Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-17-2020, 08:46 AM   #1
Bored&Stroked
Senior Member
 
Bored&Stroked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,704
Default Ardun Heads and the Chrysler Firepower - Some Perspectives

RE: The 1951 Chrysler Firepower . . . a Copy of the Ardun???

It is common to hear folks ponder that Chrysler must have copied the Ardun heads when they came out with their Hemi in 1951. The original blue-prints that George Kudasch created for the Ardun are dated 12/30/1947 - less than 2 years before Chrysler had the Firepower Hemi engine heavily into production and available for sale. Even if Chrysler actually had a copy of the blueprints available when George completed them (long before Duntov actually had patterns made, created the raw castings, machined them and showed the world), they would have only had about 1 1/2 years to design, test, rework and bring their Hemi into volume production. This is far too little time for a big company to create and deliver on a new powerplant platform. Giving the timing/dates - there is no possible way that Chrysler got "the idea" due to seeing an Ardun that Duntov produced, though the initial thought comes to mind quite easily.

What a lot of folks don't realize is that the "Hemi" cylinder head concept had been around for at least a few decades before Ardun or anybody in the Americas created a new one -- it had been used in Europe quite successfully by a variety of different manufacturers - including BMW and Peugeot (both Duntov and Kurdasch came from Europe).

Also, Chrysler had been experimenting with many different engine designs since the late 30's - and built some extremely impressive prototype Hemi engines during WWII for the P-47 test program. Chrysler had extensive Hemi knowledge and had built, extensively tested and produced working engines, long before Duntov decided to create the Ardun for our beloved Flathead Fords.

Here is a link to a good article that Ron San Giovanni was a contributor on about George Kurdasch - it is worth a read:

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/0804sr-ardun-heads/
Bored&Stroked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2020, 10:59 AM   #2
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 7,063
Default Re: Ardun Heads and the Chrysler Firepower - Some Perspectives

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked View Post
RE: The 1951 Chrysler Firepower . . . a Copy of the Ardun???

It is common to hear folks ponder that Chrysler must have copied the Ardun heads when they came out with their Hemi in 1951. The original blue-prints that George Kudasch created for the Ardun are dated 12/30/1947 - less than 2 years before Chrysler had the Firepower Hemi engine heavily into production and available for sale. Even if Chrysler actually had a copy of the blueprints available when George completed them (long before Duntov actually had patterns made, created the raw castings, machined them and showed the world), they would have only had about 1 1/2 years to design, test, rework and bring their Hemi into volume production. This is far too little time for a big company to create and deliver on a new powerplant platform. Giving the timing/dates - there is no possible way that Chrysler got "the idea" due to seeing an Ardun that Duntov produced, though the initial thought comes to mind quite easily.

What a lot of folks don't realize is that the "Hemi" cylinder head concept had been around for at least a few decades before Ardun or anybody in the Americas created a new one -- it had been used in Europe quite successfully by a variety of different manufacturers - including BMW and Peugeot (both Duntov and Kurdasch came from Europe).

Also, Chrysler had been experimenting with many different engine designs since the late 30's - and built some extremely impressive prototype Hemi engines during WWII for the P-47 test program. Chrysler had extensive Hemi knowledge and had built, extensively tested and produced working engines, long before Duntov decided to create the Ardun for our beloved Flathead Fords.

Here is a link to a good article that Ron San Giovanni was a contributor on about George Kurdasch - it is worth a read:

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/0804sr-ardun-heads/
Dale....I had seen all of this in the past, as I've had a keen interest in the Ardun heads for the last nearly sixty years, and with my Corvette involvement and shenanigans going back some fifty-five years or so, Zora is a household name around here for my wife and I. In fact, I've had the privilege of meeting Zora and Elfie on two different occasions. But thanks for putting this stuff out there in hopes of possibly clearing-up some common misconceptions, especially with regard to Chrysler's extensive background involving 'hemispherical' development in aviation powerplants, long before Zora (and George) jumped-in with the Ardun idea. DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


In that final nano-second while the metal bar speeds toward his furry little head, the oblivious mouse FINALLY realizes WHY the cheese was free!





V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 07-17-2020, 11:09 AM   #3
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 3,784
Default Re: Ardun Heads and the Chrysler Firepower - Some Perspectives

For any of you who like to geek out on this type of thing, Griffith Borrgeson's book The Golden Age of the American Racing Car is essential reading.

