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Old 05-31-2020, 02:15 PM   #1
Oberfranke
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Default torque all head nuts

I have a question about torquing the cylinder head nuts after changing the head gasket. I have a copper head gasket.
My workshop says I should torquing the nuts again after about 300 miles.
The workshop has torqued with 52 ft lbs (70Nm).
Would it be better to tighten the nuts more often, so not to wait 300 miles?
Are 52 ft lbs sufficient or maybe almost too much?
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Old 05-31-2020, 02:39 PM   #2
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

It won't hurt to torque them sooner and most tighten them to 55#. Check them every now and again until you know they'll stay put.
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Old 05-31-2020, 04:46 PM   #3
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Hallo Bajuware,

the Cu-seals settle through the effects of temperature and vibrations. Therefore, they have to be tightened after about 10 hours of operation.

There are two variants: loosen every single nut to eliminate the loosening torque, then tighten it to the original value.

Or add 1/8 U. If the previous tightening was done correctly, this is the better method.
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Old 05-31-2020, 05:00 PM   #4
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Model A Ford Garage ~ Brumfield Cylinder Head Gasket Instructionss
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Old 05-31-2020, 05:01 PM   #5
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

follow the instructions in post #4 you will have no problems!! Thanks to Larry B.
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Old 05-31-2020, 05:02 PM   #6
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

New head and gasket here, have checked/re-torqued three times in two weeks.

I put a lot of miles on mine as it is a daily driver, weather permitting.
Will check the torque in two weeks to ensure I'm still at 65 lbs
(Hi comp head/gasket recommends 65 lbs)
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Old 05-31-2020, 08:58 PM   #7
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Personally I torque the head nuts very often on a new head installation until I am completely comfortable that they have settled in and are holding consistent torque.
You can not torque too many times. However you can torque too much. (too high)
No fun having a freshly installed head develop a leak and fill a cylinder after it cools down and sits overnight if a quick check with a torque wrench after driving it could have prevented it from happening.
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Old 05-31-2020, 09:27 PM   #8
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

I torque all my head bolt nuts to 55lbs except for the two holding the water neck which I do to 50lbs. I have noticed that one of the head bolts is showing more thread then the rest as I had them all to one thread showing above nut.

Is this bolt creeping out on me and why? Is the only remedy to remove the head AGAIN and run this bolt down and the start the retorquing process?

After reading post #4 I have to wonder how many here use this method of torqueing / retorqueing? I understand Mr. Brumfield knows much more then I about the Model A heads but I cannot understand why backing off each nut 1/8 turn helps this process. I always thought the ultimate goal here was to get each nut torqued to 55lbs. and for them to STAY at 55lbs. With this method you would never know if any nuts have come loose. Can someone explain this?
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Old 06-01-2020, 01:15 PM   #9
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

This should answer your questions: And Thanks To Larry Brumfield for info!!
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Old 06-01-2020, 02:47 PM   #10
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cape Codder View Post
After reading post #4 I have to wonder how many here use this method of torqueing / retorqueing? I understand Mr. Brumfield knows much more then I about the Model A heads but I cannot understand why backing off each nut 1/8 turn helps this process. I always thought the ultimate goal here was to get each nut torqued to 55lbs. and for them to STAY at 55lbs. With this method you would never know if any nuts have come loose. Can someone explain this?
In Larry Brumfield's info on 'Ford Garage' it states "You’ll know when you are done because the nuts will re-torque to the same position at full torque that they were when torqued on the previous re-torque."

The article also explains 'why' he recommends you should back off ⅛ turn.
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Old 06-01-2020, 02:48 PM   #11
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

I did it different last time--- used head gasket, tightened with original tool kit wrench, about as tight as I could get it with one hand, backed off slightly, re tightened twice over 3 days, haven't touched them since, been over 30 years, no seeping,leaks, always antifreeze
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Old 06-01-2020, 03:21 PM   #12
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

You're awesome Kurt...
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Old 06-02-2020, 05:20 AM   #13
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Guten Morgen!
Why do you tighten the head screws so often? So far I was of the opinion that once after 500 mls is enough.
I use the modern silicone head gasket.
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Old 06-02-2020, 11:13 AM   #14
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

I recommend torquing after about 5 minutes of running, before driving. Again after the first, short, outing and again after a few hundred miles. All gaskets are not the same, some are seated after the first re-torquing, many are not. You can't do it too often.
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Old 06-02-2020, 11:47 AM   #15
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Guten Morgen!
Why do you tighten the head screws so often? So far I was of the opinion that once after 500 mls is enough.
I use the modern silicone head gasket.

