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Old 07-24-2020, 03:57 AM   #1
V8COOPMAN
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Default PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

More and more these days, hobbyists are choosing to use a 1949 through 1953 8BA-type block for their flathead engine build. Many of the folks doing so are also opting to use an early style (prior to 1949) intake manifold on their new combination. Either of the two different iterations of manifolds will bolt-on to the newer blocks, and there are two or three good reasons that some people have decided to use an early intake on a later engine. Problem is that the two different engines were internally designed to accomplish crankcase ventilation via two DIFFERENT methods, and the design of the intake manifolds is very much involved in that process. So, the subject comes-up frequently addressing the necessity to relieve crankcase pressure with this hybrid block/intake combination, as well as the desire to evacuate at least some of the miniscule yuckleberries that are produced as a result of the internal combustion process. If many of these impurities are allowed to remain inside the crankcase and polute the oil, they usually lead to the eventual formation of sludge on the internal engine surfaces. Piston blowby produces pressures in the crankcase which if not relieved, will at the very least cause severe oil leaks at several gasket locations, and there is also the possibility of oil being blown out of the oil fill tube, not to mention the possibility that the oil pan can actually deform from internal pressure. The 'factory-stock' 8BA-type intake manifolds have provision toward the front of the manifold to mount a relatively tall tube which employs a removable BREATHER cap on top that allows an entry path for fresh air into the engine crankcase. By removing this breather cap, lubricating oil can also be poured into the crankcase. Additionally, the 8BA-type manifold has a second boss just forward of the oil fill tube to mount a 'road draft' tube. This tube serves as an exit path for crankcase vapors and pressures which build-up inside the otherwise closed crankcase as a result of the piston blowby. Below is a diagram of how a STOCK 8BA normally ventilates. So, where do we go now? 1










Eons ago, The Automakers came-up with a somewhat more-sophisticated technology for not only evacuating crankcase pressure along with sinister contaminents, but also as a method that would at least partially re-burn these crankcase gasses as a form of pollution control to save the World's atmosphere. Of course, we all know of the PCV valve by now as a precursor to more-sophisticated "smog-eradicating" systems that were yet to come. Almost every new American engine employed a PCV valve in some form by the latter part of the '60s. So, who would'a ever thunk (back then) that we might someday be seeing PCV valves on a flathead Ford engine? Well, for one thing, many 'factory' PCV valve applications have the valve mounted in a rubber-ish grommet inserted into a valve cover. Heck, any die-hard old-timer will promptly remind ya that flatheads ain't got no danged valve covers. So, what the heck here, over? What's up is that some folks a while back figured-out that a satisfactory answer to the above situation of using an early manifold on an 8BA could be accomplished by utilizing a PCV valve 'properly' plumbed and 'reasonably' engineered to restore the attributes lost when replacing the original manifold. 2


So here we are again, Heard Saxon and myself-Dick Davidson (DD), with yet another dinky idea for a contraption that will hopefully help to advance the flathead world in some small way. As I alluded-to a month or so ago, we were in the process of developing a PCV valve application for Heard's brand new, shiny 8BA with an early style Thickstun PM 7 intake manifold. Obviously, quite a few people have 'rigged', adapted...or whatever you want to call it....a PCV valve to one of these engines in the past. I never gave it much thought until Heard asked if I had any ideas on how to go about rigging-up a PCV valve to operate PROPERLY and produce the desired results. So, to have even a reasonable chance of pulling this off successfully, I decided to do a little self-education about PCV system specifics using Al Gore's World-Wide-Webb. My eyes were opened right pronto! 3


I found-out rather quickly that PCV valves work in the exact opposite fashion than I had previously believed....check the drawing/chart below! Of course, PCV valves function based on MANIFOLD vacuum produced by the engine. And you should remember that 4-cycle engines normally produce the LEAST amount of vacuum during wide-open throttle (WOT), such as during hard acceleration or 'gettin' on it'! Conversely, the HIGHEST vacuum reading will be experienced at idle, or when the vehicle is traveling on a level surface at a steady speed, and at a constant throttle setting. PCV valves usually consist of a small container with a tiny movable shuttle inside, as well as a tiny spring with varying tension values dependent upon the specific vehicle application. In general, the valve is designed such that the internal shuttle is aerodynamically shaped such that it is able to move in consideration of, and in conjunction with the airflow AND the spring's tension. My biggest mis-understanding in operation was that the valve allows the MOST flow through it as the vacuum reading is at it's lowest, as in WOT (wide-open throttle). The opposite occurs as the vacuum signal increases, like during idle.....when the internal shuttle allows the LEAST amount of flow. This really makes sense when you realize that during WOT (when vacuum is lowest, and the GREATEST flow through the valve is allowed to occur), the largest volume of blowby is being sent past the rings into the crankcase when the highest cylinder pressures are being generated. Inversely, the least cylinder pressure is being produced at idle (when the highest vacuum readings occur), meaning less blowby, and the LEAST flow through the PCV valve. 4





