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Old 07-25-2020, 11:50 AM   #1
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Default Decided to pull the motor/trans

So, I had done the valves and guides (they were shot) in hopes of fixing an oil consumption problem (1qt in 60 miles) to no avail. It ran sweet but still uses the same amount of oil. So, I pulled the head and dropped the pan so I could pull the pistons and check them out. When I had the head off to do the valves, I noticed that the cylinders were glazed but there was no ridge so was thinking a deglazing and new rings should do the trick. Nope. Has .0100 over pistons (for a 3.975 bore) and the bores mic'ed 3.986 and the rings had a gap of 1/8-3/16". There was also some scoring on the walls and pistons, mostly at the bottom of the cylinders. So, after some pondering, I decided to hone the cylinders out to 4" and put .0125 over pistons in. I did #1 cylinder in the car but found that the amount of metal dust produced was such that there was NO WAY I would be able to clean the bottom end sufficiently so I pulled the engine/trans to do it on the stand. In so doing, I found a few other issues that need to be dealt with. The oddest one was that one motor mount was broken. The face that bolts to the block was broke straight across the middle then up and around the edge so that the top bolt was not holding anything, just the broken square from the mount. NO IDEA how that could/would break that way. Also, the pressure plate fingers wee WAY out of whack (possibly explaining the clutch chatter when taking off). Two fingers were 1/8" plus lower than the others. A screw was missing from the bottom generator mount and the other was loose. Also found that the teeth on the ring gear are chewed but they are chewed on the backside which suggests to me that the ring gear was turned around as I would think that any grinding should occur on the front edge of the teeth where the bendix engages. It never made any noise when cranking so I think I will just leave that for now. Cylinders also had a wicked taper which takes some doing to remover (about .008 tighter at the bottom). Anyway, I'm going to try to set my clearances with a micrometer since the engine is out and on the stand. Mic the journal, then mic the corresponding "circle" and adjust for .0015 difference. The cam shows, what looks to me like, a fair amount of wear. The clutch disc looks OK but is solid. Not sure if it's worth putting a new spring damped disc in or not.
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Old 07-25-2020, 12:03 PM   #2
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

Valve guides in any engine will not cause that much oil consumption. Ringing it properly is a good thing. But, with .008" taper I would recommend sending it out for boring. I prefer to leave the piston clearances a bit on the wide/loose side. But, thats just me.
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Old 07-25-2020, 12:20 PM   #3
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

At 37 bucks change the clutch disc every time,especially if it chatters.generally when the cylinder bores are worn and the valve guides are shot every other component is worn..bearings,distributor drive,oil pump,everything should get a full inspection.
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Old 07-25-2020, 01:51 PM   #4
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

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Valve guides in any engine will not cause that much oil consumption. Ringing it properly is a good thing. But, with .008" taper I would recommend sending it out for boring. I prefer to leave the piston clearances a bit on the wide/loose side. But, thats just me.
I already removed the taper and brought the cylinders to 4" (the pistons mic 3.998). well, 3 are done, one to go.
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Old 07-25-2020, 01:59 PM   #5
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

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At 37 bucks change the clutch disc every time,especially if it chatters.generally when the cylinder bores are worn and the valve guides are shot every other component is worn..bearings,distributor drive,oil pump,everything should get a full inspection.
already checked out the oil pump and distributor drive, all good. Bearings look good and of course will have the clearances set on assembly. Timing gears are good but cam shows wear. Cam bearings feel good. Release bearing and pilot bearing appear new. Good point on the disc. ordering it will delay assembly but I have a lot of detail work I can do while I wait. What I find odd is that the cylinders APPEAR to be worn (based on measurements) but there was zero ridge at the top of the cylinders leading me to think that maybe someone botched a bore job. I can't think of any way that a cylinder can wear that much and not leave a ridge.
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Old 07-25-2020, 02:08 PM   #6
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

I'll deal with only one item. The ring gear needs the rounded side of the teeth at the rear as it sits in the chassis. When you remove the starter the bendix goes past the ring gear and comes forward to engage, the rounded end of each tooth aids in engaging. same for the bendix, rounded end is the engage side.
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Old 07-25-2020, 03:25 PM   #7
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

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I'll deal with only one item. The ring gear needs the rounded side of the teeth at the rear as it sits in the chassis. When you remove the starter the bendix goes past the ring gear and comes forward to engage, the rounded end of each tooth aids in engaging. same for the bendix, rounded end is the engage side.
Ah yes, I see that now. I never paid much attention. It's "backwards" from what I am used to. I'll change out the gear. Thanks
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Old 07-25-2020, 03:27 PM   #8
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

I see I have some up and down movement in the input shaft in the trans. Don't know what that means But I'm going to tear the tranny down and look things over while everything is out.
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Old 07-25-2020, 03:57 PM   #9
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

Engine doesn't have cam bearings,up and down play on the trans input shaft is normal,the pilot bearing in the flywheel supports it. Good news about the bearings,thats expensive work saved
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Old 07-25-2020, 06:46 PM   #10
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