Last edited by Tim Ayers; 07-17-2020 at 11:18 AM.
Tim Ayers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2020, 01:56 PM   #4
Ronnieroadster
Senior Member
 
Ronnieroadster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: East Coast in CT
Posts: 822
Default Re: Ardun Heads and the Chrysler Firepower - Some Perspectives

Heres a short video taken back in the 90's of Geroge Kudasch. Sorry its not the best video but it is the only film documentation I know of with George on camera. My time spent with George learning about the development of the Ardun conversion was absolutely incredible. Getting to know George and having him ride in our Ardun powered roadster so he could feel the power this conversion produced was priceless. George never realized how important his design work was and about the history which he was a huge part of. This was Georges first design project when he arrived in the US from a refugee camp in Switzerland after World War 2. After working at the Ardun mechanical company in New York city George continued designing items. George had a number of patented designs for various helicopter systems for Sikorsky Aircraft where he worked until his retirement.

Thanks Dale for giving me the inspiration to add to your post.
Ronnieroadster


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF_J...ature=youtu.be
__________________
I use the F word a lot no not that word these words Flathead , Focus and Finish.
"Life Member of the Bonneville 200 MPH Club using a Ford Flathead block"
Owner , Builder and Driver of the First Ford Flathead bodied roadster to run 200 MPH Record run July 13, 2018 LTA timing association 200.921 from a standing start in one and a half miles burning gasoline.

Last edited by Ronnieroadster; 07-17-2020 at 02:03 PM.
Ronnieroadster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2020, 02:02 PM   #5
40 Deluxe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 3,386
Default Re: Ardun Heads and the Chrysler Firepower - Some Perspectives

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked View Post
RE: The 1951 Chrysler Firepower . . . a Copy of the Ardun???
It is common to hear folks ponder that Chrysler must have copied the Ardun heads when they came out with their Hemi in 1951. The original blue-prints that George Kudasch created for the Ardun are dated 12/30/1947 - less than 2 years before Chrysler had the Firepower Hemi engine heavily into production and available for sale. Even if Chrysler actually had a copy of the blueprints available when George completed them (long before Duntov actually had patterns made, created the raw castings, machined them and showed the world), they would have only had about 1 1/2 years to design, test, rework and bring their Hemi into volume production. This is far too little time for a big company to create and deliver on a new powerplant platform. Giving the timing/dates - there is no possible way that Chrysler got "the idea" due to seeing an Ardun that Duntov produced, though the initial thought comes to mind quite easily.

What a lot of folks don't realize is that the "Hemi" cylinder head concept had been around for at least a few decades before Ardun or anybody in the Americas created a new one -- it had been used in Europe quite successfully by a variety of different manufacturers - including BMW and Peugeot (both Duntov and Kurdasch came from Europe).

Also, Chrysler had been experimenting with many different engine designs since the late 30's - and built some extremely impressive prototype Hemi engines during WWII for the P-47 test program. Chrysler had extensive Hemi knowledge and had built, extensively tested and produced working engines, long before Duntov decided to create the Ardun for our beloved Flathead Fords.

Here is a link to a good article that Ron San Giovanni was a contributor on about George Kurdasch - it is worth a read:

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/0804sr-ardun-heads/



Thanks for repeating these facts. It's amazing how someone long ago noticed the similarity in valve covers and then concocted the story that Chrysler copied from Duntov! Even more amazing is how many people repeat such stories to each other without even thinking about the timeline!
40 Deluxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2020, 06:44 PM   #6
russcc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,384
Default Re: Ardun Heads and the Chrysler Firepower - Some Perspectives

As Tim Ayers suggested, if you want a perspective of the "hemi" engine concept, read the book he suggested, The Golden Age of the American Racing Car. Ettore Buggatti purchased 2 American race cars somewhere back in the early 20's, and copied the hemi engine head design. The shop that did my 59L had a 1923 Buggati engine in the shop with the Offy type integral block & head, which was a hemi design.
russcc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2020, 05:58 AM   #7
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 890
Default Re: Ardun Heads and the Chrysler Firepower - Some Perspectives

DD,


"In fact, I've had the privilege of meeting Zora and Elfie on two different occasions."


That must have been a treat!



Glenn
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2020, 11:02 AM   #8
Bored&Stroked
Senior Member
 
Bored&Stroked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,704
Default Re: Ardun Heads and the Chrysler Firepower - Some Perspectives

To take it even further . . . how many folks that drool over Arduns have any clue as to what Duntov did later in his career? Many of our younger folks don't know about his important contributions to the GM Corvette legacy and to the GM Performance program.

Anybody here ever run 265/283/327 Chevy SBC with a 'Duntov 30-30' solid lifter cam? I ran one in my 65 Vette - was a great cam "back in the day".