And concerning these PCV valves, one valve does not 'fit all'. Honestly, there's not enough 'engineer' in me to be able to determine EXACTLY what constitutes the "right choice" when it comes to making an educated decision as to which valve is correct for any particular engine. I happened to come across two different and lengthy equations that supposedly figured-into determining a correct set of parameters for the "right" valve. To me, these equations looked like the figuring that was required to set-up a space vehicle for lower Moon orbit, and return to Earth.....complicated shtuff! So, keeping in mind that these things obviously would have to operate based on the MAXIMUM vacuum value generated by the engine, as well as the POSSIBILITY that cubic inches MAY also have some bearing on all of this, I made a determination based on the facts that Heard's fine engine (built by one of our better-known FordBarn regulars in the Northeast) is 284 cubic inches and has a non-stock performance camshaft. Performance cams generally yield a lower maximum-vacuum value at idle than a stock cam does. I had already decided that we wanted to use one of those small, all-metal, early GM PCV valves with the straight through design (as seen in the pics below), both for structural rigidity reasons (we didn't want to use plastic parts), and the fact that they are sized small-enough to fit in our limited available space, plus the diameters of the two connecting points were easily adaptable to readily-available components. So, working with that 284 cu. in. figure as well as the hi-po cam, I decided to look-up the PCV valve part number used on a 1969 302 cu. in. Z-28 Chevy engine which of course, has a performance camshaft. So that's the one that we procured for this affair, and the actual part number will be shown below with all the other part numbers...........(we've already prepared your COMPLETE shopping list for you below) ! 5






It was stated on more than one occasion that MOST PCV valves will function properly ONLY when oriented or mounted vertically, or straight up and down. Most require gravity to figure into the normal operation. That really got me to thinking about how many of these valves that we've seen pictures of, or heard described as mounted horizontally underneath the intake manifold. Sounds to me like most of those are possibly not functioning correctly, if at all. Plus, when you mount one like that, you damned sure can't keep an eye on the valve, much less change it, without removing the entire intake manifold. MY opinion.....that sucks! So, I (WE) were determined (if at all possible) to rig-up a PCV valve system on this engine that made the valve accessible WITHOUT removal of the manifold, plus, any exposed parts had to be aesthetically pleasing. With that, our parameters were set. 6




And with those requirements, there aren't many options available. The idea for the most-efficient purging of the 8BA crankcase with an early intake manifold is for the fresh air to enter the breather cap on top of a custom oil-fill tube mounted in place of the stock fuel pump stand. We're going to run a remote, electric fuel pump. That air is normally drawn through the upper, rear of the valve chamber, and is drawn down into the lower crankcase. From the lower crankcase, the air is sucked-out via the removable, vertical tube that runs vertically up the front of the valve chamber. The air NORMALLY goes up into a chamber in the STOCK intake manifold and exits through the attached road draft tube that is routed outside and down below the oil pan. The air passing the open end of that road draft tube induces a suction, pulling fresh air through the entire engine crankcase chamber, relieving any built-up pressures and flushing-away the un-wanted vapors. About the only place left in our modified state to mount the PCV valve so that it will function properly, AND so that the PCV valve can be serviced without removing the manifold is to mount it inside the detachable custom oil-fill tube/spacer assembly. 7









Following is a description of our new system as applied, starting in the front of the valve chamber at the removable, vertical tube which fits tightly down into a recessed hole in the block. Heard removed that tube and cut it roughly in half, as can be judged by the picture below. The upper part will no longer be used. The lower piece will have a tapered freeze plug inserted in it's top opening. The tapered freeze plug must be drilled in it's center to accept a BULKHEAD fitting, by 3/8" COMPRESSION fitting on the opposite end. The tapered freeze plug should have the BULKHEAD fitting tightened into the freeze plug, 3/8 COMPRESSION nut pointing UP! The freeze plug should then be hammered snugly into what is now the TOP of the lower piece of the cut-off draft tube. Tap the tube/freeze plug assembly back into the designated hole in front end of valve chamber. Bend a piece of 3/8" soft copper tubing resembling the piece in the accompanying picture. Secure the inverted "U"-shaped end of copper tubing into the 3/8" compression fitting (don't forget your ferrule) mounted in the freeze plug. The remaining straight tail on the copper tubing will lie against the metal tube traversing the length of the valve chamber, secured snugly to that tube with at least two small, screw-type hose clamps. If you shape your copper tube carefully, the configuration will prevent any unlikely chance that the freeze plug would try to raise itself up and out of the big draft tube. The freeze plug is a "Dorman 555-023". The fitting through the freeze plug is described as: "Bulkhead Union 3/8 BULKHEAD COMPRESSION UNION - 18090, IMSBOLT.COM or equivqlent....about $12.00. 8
























Continued Below in Post #2!