Tore the tranny down. Gears are rounded on the tips and one tooth on one (don't recall which one) has a small chip. Not sure what to do there. $1000 for all new guts for a car that will see MAYBE 1000 miles a year???. Trans works well but would jump out of second when pulling. Hate to put it back together as is but...........I've got tomorrow to ponder and look them over again. Interesting note, Rather than two roller bearings and a spacer in the cluster it had three roller bearings. two short and one long. Also, rather than snap rings to hold the main bearings, there is a ridge cast into the case. Sure this is a model year thing just don't know enough about these to know what year.
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Old 07-26-2020, 02:51 AM   #11
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

Jumping out of gear will only get worse. Fix it while it is out.
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Old 07-26-2020, 07:39 AM   #12
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

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Jumping out of gear will only get worse. Fix it while it is out.
I can't seem to see anything that will cause it. Makes it hard to "fix".
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Old 07-26-2020, 09:48 AM   #13
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

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I can't think of any way that a cylinder can wear that much and not leave a ridge.
Model T's do that, the top ring comes right to the top of the cylinder w/the piston sticking up above the block. Maybe the pistons you removed are like that?

Quote:
I already removed the taper and brought the cylinders to 4" (the pistons mic 3.998). well, 3 are done, one to go.
Is .002" piston clearance enough on these engines?
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Last edited by katy; 07-26-2020 at 09:49 AM. Reason: Corrected typo
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Old 07-26-2020, 10:06 AM   #14
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

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Model T's do that, the top ring comes right to the top of the cylinder w/the piston sticking up above the block. Maybe the pistons you removed are like that?



Is .002" piston clearance enough on these engines?
The pistons are level with the deck @TDC so the top ring will be down a bit from that. I thought .002 was a bit tight also but that is the spec that I found and I looked for verification from a few different sources. All say .002.
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Old 07-26-2020, 12:23 PM   #15
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

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I can't seem to see anything that will cause it. Makes it hard to "fix".
Check the dent plungers and spring, the plungers need to slide freely.
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Old 07-26-2020, 12:31 PM   #16
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

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Model T's do that, the top ring comes right to the top of the cylinder w/the piston sticking up above the block. Maybe the pistons you removed are like that?



Is .002" piston clearance enough on these engines?
NO! #3&#4 with the larger bores at 4inches need .004 clearance. The two back clylinders run hotter than the front two. I would make all four .004 clearance, Someone had problems with his engine seizing, after several tear downs he increased the bore clearances to .004 and his problem was solved.
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Old 07-26-2020, 12:34 PM   #17
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

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NO! #3 with the larger bores at 4inches need .004 clearance. The two back clylinders run hotter than the front two. I would make all four .004 clearance, Someone had problems with his engine seizing, after several tear downs he increased the bore clearances to .004 and his problem was solved.
Sounds reasonable. I haven't done the final finish hone yet so can easily add a thou or two. It would actually make me feel better anyway as .002 seems pretty tight to me. Thanks
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Old 07-26-2020, 09:18 PM   #18
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

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NO! #3 with the larger bores at 4inches need .004 clearance. The two back clylinders run hotter than the front two. I would make all four .004 clearance, Someone had problems with his engine seizing, after several tear downs he increased the bore clearances to .004 and his problem was solved.
That's what I was thinking about as the water jacket on these engines doesn't go all the way down on the cylinder, just the top part is liquid cooled.
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Old 07-26-2020, 11:15 PM   #19
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

Input shaft of tranny will wiggle a little. Since you have it apart, verify bearing is good, ie smooth. I would be tempted to replace all the bearings while it’s apart, but at least a thorough examination.
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Old 08-04-2020, 11:00 PM   #20
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

Update. Motor and trans are back together and in the car. The motor got new pistons and rings, {.0125 over), cylinders honed to .004 piston/wall clearance, checked bearing clearances, all but one were between -0015 and .002, the other was about .0025 so I removed one shim, replaced head studs and replaced the ring gear. Trans was disassembled and inspected, replaced both shafts and rebuilt the shifter ball. Trans case and tower powder coated black as well as the clam shell halves. Motor and bell housing painted ford green. Have put on about 180 miles, runs great and no sign of oil use. far cry from the 1qt per 60 miles before.
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Old 08-05-2020, 05:13 AM   #21
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

Good !
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Old 08-05-2020, 07:54 AM   #22
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

Great ! Enjoy !
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Old 08-05-2020, 08:32 AM   #23
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