Yep . . . same guy, Zora Arkus-Duntov . . .
Bored&Stroked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2020, 11:37 AM   #9
Lanny
Senior Member
 
Lanny's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mn
Posts: 1,758
Default Re: Ardun Heads and the Chrysler Firepower - Some Perspectives

A friend of mine had a Duntov 30 30 in his '64 Chevelle, and it sounded
cool with that distinct solid lifter sound. Sounded mean back in the day.




.
__________________
I live on tuff street, the further ya go,
the tuffer they git,
I live in the last house on the block !!!
___________________________________________

You bet ya, I wear the pants in My family --------
So What, if She tells me which ones to wear ?
Lanny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2020, 11:55 AM   #10
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 890
Default Re: Ardun Heads and the Chrysler Firepower - Some Perspectives

Yes, I ran one too. It worked great with my Holley 785 double pumper, 365/375 camel hump fuely heads, Jahns pistons, etc. Great when I was always "on the gas" but on my next build I went everything the same except use the Duntov "8-18" or 097 cam and a smaller carb. Way better for the street!

From https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...lock-camshaft/

"The “Duntov Cam”, aptly named after the budding engineer that spearheaded much of Chevrolet’s performance efforts through the ’50s and for two decades afterward, was actually known within GM as part number 3736097. Many times, it would simply be referred to by Zora’s last name, or as the “097 cam” over many GM parts counters for expediency’s sake. Keeping in mind that the performance-minded, solid-lifter cam was introduced only two years after the small-block Chevrolet engine began production, it’s easy to see Zora’s influence in laying an early foundation of the small-block Chevy’s dominating force in performance.

Beyond “097”
As engine size and horsepower was steadily increasing in 1964, Chevrolet replaced the Duntov cam with a newer version, dubbed the “30-30” camshaft to achieve 365 and 375 horsepower from the 327. This was a replacement and is not an iteration of the Duntov cam, although some have joined the two monikers and refer to it as a “Duntov 30-30”"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked View Post
To take it even further . . . how many folks that drool over Arduns have any clue as to what Duntov did later in his career? Many of our younger folks don't know about his important contributions to the GM Corvette legacy and to the GM Performance program.

Anybody here ever run 265/283/327 Chevy SBC with a 'Duntov 30-30' solid lifter cam? I ran one in my 65 Vette - was a great cam "back in the day".

Yep . . . same guy, Zora Arkus-Duntov . . .
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2020, 02:29 PM   #11
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 7,063
Default Re: Ardun Heads and the Chrysler Firepower - Some Perspectives

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked View Post
To take it even further . . . how many folks that drool over Arduns have any clue as to what Duntov did later in his career? Many of our younger folks don't know about his important contributions to the GM Corvette legacy and to the GM Performance program.

Anybody here ever run 265/283/327 Chevy SBC with a 'Duntov 30-30' solid lifter cam? I ran one in my 65 Vette - was a great cam "back in the day".

Yep . . . same guy, Zora Arkus-Duntov . . .

Dale....I've got the 'REAL deal'! In fact, two of 'em. We've owned an "L76" 365 horsepower '65 Corvette coupe for almost 34 years now. Noisy ol' rattlin'-liftered, 'ja-doop ja-doop' cam and a 2818 Holley from the factory. And this one is pretty rare in that it's got factory A/C...only 227 of that combination built with 365-horse AND factory air. Imagine spinning that A/C compressor up to the 6,500 rpm redline. That's why the compressor has a ridiculously huge L76-only drive pulley, as well as an oversized pulley on the alternator, too. I also have an identical 365-horse engine that I built for our '40 coupe. That cam is the famous "30-30", part number 3849346. They pull hard once you wind 'em up past 4 grand or so. DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


In that final nano-second while the metal bar speeds toward his furry little head, the oblivious mouse FINALLY realizes WHY the cheese was free!





V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2020, 03:58 PM   #12
A bones
Senior Member
 
A bones's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: CLAYTON DE
Posts: 1,010
Default Re: Ardun Heads and the Chrysler Firepower - Some Perspectives

Thank you all, for the info you provided.
__________________
Enjoy yer day. Tom
Hate can't fix what it started.
A bones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2020, 08:12 AM   #13
Frank Miller
Senior Member
 
Frank Miller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auburn, MA
Posts: 1,797
Default Re: Ardun Heads and the Chrysler Firepower - Some Perspectives

Harley Knuckles were hemi design going back t the 30s.
__________________
“The technique of infamy is to start two lies at once and get people arguing heatedly over which is true.” ~ Ezra Pound
Frank Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:16 AM.