………...
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Last edited by V8COOPMAN; 07-26-2020 at 03:05 AM.
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Old 07-24-2020, 03:57 AM   #2
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

CONTINUED




At the rear of the engine, we need to prepare for the PCV valve itself. There are several 'key' pieces involved back there. Let's start with the custom oil-fill tube and breather cap. It's available from Speedway Motors under part # "OTB 6825", $108. This is also where you'll ad engine oil. 9







Below the breather tube is a 1" thick spacer. The spacer is necessary mostly for a surface to drill through to accommodate the special, small 90 degree bulkhead fitting that transitions from outside to downward toward the PCV valve. The spacer comes from an eBay ad, which is actually The Dashman Hot Rod & Speed Parts Co., which can be reached at: 608-637-7167. It's described as...."Fits Stromberg 97 48 Ford Holley 94 Intake Fuel Pump Riser Flathead Spacer 1".....$34.95! It's a beautiful CNC-machined piece of aluminum stock. As can be seen in the pictures, Heard carefully machined a flat surface on the inside of the piece with his milling machine, but the piece could easily be shaped with hand tools if you don't have access to a mill. 10





The next piece is a specialty 90 degree bulkhead fitting. It has a barbed nipple fitting protruding through the 3/4" hole drilled through the flat, milled surface on that spacer. The bottom side of the 90 degree fitting has a female 1/4" NPT threaded hole facing downward, which will accommodate a 1/4" NPT male X 3/8" hose barb fitting inside the spacer, pointing downward. This hose barb will accept a short piece of 3/8" fuel hose which will connect the hose barb to the 3/8" nipple on the top end of the PCV valve. This 90 degree fitting is available at Jeg's and others, described as "ICT Billet 3/8 in. Hose Barb to 1/4" female NPT Bulkhead Adapter Fitting", Jegs part number 551660. $20.49. 11














The GM PCV valve is part number "AC DELCO 19303069". Seems like it was about $7-ish. The nipple faces UP and is connected to the brass hose barb via a short piece of 3/8" fuel hose. 12




The PCV valve sits in a rubberized fitting sized to hold these GM PCV valves. It is a Dorman piece, available at parts stores under "Dorman 46038". The slender appendage on the bottom is sized to accommodate a short piece of 3/8" copper tubing, which will connect the Dorman rubber fitting to the extended-length of 3/8" fuel hose that is long enough that you will be able to unbolt and lift the spacer/breather-tube/PCV valve assembly out of the engine and service the PCV valve, WITHOUT removing the intake manifold. As the assembly is replaced back onto the intake manifold, the assembly must be twisted ONE turn, forming a one-turn loop of the hose down inside the valve chamber. Care must be taken to ensure that the hose does not come in contact with any valve springs as it is inserted. The LOWER end of the 3/8" hose is slipped over the rear end of the long piece of clamped-down copper tubing which leads forward to the freeze plug fitting. 13











The final two pieces of this contraption consist of a 1/4" NPT male X 3/8" compression fitting which threads into the pipe thread hole in the top of the common manifold chamber.....'manifold' vacuum source. The single piece of bent copper tubing is connected to the nipple extending out from the 1" spacer via a short piece of 3/8" hose. The other end at the bottom of the inverted "U"-bend is secured in the compression fitting located between the two carb risers. Clean, functional, and simple! And it might even work. It's certainly looks pretty darned decent. 14












PARTS LIST




3/8" compression bulkhead (through freeze plug): IMSBOLT.com #18090....Also at Good parts stores.
1" Aluminum Spacer...Described as "Fits Stromberg 97 48 Ford Holley 94 Intake Fuel Pump Riser Flathead Spacer 1".....$34.95! Dashman Hot Rod and Speed Parts. 608-637-7167.
PCV boot: Dorman #46038.....May have to order at O'Reilly's or good parts store.
Freeze plug: Dorman #555-023.....Good parts store.
PCV Valve: AC Delco #19303069.....Good parts store, eBay.
90 Degree thingie: Jegs #551660.....Others
3/8" NPT x 1/4" NPT male hose barb - don't have the # but easy to source - Speedway or good parts store.
3/8" compression x 1/4" NPT male - manifold fitting: don't have the # but easy to source - Speedway or good parts store.




Before we finish-up here, I should make it clear that once aagain, Heard and I co-ordinated this project long distance. He's just southwest of Daytona, and I'm located 25 miles or so northeast of downtown Houston. As usual, Heard did all the labor and got the dirty hands, did all of the running-around chasing parts, wrote all of the checks, and even took all of the pictures.. All that I do is make sure my hands stay clean, I point frequently, and I shoot-off my big mouth a lot just like most days here on the forum. In spite of my shortcomings, we still enjoyed putting all of this together, and even though neither of us is offering any kind of guarantees, we do hope that some of these ideas and part numbers might come-in handy for a couple of you's guys in the near future. ANY comments or questions are certainly welcome by either Heard or myself. I'll work on getting a link to this PCV project thread just under the "T5 W/TORQUE TUBE" link already located at the bottom, left of all of my posts for easy future reference. Dick D (DD) 16












………...
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Old 07-24-2020, 07:10 AM   #3
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

Gota figger out how to copy this. Fantastic information. I think this is what Grandchildren is for.
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Old 07-24-2020, 07:26 AM   #4
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Thumbs up Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

Outstanding tutorial!! Thanks for sharing!
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Old 07-24-2020, 08:29 AM   #5
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

Nice job!!!.... thanks for the effort and for sharing it!!... I don’t want no danged yuckleberries in my motor!!!...... Mark
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Old 07-24-2020, 09:52 AM   #6
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

Made a similar solution back in 2004 on my 8RT engine.
Did not use a PCV valve, my reason for this was that Volvo B18/B20 Engines, had a line from the crankcase to the intake and the hole entering the intake was around 2mm, not causing any problem for the engine and keeping the crankcase clean.
Since this was a V8 i used a 2.5mm hole.