.125 over will be a great runner.....fast on the highway.
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Old 08-05-2020, 09:19 AM   #24
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.125 over will be a great runner.....fast on the highway.
That it does. Before, it ran nice at 40-45 MPH but would start to vibrate at 50 and vibrate something fierce over 50. Now, runs nice up to 55 (will go faster but I'm not interested in going faster) with very little vibration. By "very little" I don't mean smooth as butter like a modern car just that it doesn't act like it's going to shake itself to pieces. I still run it around 45 just to keep the RPM in what seems like a reasonable zone. It does have ONE thing that annoys me and that is valve ticking. Not sure what to make of it as I know we (a buddy of mine and me) set them at .012 as recommended. Being solid lifters this may be normal but I don't recall hearing it on other cars running posted online. Might have to recheck all my valve clearances. I don't have adjustable lifters so if I have to re-adjust them, it will be a PITA (ANOTHER head gasket ). Another issue is that the trans is leaking. Pretty sure it's from the tower gasket (and I use that term loosely). Gasket looked like it was made from writing paper. Will check that out today and if that is the issue, will go with silicone.
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Old 08-05-2020, 10:59 AM   #25
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

Pulled the floor to fix trans leak and found that it was leaking because I hadn't tightened the bolts in the shift tower. Also found out why the leak was getting progressively worse. Figured that since it was laking the trans would be low so i pulled the filler plug to top it up and found that, in fact it was over full with a mixture of oil and grease. Obviously the corn head grease that I put in the ujojnt is going through the bearing into the trans. No wonder it was easy to shift. drained the "oil" from the trans and refilled. Will have to monitor it I guess. Not sure what is the best route to take on the joint. Let it find it's level?, put chassis grease in it?, remove the CH grease first? (not sure how to do that). Might have just put way too much and forced it into the trans (took just over a tube).
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Old 08-05-2020, 12:35 PM   #26
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

The next time you pull the trans you might check the second third sliding gear on the main shaft, you said it was jumping out of gear. Ford recommended changing that if the main shaft needed replace, many people concluded Henry was trying to sell parts. You can check that by grabbing the gear when the tower is off and try to move the gear by a wobble on the shaft. The amount of clearance necessary should be only enough so that the gear slides slowly on the shaft with oil in a vertical position. Been there done that, and it’s not always the easy fix by tightening the spring and plungers in the shift tower. Bearings on your main shaft will swap oil and or grease if those bearings don’t have seals in them. Leaking from the trans to the front of the bell housing, can be eliminated with a real deal transmission seal from Mitchell.
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Old 08-08-2020, 02:05 AM   #27
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

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Sounds reasonable. I haven't done the final finish hone yet so can easily add a thou or two. It would actually make me feel better anyway as .002 seems pretty tight to me. Thanks
What sort of hone are you using? I did not think you could go up a size with just a hone, not criticizing, it is the sort of thing I would like to do.

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Old 08-08-2020, 09:23 AM   #28
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What sort of hone are you using? I did not think you could go up a size with just a hone, not criticizing, it is the sort of thing I would like to do.

Brendan
I used a micrometer hone and bore dial indicator. Works pretty slick but patience are required. I won't be volunteering to do a V16 anytime soon. 5" stones that alley equal pressure over their entire length. Once you remove the taper it's just a matter of honing until you get your desired bore size. I used a HD Makita 1/2" drill and would get .001-.002 before have to quit to let the drill cool. Tedious job but satisfying when it's done. https://www.amazon.ca/Lisle-LI15000-...24085560&psc=1
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Old 08-08-2020, 10:20 AM   #29
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

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Tore the tranny down. Gears are rounded on the tips and one tooth on one (don't recall which one) has a small chip. Not sure what to do there. $1000 for all new guts for a car that will see MAYBE 1000 miles a year???. Trans works well but would jump out of second when pulling. Hate to put it back together as is but...........I've got tomorrow to ponder and look them over again. Interesting note, Rather than two roller bearings and a spacer in the cluster it had three roller bearings. two short and one long. Also, rather than snap rings to hold the main bearings, there is a ridge cast into the case. Sure this is a model year thing just don't know enough about these to know what year.
Why drive it only a 1000 miles a year. I drive mine between 5000 & 6000 miles a year, drive it enjoy it and you will get way more life out of it between repairs.
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Old 08-08-2020, 02:23 PM   #30
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Why drive it only a 1000 miles a year.
Because our work takes up most of the summer leaving VERY little "me" time and what little time i do get is divided between a few different toys. I addition to this Model A fordor, I have the Model A truck in my avatar, a '57 Chevy short step BBW pickup, a .28 model A sedan and a Solstice to drive in the summer. Last summer I licensed the Solstice, '57 truck and Model A truck and was only able to put less than 1000 mile between the three of them. This year I licensed the Model A fordor, '57 truck and Solstice and have put 1 drive on the Solstice (about 100 miles), a few drives on the '57 (maybe 300 miles) and 800 miles on the fordor. In a couple weeks work will start back up and that will be it for the toys for this year. I drive one of them every chance i get, just not a lot of chances.
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Old 08-08-2020, 05:23 PM   #31
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Default Re: Decided to pull the motor/trans

That sucks, but on the bright side you still have a job.
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Old 08-09-2020, 09:14 AM   #32
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That sucks, but on the bright side you still have a job.
Self employed. Pretty good gig actually if you can tolerate the VERY abbreviated summer. Don't work in the winter so lets of time to work on my toys.
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