As an FYI, many have had problems with the modern silicone head gasket. Here is one of many strings on this subject.


https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...ne+head+gasket
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Old 06-02-2020, 12:51 PM   #16
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU View Post
As an FYI, many have had problems with the modern silicone head gasket. Here is one of many strings on this subject.


https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...ne+head+gasket
Werner, Why re-tighten: The "Modern Silicone" head gasket requires the most cycles of re-tightening of any gasket I have used. Once seated after multiple tightening sessions, the gasket holds up quite well.
Good Day!
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Old 06-02-2020, 12:55 PM   #17
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by burner31 View Post
New head and gasket here, have checked/re-torqued three times in two weeks.

I put a lot of miles on mine as it is a daily driver, weather permitting.
Will check the torque in two weeks to ensure I'm still at 65 lbs
(Hi comp head/gasket recommends 65 lbs)

Keith,
Which head and manufacturer is suggesting 65# torque?
From my checking Snyder's website: Their Thomas, 6:1 and 5.5:1 heads all state 55#.
All their gaskets for high compression heads state 55#.
Most of the reading I do of spec's from the manufacturers of both heads and gaskets suggest a torque of 55#. If the head and block are "flat", 55# should do the job.

When I hear/read of 65# being recommended, it is from car owners.
My concern with 65# of torque is that it could pull a stud out of the block if the threads are compromised in the block. There is not much more of a sinking feeling than when the torque wrench keeps moving and the torque reading stays the same or decreases.
Thanks!

Last edited by Dave in MN; 06-02-2020 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 06-02-2020, 01:16 PM   #18
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

1. Many years ago I had an original 8.25 to 1 Thomas Aluminum head always used 55 ft lbs.

2. LionHead III 6.5 to one same torque (55) on this one also, no leaks.

3. Police head 5.2 "The head with the Large B" used 55 foot pounds since 1963 here also (more than 50,000 miles).

Both engines had old original studs.

Last edited by Benson; 07-15-2020 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 06-03-2020, 11:14 AM   #19
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in MN View Post
Keith,
Which head and manufacturer is suggesting 65# torque?
From my checking Snyder's website: Their Thomas, 6:1 and 5.5:1 heads all state 55#.
All their gaskets for high compression heads state 55#.
Most of the reading I do of spec's from the manufacturers of both heads and gaskets suggest a torque of 55#. If the head and block are "flat", 55# should do the job.

When I hear/read of 65# being recommended, it is from car owners.
My concern with 65# of torque is that it could pull a stud out of the block if the threads are compromised in the block. There is not much more of a sinking feeling than when the torque wrench keeps moving and the torque reading stays the same or decreases.
Thanks!

Bratton's, head gasket #8090, instructions in the package states 65 lbs.
Also installed new head studs and the 6 to 1 hi comp head #8010
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Old 06-04-2020, 05:17 PM   #20
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Has anyone have any thoughts about my post #8 especially my question of the apparent bolt coming up above the head and WHY?
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Old 06-04-2020, 05:32 PM   #21
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

One of the head bolts is slightly longer than than the others. It is used where the ignition cable clamp is used. Is it possible you are not using the clamp, or perhaps this bolt is not in the correct place in tthe block?
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Old 06-04-2020, 05:37 PM   #22
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

As far as the one bolt showing more threads then the others I would assume the bolt was not fully seated in the block, as for the torque method used by others, all I can say is as long as you follow the torque sequence then "to each their own". I'm with you and the water neck.

You can have three people torque the same head and they will do it five different way.
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Old 06-04-2020, 05:40 PM   #23
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Guten Morgen!
Why do you tighten the head screws so often? So far I was of the opinion that once after 500 mls is enough.
I use the modern silicone head gasket.
I'll NEVER use one of those gaskets again! In the time I been driving Model As, I have blown 2 head gaskets. they were both those bloody things fitted in accordance with the enclosed directions.
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Old 06-05-2020, 04:27 AM   #24
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Guten Tag miteinander.


I asked a modern engine developer. This modern silicone layer composite head gaskets have melting components. These adhere to the surface.

Therefore, these seals may only be tightened ice cold.

All surfaces must be free of grease.

Before tightening the torque at the 2nd, ..., the nuts must never be loosened.
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Old 07-15-2020, 02:21 PM   #25
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Guten Abend!

Now my additional note on the "modern" head gasket type:

Unfortunately I can confirm the note from Wade in # 15. After about 550 miles I see that the head gasket is sweating some water outside. This is althoug the fact that the cylinder head was flated and I retightened it at four times.

Today I turned the original head screwes up to >65 foot/lbs; I don't trust the screws any more. It has gotten a little bit better, but it's not good.

This modern seal is not good for me and I will choose the well-known copper seal again in the future.
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Old 07-19-2020, 02:35 PM   #26
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Hi,



as previously written, I had drawn the dry (no oil) C-head scews with 65 foot/lbs. It has gotten better, but not yet well-sealed everywhere. A few traces of water are still sweating out.