I let the pictures do the talking.

By the way i don't own the car now , but the new owner is still driving it without problems.
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Old 07-24-2020, 10:37 AM   #7
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

Nice tutorial, thanks for your effort.
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Old 07-24-2020, 03:07 PM   #8
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

Bloody awesome mate. That’s incredibly well done Coop. Great work & thanks for the great job of sharing all the details.
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Old 07-24-2020, 05:29 PM   #9
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

Well done, Coop and Heard! That's nice work,and good thinking. Should function perfectly.



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Old 07-24-2020, 07:10 PM   #10
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

Thanks fellas! Always fun doing these things and getting feedback from you guys. There is a LOT of experience on this site. WAY more than I have and I always appreciate the input.

I have to say that the most amazing thing to me about this project was the fact the Dorman freeze plug fit perfectly in that draft tube. It has the exact diameter needed.

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Old 07-25-2020, 10:36 AM   #11
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

Excellent write-up Coop. Now all we need is a similar one for the 59A blocks! ;-)
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Old 07-25-2020, 01:58 PM   #12
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

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Excellent write-up Coop. Now all we need is a similar one for the 59A blocks! ;-)

The earlier blocks seem to breathe and relieve (pressure) fairly well in stock configuration. Is it that you just like the idea of using a PCV valve to help the environment.....and to help with the purging of some of the sludge-producing crankcase yuckleberries? I could always think about it if your reasoning is strong enough. DD
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Old 07-26-2020, 05:27 AM   #13
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

Yes, the environment... and the yuckleberries!


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Old 07-26-2020, 04:26 PM   #14
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Excellent presentation, thanx.
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Old 07-27-2020, 12:24 PM   #15
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

I'm just getting into a C8BA using the newer Fenton intake. However, I don't like the looks of the road draft tube so is there a way to hook up a PCV valve and not use the road draft tube?
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Old 07-27-2020, 07:34 PM   #16
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I'm just getting into a C8BA using the newer Fenton intake. However, I don't like the looks of the road draft tube so is there a way to hook up a PCV valve and not use the road draft tube?
Hello Fortunate....This might be interesting, at least to YOU and me. Can you give me an exact model number for that Fenton manifold, or maybe a better description? Can we assume that it IS an intake made for the later '49-'54 engine? No mistake there, the rest of you's guys! The "C"8BA is the Canadian version, and Canuck flatheads lasted into 1954 beyond the border. Any other interesting details about your project? DD
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Old 08-04-2020, 09:37 PM   #17
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

Hey V8C...

Sorry for the slow reply. As stated the engine is a C8BA but it's an interesting engine. When I bought the engine the seller was throwing in the Fenton intakewith three 97s and two sets of original Eddie Meyer heads (block previous to the 8BA and 8BA styles) along with a set of wire wheels that may go on one of my '47 Buicks. He claimed that th engine came out of a Mercury but it had C8BA cast into the block and we all know that that's no Merc block. Anyway, when I was tearing it down this spring it had frozen up a bit but everything unbolted really easily and the pistons freed themselves. When I pulled the crank there was the tell tale oval dimple and wider counter weight and the desired 4" stroke. This engine was never rebuilt and the heads indicated Merc. But heads are easy to swap of course. There was also the Merc cam. So I believe that at the particular time this engine was assembled in Oakville they did not have any Merc blocks ready so they just threw the Merc crank, pistons, cam, and heads on it to get it down the line.

Really didn't pay that much for it considering what I got in the bargain. A couple of cracks that will be pinned and a couple of tiny "Ford p/n" cracks as well. Machine shop has been in business since well before WWII so they are heavily experienced.

I had the cam reground by a local shop that began in the mid fifties so more experience there also!

Any way I think in the pics to follow you will see that the Fenton intake is indeed for the 8BA series of blocks. (I have another block but was confused do when I saw 0BA, or is that 1BA, cast but then found out that indicates 1950/51.).)

So getting back to my original question, any guidance for a PCV for this intake?

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Old 08-04-2020, 09:45 PM   #18
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Having trouble loading pics from cell phone; something about a missing security token?
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Old 08-05-2020, 12:11 AM   #19
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

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Having trouble loading pics from cell phone; something about a missing security token?

