that SHOULD consistently define one from the other. At the present time I strongly suspect the forged bracket was used into early 1929. That may be a stretch but with the help of you guys looking at some cars it should be easy to nail down.



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Last edited by Marco Tahtaras; 11-15-2012 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 11-15-2012, 07:55 PM   #35
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Default Re: Second version of the throttle assembly

Marco,

You have 1 thing incorrect the "split sleeve" is a spacer that buts up against
the passenger side of the assembly,...it's hidden by the spring.
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Old 11-15-2012, 08:11 PM   #36
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Default Re: Second version of the throttle assembly

Marco,
I didn't know you wanted information from me on the second picture in the above post. I just checked the throttle assembly in the second picture and there ARE oil cups with small holes in the bottom of each cup in both places. Of the 5 or 6 throttle assemblies of this type I have, this is the only one that has oil cups. The rest just have holes in the forgings or castings. I didn't check the diameter of the holes in the other assemblies to see if there might have been cups present in the past. I think the cup type assemblies probably have a little larger hole for the cups to fit in. The throttle assembly with the oil cups looks like a forging as there are grind marks on the edges where it looks like someone ground off the excess material. I don't think casting are usually ground like that, but I could be wrong.

BTW, I measured the mounting bosses and the bosses on the assembly in the second picture of mine Marco posted are just slightly less the 5/16", which I guess means it is a forging.
Rusty Nelson
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Old 11-15-2012, 08:32 PM   #37
Marco Tahtaras
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Default Re: Second version of the throttle assembly

Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian View Post
Marco,

You have 1 thing incorrect the "split sleeve" is a spacer that buts up against
the passenger side of the assembly,...it's hidden by the spring.
Thanks, fixed it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrndln View Post
Marco,
I didn't know you wanted information from me on the second picture in the above post. I just checked the throttle assembly in the second picture and there ARE oil cups with small holes in the bottom of each cup in both places. Of the 5 or 6 throttle assemblies of this type I have, this is the only one that has oil cups. The rest just have holes in the forgings or castings. I didn't check the diameter of the holes in the other assemblies to see if there might have been cups present in the past. I think the cup type assemblies probably have a little larger hole for the cups to fit in. The throttle assembly with the oil cups looks like a forging as there are grind marks on the edges where it looks like someone ground off the excess material. I don't think casting are usually ground like that, but I could be wrong.

BTW, I measured the mounting bosses and the bosses on the assembly in the second picture of mine Marco posted are just slightly less the 5/16", which I guess means it is a forging.
Rusty Nelson
Thanks Rusty,

I need to review what I posted (or forgot to) but after spending more than half a day on this I need to give it a couple days. However here are a few thoughts / questions.

1. I would think those (and only those) with the cups will have the tops ground or machined flat for the cup as noted on Tom's pic.

2. I'm suspecting NO two piece forgings have the cups. We know SOME one piece forgings have the cups but do all of them? If not, were they flattened (ground) or otherwise prepared for cups?
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:55 PM   #38
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Default Re: Second version of the throttle assembly

OK Guys,

We're on a roll here but I need help to keep it moving forward and attempt to establish a timeline. I've stated several preliminary conclusions. I suspect most will prove to be true but confirmation is important. I didn't emphasize that the unknowns or suppositions were actually questions which I need help confirming or filling in blanks. I'll specify some of the needs here so folks can see if they can help.

For those with a stash of throttle controls:

1. Oil wick cup - I didn't ask yet but wonder if those that do have the cup in place may have a felt wick between the cup and the shaft. Can you see the shaft looking through the hole in the cup? If it's been blasted there may still be part of the felt caked around the edges.

2. Oil wick cup or no oil wick cup - I showed the two-piece forging vs. the one piece. Don't confuse a cast version, I show how to distinguish them above.

- Are there any one-piece forgings WITHOUT the cup?

- Are there any two-piece forgings WITH the cup?

It appears those with a cup were prepared for it by grinding or machining the top surface perfectly flat for the rim of the cup to seat on while others likely remain irregular. The hole may be bored larger than non-cup units as well. Any finding on this is useful

3. Interested in any other variants (even seemingly subtle) of the two forged types and first cast type as outlined above.

For those with early 1928 through early '29 cars:

4. Ok, this is pretty simple EXCEPT it may be difficult to spot the seam on the two-piece forging from the engine compartment on the drivers side. It may be doable with a flashlight and mirror.

We really need to know which of the types outlined above are present including the presence of oil cups or not, along with the best available date reference of the vehicle. Original engine/frame number is most useful, but a gas tank date offers some value.

Obviously many cars have mismatched parts for various reasons so results will be mixed. This can generally be sorted out.

Lastly, I forgot to mention that it's entirely possible that two types were both used for a period of time as alternate designs although part number suffixes don't support that. If we receive a large enough sampling we'll have a very good idea.

Thanks guys!
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:18 PM   #39
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Default Re: Second version of the throttle assembly

Forged 1 piece no "cup"...kinda crappie photo...but you get the gist.
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:30 PM   #40
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Default Re: Second version of the throttle assembly

Forged 1 piece with cup...yep another crappie photo...hard too see but the
top, were the cup seats, is sanded/ground..
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