Does anyone have any experience how much the normal stud bolts / nuts can be tightened?
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Old 07-19-2020, 04:33 PM   #27
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

I wouldn't feel comfortable going over the 65 lbs you have it at now. Going much over 55 really should not be necessary.
I would rather pull the head and switch over to the copper clad gasket than risk breaking a head stud and having to deal with removing it.
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Old 07-19-2020, 06:40 PM   #28
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

On my most used car, the cold cranking compression is 110 psi + or - 2 psi on all cylinders. I use a copper high temp gasket sealer and a BEST graphite gasket. I go through a heating and retorquing process like that described in the Brumfield article above. I torque to 55 ftlb and have no trouble.
I always use an antiseize lubricant on the threads. What I do has worked for me so I will stick with it till it doesn't and why would it suddenly stop working?
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Old 07-20-2020, 09:37 AM   #29
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Guten Abend!

Now my additional note on the "modern" head gasket type:

Unfortunately I can confirm the note from Wade in # 15. After about 550 miles I see that the head gasket is sweating some water outside. This is althoug the fact that the cylinder head was flated and I retightened it at four times.

Today I turned the original head screwes up to >65 foot/lbs; I don't trust the screws any more. It has gotten a little bit better, but it's not good.

This modern seal is not good for me and I will choose the well-known copper seal again in the future.

Hi Werner, there is another string going about the modern gasket, in case you have not seen it here it is. Talks about using water/no antifreeze for the 1st thousand miles , or perhaps till the head gasket stops seeping. Maybe worth a try?


Post 10 paragraph 2
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=282825
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Old 07-21-2020, 02:57 PM   #30
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Thanks to Dave, Synchro, Wade, etc.!

Right, the risk is too great now to damage the cap screws.

I can hardly read all the posts, because of course this is very tough and cumbersome for me. But the advice to use clear cooler water without additives cannot be dismissed out of hand. This is because radiator antifreeze is a polyethylene glycol, and this PEG sweats easily through the narrowest gaps.

Bottom line: I'll wait and see ...
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Old 07-21-2020, 06:28 PM   #31
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

My opinion- There has been lots of negative feedback on the modern silicone gasket. Some have had success with it, but reasons for the successes are not definitively known and verified. The copper and Best composite have few if any failures. Personally I would not want to risk using the modern gasket.


Please note Dave's experience in the above string referenced in post 29 - "If antifreeze is used during the setting of the gasket, and it seeps, it will never seal and may weep when put under heavy load. Just my experience."
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Old 07-22-2020, 10:06 AM   #32
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Quote:
radiator antifreeze is a polyethylene glycol
I always understood it to be ethylene glycol?
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Old 07-22-2020, 02:50 PM   #33
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Thanks for your hint, Katy! I had mistaken water-soluble polyethylene glycol for ethylene glycol. In this case, the correct name for radiator antifreeze is ethylene glycol.
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Old 07-22-2020, 09:01 PM   #34
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Hi,



as previously written, I had drawn the dry (no oil) C-head scews with 65 foot/lbs. It has gotten better, but not yet well-sealed everywhere. A few traces of water are still sweating out.

Does anyone have any experience how much the normal stud bolts / nuts can be tightened?
You should NEVER torque any head stud/bolt dry. Use an approved thread lube.
You should use HARD washers under the bolt or nut head and lube them also.

I test all head stud threads in the block at 100 ft. lb. before any other machine work is done.
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Old 07-23-2020, 08:36 AM   #35
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

I would look into the above closer, though Pete has tons of experience, most of what I have read/seen indicates that most published documentation is for torquing with dry clean threads on the bolt/nut. Washer is OK, but that a drop of lube between the nut and the surface being torqued down on is OK. Literature I've seen indicates that Dry and lubed torque are different.


Am interested in what others have to say. If I am not correct, always open to learning something new.
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Old 07-23-2020, 09:03 AM   #36
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Guten Tag!

I know from previous literature that torque specifications apply to unlubricated threads.

L. Andrews writes e.g. b.: dry 55 ft / lbs = lubricated 40 ft / lbs.
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Old 07-23-2020, 09:40 AM   #37
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

In my opinion the modern style silicone gasket has a design problem, the fire ring doesn't compress enough to seal the composite material.It seems too wick coolant,turning it into goo.

Torque uses stud stretch to put the assembly in
tension.Overtorquing puts stress on the deck.Wet / dry torque values favor the ability of lubricants to reduce friction..I'm not sold on the lubricants ability to reduce torque values as much as stated
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Old 08-04-2020, 04:36 PM   #38
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

An additional feedback to #26:

The "modern" cylinder head gasket does now no longer sweats. From trip to trip it became less and less. Now everything is fine without any need for correction.
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Old 08-05-2020, 10:29 AM   #39
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Default Re: torque all head nuts

Good to hear that it worked out for you, thanks for posting the update.
Happy motoring Werner.
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