Hello Fortunate......I was wondering where you had gotten off to. We have several items to cover here. First of all, the "security token" thing many times means the picture is too 'big' for this site. SOMETIMES, e-mailing the pics to yourself mystically takes care of re-sizing them to an appropriate size. IF after trying that the pics still won't post, try e-mailing them to me and I will attempt to post them here for you. I still need to see some of the details of the intake you're wanting to use before I can come-up with any reasonable ideas. My e-mail:


roundmotor@outlook.com


Of course, you realize that the "C"8BA block is a Canadian-produced version of our Yankee 8BA block. Understand that many people are surprised to hear that at least here in the States for 1949 thru 1953 automobiles, the Ford and Mercury engines shared the same identical BLOCK with each other, although each of the two brands used their own proprietary cylinder heads, intake manifold/carburetor, crankshaft, pistons, camshaft, flywheel and pressure plate, and sometimes water pumps. I won't arbitrarily state that that's ALSO the way it was in Canada, but there's no viable reason for the Canucks to have invested the phenomenal expense of tooling-up for TWO identical blocks with different ID markings. And since Mercurys are a product of the parent FoMoCo, the 'Ford' ID-nomenclature (8BA) with the Canadian "C" in front of it wins-out, I'm sure. And you are correct in assuming that "0BA" and "1BA" represent 1950 & 1951 model years respectively. One more thing....if your cylinder heads are marked "8CM", the Mercury-ONLY oil pan should look like the one below with the three studs and "L"-bracket. It'll also have a unique oil pump/pick-up and windage tray only found on the Mercs. Try e-mailing those manifold pics to yourself. If you still aren't able to post them here, e-mail them to me and we'll see what we can do. Dick D













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Old 08-05-2020, 02:24 AM   #20
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Yep, that's the oil pan I have... a little different from my other one where the engine came out of truck. That one was rebuilt at one point but it doesn't have the 8RT casting mark so I presume they fitted a car block into the 1/2ton truck.

I'll be checking on the oil pump...
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Old 08-05-2020, 11:13 AM   #21
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Yep, that's the oil pan I have... a little different from my other one where the engine came out of truck. That one was rebuilt at one point but it doesn't have the 8RT casting mark so I presume they fitted a car block into the 1/2ton truck.

I'll be checking on the oil pump...

Remember this one rule: SAME BLOCK...Ford, Mercury, truck or automobile!


Here is that oh-so-rare (hard to replace) Mercury oil pump 'pick-up' assembly that goes with that oil pan. DD

















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Old 08-05-2020, 11:58 AM   #22
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I knew about "the same block for all!" company edict which makes sense except for the different block identification marks. Now that oil pump doesn't look familiar. If I use the Merc oil pan is it essential to use that pump or would theFord pump work OK? I do have the truck oil pan...
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Old 08-05-2020, 01:32 PM   #23
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I knew about "the same block for all!" company edict which makes sense except for the different block identification marks. Now that oil pump doesn't look familiar. If I use the Merc oil pan is it essential to use that pump or would theFord pump work OK? I do have the truck oil pan...

It's the pump 'PICK-UP' and the attached, round baffle that are the oddballs. These pics show how the round baffle fits snugly into the round hole in the MERCURY pan baffle. The pumps are essentially the same, physically. What kind of car are you putting this in? ALSO, what type of transmission are you going to bolt-up to? One more thing to remember....you can use whichever oil pan you choose, but you MUST have and utilize that pan's MATCHING 'starter plate'. DD























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Old 08-05-2020, 02:14 PM   #24
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The engine will be going into my '32 5W. Have the starter plates for both engines along with everything else. Can the Ford oil pump be used in the Merc pan?

By the way I hade the extra Ford cam reground to a Isky Max1 twin by Shadbolts cam service here in Vancouver for a very reasonable price. I thought it would be better to save the Merc cam.
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Old 08-06-2020, 04:12 PM   #25
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The engine will be going into my '32 5W. Have the starter plates for both engines along with everything else. Can the Ford oil pump be used in the Merc pan?

You MAY (or may not) have to trim that baffle in the Mercury pan to clear the Ford pick-up tube. You also should beware of the possible difference in proximity of the Ford pick-up with the bottom of the Merc pan. Do you know if that "Merc" engine does IN FACT have the Merc oil pick-up? If it does, I'd say that IS likely a REAL Merc engine.


Are you using an old Ford 3-speed trans? DD
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Old 08-13-2020, 12:24 AM   #26
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Been busy again but better late in replying than never...

I believe both engines have the same oil pickup but have to 2x check. The tranny is a post war truck which will be converted to closed drive. I need the main shaft and possibly second gear if I want to use my LZ setup. I've read pros and cons on this. Rear end is 3.78.
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Old 08-13-2020, 08:40 AM   #27
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

V8 and Heard: You guys are a great team. Thank you very much for all that hands on research and posting a truly exceptional tech article. Taking the time to take photos and then your detailed and clear explanation sure makes this an exceptional piece of info.
You hit a grand slam.
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Old 08-13-2020, 02:18 PM   #28
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V8 and Heard: You guys are a great team. Thank you very much for all that hands on research and posting a truly exceptional tech article. Taking the time to take photos and then your detailed and clear explanation sure makes this an exceptional piece of info.
You hit a grand slam.

Awe shucks, Jim! Coming from you, that is VERY much appreciated!


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Old 08-13-2020, 02:26 PM   #29
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

I agree.
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Old 08-13-2020, 02:47 PM   #30
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Been busy again but better late in replying than never...

I believe both engines have the same oil pickup but have to 2x check. The tranny is a post war truck which will be converted to closed drive. I need the main shaft and possibly second gear if I want to use my LZ setup. I've read pros and cons on this. Rear end is 3.78.

The DIFFERENT oil pick-ups are each shaped to work with the different pan configurations for different applications, like Ford cars, Ford trucks, Mercurys….all use differently-configured oil pans. In fact, this list below from Mac VanPelt's catalog shows the number of different 8BA-type oil pans.


8BA- 6675-C Oil Pan (49-50 Ford V8) - Mid sump - horizontal drain plug
1BA- 6675-A Oil Pan (51 Ford V8) - angled drain plug
1BA- 6675-C Oil Pan (52 Ford V8) - Mid sump - angled drain plug - 2 side ribs
1BA- 6675-D Oil Pan (52-53 Ford V8) - Mid sump - angled drain plug - 3 side ribs
8CM- 6675-C Oil Pan (49-51 Merc) - Rear sump - stud reinforcement at bottom)
1M- 6675 Oil Pan (51 Merc) - Rear sump - w/o stud reinforcement at bottom)
AE- 6675-A Oil Pan (52-53 Merc) - Mid sump - rear drain plug - 3 side ribs
8RT- 6675-B Oil Pan (48-53 Truck V8) - rear sump with cleanout
8RT- 6675-D Oil Pan (53 Truck V8) - long rear to mid sump without cleanout


The Lincoln-Zephyr gear sets require their own, unique 2nd gears and cluster gears. DD
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Old 08-13-2020, 03:45 PM   #31
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

That's a heck of a lot of oil pans! I have what came with each engine. I'll try to look at the Merc pan today.

I have the LZ cluster gears in great shape. Second may just need a little judicious filing but the main shaft has one tooth removed better than a dentist could do!

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Old 08-14-2020, 12:06 PM   #32
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

Excellent write up with a lot of work to solve a very simple problem; how to get good ventilation into an engine.
The one problem I see with placing the PCV adjacent to the oil fill tube is that in order for crankcase ventilation to work you have to have a fresh air source that is drawn through the engine and into the intake manifold to be burnt off in lieu of escaping into the atmosphere.
Placing the PCV so close to the fresh-air source will draw the fresh air into the PCV and not through the engine.
Placing the PCV into the manifold in front of the carb will create a better path/route for air circulation with-in the engine.
I like the PCV system that the '63-64 292 V8 truck engines used. The rear draft tube is eliminated in favor of a metal bonnet that fits into the block, a line runs from there to a location in front of the carb. The PCV screws into a hole in the manifold. Fresh air is drawn into the engine block via the oil fill pipe at the front of the engine.
I have attached a couple oCV system on my '57 T-Bird..
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File Type: jpg 57 312 PCV.jpg (41.1 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg 57 312 PCV.1.jpg (53.0 KB, 18 views)
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Old 08-14-2020, 12:22 PM   #33
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

Bill,
I think you misunderstand how this is plumbed. The air is drawn down through the filler tube vent into the crankcase, then up through the old original fill tube at the front of the block, across the valve chamber area back to the rear of the block, then up through the pcv valve, out through the spacer block and into the manifold.

The line from the fill tube at the front of the engine to the pvc valve is sealed. No way for the pcv to draw air anywhere EXCEPT from the crankcase.

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Old 08-14-2020, 03:49 PM   #34
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Bill,
I think you misunderstand how this is plumbed. The air is drawn down through the filler tube vent into the crankcase, then up through the old original fill tube at the front of the block, across the valve chamber area back to the rear of the block, then up through the pcv valve, out through the spacer block and into the manifold.

The line from the fill tube at the front of the engine to the pvc valve is sealed. No way for the pcv to draw air anywhere EXCEPT from the crankcase.

Heard

Yup, clear as mud! DD
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Old 08-14-2020, 09:03 PM   #35
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

Different oil pans. I have one truck and one regular (?) car pan. The reinforcement had me confused. Why was that required?
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File Type: jpg 63C921CB-E84F-4E28-9AA0-BE39515D8145.jpg (36.0 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg 3A63252C-829A-4F0D-BB11-E02C3657FE41.jpg (43.4 KB, 70 views)
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Old 08-15-2020, 12:53 AM   #36
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Different oil pans. I have one truck and one regular (?) car pan. The reinforcement had me confused. Why was that required?

Is this bracket with the two "U"-shaped slots the "reinforcement" that you're referring to? If so, that bracket is required as a solid and steadying attachment point for the bottom of the starter plate that goes with that pan. Starter plate versions are meant to match their respective oil pan types. DD







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Old 08-15-2020, 11:42 AM   #37
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

Reviewing the original question; Early intake manifold on a 8BA type of engine and the accompanying pix shows the PCV system plumbed into the rear oil fill/breather tube, no front fill/breather tube. If the copper tube running through the valve lifter chamber is the intended source of air flow from the lower crankcase, I doubt if that pipe would have the capacity to ventilate the engine.
Some Early Ford V8 pans have a 'draft' vent located in the front left of the pan. This vent must be closed off if a PCV system is installed on the engine.
Some people maintain that a closed crankcase system, PCV, won't work on a EFV8 engine because the rear main is not sealed, thereby the PCV will draw contaminates through the flywheel/clutch area and into the crankcase/engine.
I am getting ready to take the engine out of my '36, so that I can take it down to H & H to have the engine freshened up. It has not been touched since it's last rebuild in 1960. It is my intention to drill/thread a hole in the front portion of the Offy Super intake for a Ford 292 PCV which will plumbed into the vacuum port to the rear of the second carb.
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Old 08-15-2020, 12:35 PM   #38
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

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Reviewing the original question; Early intake manifold on a 8BA type of engine and the accompanying pix shows the PCV system plumbed into the rear oil fill/breather tube, no front fill/breather tube. If the copper tube running through the valve lifter chamber is the intended source of air flow from the lower crankcase, I doubt if that pipe would have the capacity to ventilate the engine.
Some Early Ford V8 pans have a 'draft' vent located in the front left of the pan. This vent must be closed off if a PCV system is installed on the engine.
Some people maintain that a closed crankcase system, PCV, won't work on a EFV8 engine because the rear main is not sealed, thereby the PCV will draw contaminates through the flywheel/clutch area and into the crankcase/engine.
I am getting ready to take the engine out of my '36, so that I can take it down to H & H to have the engine freshened up. It has not been touched since it's last rebuild in 1960. It is my intention to drill/thread a hole in the front portion of the Offy Super intake for a Ford 292 PCV which will plumbed into the vacuum port to the rear of the second carb.
I'm not following this at all. No PCV system is going to vent more air than the size of the PCV valve and the connected tubing. Want difference would it make if the tubing is routed on top of the manifold or under the manifold?
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Old 08-15-2020, 12:38 PM   #39
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Yep. I have all that I need but still am curious about a PCV valve system for my application.
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Old 08-15-2020, 03:03 PM   #40
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Hello Fortunate....This might be interesting, at least to YOU and me. Can you give me an exact model number for that Fenton manifold, or maybe a better description? Can we assume that it IS an intake made for the later '49-'54 engine? No mistake there, the rest of you's guys! The "C"8BA is the Canadian version, and Canuck flatheads lasted into 1954 beyond the border. Any other interesting details about your project? DD
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Yep. I have all that I need but still am curious about a PCV valve system for my application.

Fortunate......Ya know, way back there in post #16 of this thread, I asked: "Can you give me an exact model number for that Fenton manifold, or maybe a better description?" You've asked every question under the sun since then (which I've tried my best to answer), but I don't recall you helping me out (YET) with a better ID on that Fenton manifold, or at least a picture or two. I can't reasonably begin to help you with YOUR application if I don't know what we're working with. So, the ball's back in your court....again! DD
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Old 08-16-2020, 05:37 AM   #41
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Default Re: PCV VALVE SYSTEM for 8BA with Early Intake Manifold

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Reviewing the original question; Early intake manifold on a 8BA type of engine and the accompanying pix shows the PCV system plumbed into the rear oil fill/breather tube, no front fill/breather tube. If the copper tube running through the valve lifter chamber is the intended source of air flow from the lower crankcase, I doubt if that pipe would have the capacity to ventilate the engine.
Some Early Ford V8 pans have a 'draft' vent located in the front left of the pan. This vent must be closed off if a PCV system is installed on the engine.
Some people maintain that a closed crankcase system, PCV, won't work on a EFV8 engine because the rear main is not sealed, thereby the PCV will draw contaminates through the flywheel/clutch area and into the crankcase/engine.
I am getting ready to take the engine out of my '36, so that I can take it down to H & H to have the engine freshened up. It has not been touched since it's last rebuild in 1960. It is my intention to drill/thread a hole in the front portion of the Offy Super intake for a Ford 292 PCV which will plumbed into the vacuum port to the rear of the second carb.

Bill....I'm not sure that I understand the real point of your post here. Heard explained it rather clearly for you yesterday. And I'm not sure that you fully understand why the original road draft tubes were so large in diameter, vs the relatively small diameter of the tubing that PCV valves are plumbed-into. In fact, I'm beginning to wonder if you fully comprehend why pressure is created in the crankcase in the first place, and WHY there is such a necessity to relieve that pressure. I also have to wonder, since this article is so clearly labled "8BA", why you want to confuse matters referencing 'early' V8 oil pans with a 'draft' vent located at front....RIGHT? Same thing with reference to "not-sealed" rear mains on early V8s. We don't have this situation with an 8BA! And furthermore, you stated: "the accompanying pix shows the PCV system plumbed into the rear oil fill/breather tube". Well, the 'pix' DO NOT show that. The pics DO show the PCV valve & tubing ROUTED through that area, three to four inches below the breather tube itself, with the PCV valve being captured in a rubberized Dorman PCV valve holding fixture, which is part of a fully closed and sealed vacuum circuit (completely isolated from the fresh outside air supply). It's "plumbed" such that it makes way from the intake manifold vacuum source at a common plenum between the two carburetors, then entering the internals of the engine via a bulkhead fitting through the side of the 1" breather tube spacer. From that 90 degree fitting, the sealed circuit continues downward through the PCV valve (it's imperative to mount PCV valves vertically) and on to a compression fitting penetrating the now-capped-off exit tube which exits the oil pan chamber at the front of the valve chamber, and which ORIGINALLY connected to the original road draft tube. Check those pictures again! The pics below suggest ONLY the proximity of the PCV valve to the fresh air breather tube, which is now the avenue for injesting fresh air into the crankcase, and for adding lubricating oil.











First of all, crankcase pressure is created as a result of blow-by, the relatively small volume of combustion gasses that travel past the piston rings and begin to pressurize the lower crankcase, as well as any other areas of the engine which are common/open to the lower pan area. That pressure needs to be relieved because if not relieved, gaskets will begin leaking oil or even be blown outward from their sealing surfaces. In some cases, oil can even be pressurized out of dip stick tubes. Unrelieved crankcase pressure has even been known to deform oil pans. BUT....it usually takes some span of time for pressure to increase to that point if NOT relieved. This pressurization is not huge in volume like combustion exhaust is. In that regard, crankcase pressurization is not an instantaneous process.


Normally, in stock configuration, and in the vintage engines we're discussing here, fresh air is allowed to enter through a usually-capped breather (and many times oil-fill) tube. Fresh air enters only at such times that contaminated crankcase air (let's call it blow-by) leaves the engine via the open, large diameter road draft tube which has been carefully engineered and plumbed down to a point near the road. That draft tube (aptly-named) was designed to be down there for a couple of reasons. First was so that all those pesky fumes and smoke end-up as far away as possible from the sight and smell of us humans riding in the vehicle. But secondly, the end of that large diameter tube was projected into the airstream under the car such that as the vehicle moved down the road, the air rushing past the open end of the tube produces a vacuum via the Bernoulli Principle, effectively sucking the fumes out of the crankcase, at a rate that surpasses the fumes escaping via pressure build-up alone. Relative to the diameter of the draft tube, there is not a huge volume of blow-by being produced in the first place, but the larger diameter of the road draft tube is required to take best advantage of the air passing by the opening at the bottom of the tube to create enough vacuum to be effective. There is not very much purging of the crankcase fumes going-on with the vehicle stopped while idling, as that is one time the PCV valve is least-open.

So Bill, when almost all automobiles began employing PCV systems, that large-diameter road-draft tube disappeared, right? And true, regulated vacuum (via the PCV valve) positively sucked the fumes out of the crankcase as well as relieving blow-by pressure, correct? The entire volume of blow-by passes through that small diameter tubing (usually 3/8" to 1/2" dia.), which also means that ALL of it must pass through the PCV valve. I don't believe I have ever seen an automotive PCV valve with an orifice any larger than about 3/8" diameter. Go out there and just look at that hose nipple on the vacuum fitting at the rear of the valley cover on your Y-block (like the red one below). Not very large, is it?





You must remember that these engines produce a relatively small volume of blow-by (unless worn-out), that is easily evacuated when aided by the engine's manifold vacuum. You should also remember that dependent upon the level of vacuum being produced by the engine, the PCV valve is regulating it's volume of flow. Did you realize that a PCV valve is widest-open when the engine is producing the lowest level of vacuum?
Is there any other part of our dinky little PCV system here that I can attempt to further explain for you? We didn't go to the trouble of researching theory, doing some backyard-engineering, locating, procuring and documenting part numbers and supplies, nor take pictures and invest I don't know how much time laying this out and writing it up to tell everyone how it SHOULD be done. We only thought it might be kind'a cool to SHARE with others in a fairly concise manner, a plausible method which we devised to hide an ugly PCV valve, mounted in a vertical position, yet still affording the ability to service said valve without having to remove the intake for access. I don't believe I have it in me to make any of this any clearer. Promise....there was NO rocket science or gris-gris involved in this project. DD


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Old 08-22-2020, 12:38 AM   #42
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Fortunate......Ya know, way back there in post #16 of this thread, I asked: "Can you give me an exact model number for that Fenton manifold, or maybe a better description?" You've asked every question under the sun since then (which I've tried my best to answer), but I don't recall you helping me out (YET) with a better ID on that Fenton manifold, or at least a picture or two. I can't reasonably begin to help you with YOUR application if I don't know what we're working with. So, the ball's back in your court....again! DD
Well I've tried to send the pics bout three times now. Every time I get an error message! The only identification is Fenton and it is obviously for the 8BA series. I'll try again tomorrow. I guess the "ball" just keeps going out of bonds...
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Old 08-22-2020, 02:57 AM   #43
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Well I've tried to send the pics bout three times now. Every time I get an error message! The only identification is Fenton and it is obviously for the 8BA series. I'll try again tomorrow. I guess the "ball" just keeps going out of bonds...
Hey Bud.....Just e-mail a picture or two to me and I'll see if I can post 'em here for ya. Then, I'll have an idea of what to MAYBE suggest for your PCV valve. My e-mail below....please put something like "PCV Pictures" in the subject line. DD

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