Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-04-2020, 05:32 PM   #21
30 Closed Cab PU
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,242
Default Re: torque all head nuts

One of the head bolts is slightly longer than than the others. It is used where the ignition cable clamp is used. Is it possible you are not using the clamp, or perhaps this bolt is not in the correct place in tthe block?
30 Closed Cab PU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 05:37 PM   #22
burner31
Senior Member
 
burner31's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Shawnee, Ok
Posts: 2,879
Default Re: torque all head nuts

As far as the one bolt showing more threads then the others I would assume the bolt was not fully seated in the block, as for the torque method used by others, all I can say is as long as you follow the torque sequence then "to each their own". I'm with you and the water neck.

You can have three people torque the same head and they will do it five different way.
__________________
Keith
Shawnee OK
'31 SW 160-B
burner31 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 06-04-2020, 05:40 PM   #23
Synchro909
Senior Member
 
Synchro909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 5,157
Default Re: torque all head nuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Guten Morgen!
Why do you tighten the head screws so often? So far I was of the opinion that once after 500 mls is enough.
I use the modern silicone head gasket.
I'll NEVER use one of those gaskets again! In the time I been driving Model As, I have blown 2 head gaskets. they were both those bloody things fitted in accordance with the enclosed directions.
__________________
It is no burden to carry a little extra knowledge.
Synchro909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2020, 04:27 AM   #24
Werner
Senior Member
 
Werner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany, near Aachen
Posts: 863
Default Re: torque all head nuts

Guten Tag miteinander.


I asked a modern engine developer. This modern silicone layer composite head gaskets have melting components. These adhere to the surface.

Therefore, these seals may only be tightened ice cold.

All surfaces must be free of grease.

Before tightening the torque at the 2nd, ..., the nuts must never be loosened.
__________________
Beste Gruesse aus Deutschland,
Werner


Ford Model A Roadster, 1928
Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Hercules NSU-Wankel Rotary Engine, 1976 (Canadian version)
Werner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2020, 02:21 PM   #25
Werner
Senior Member
 
Werner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany, near Aachen
Posts: 863
Default Re: torque all head nuts

Guten Abend!

Now my additional note on the "modern" head gasket type:

Unfortunately I can confirm the note from Wade in # 15. After about 550 miles I see that the head gasket is sweating some water outside. This is althoug the fact that the cylinder head was flated and I retightened it at four times.

Today I turned the original head screwes up to >65 foot/lbs; I don't trust the screws any more. It has gotten a little bit better, but it's not good.

This modern seal is not good for me and I will choose the well-known copper seal again in the future.
__________________
Beste Gruesse aus Deutschland,
Werner


Ford Model A Roadster, 1928
Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Hercules NSU-Wankel Rotary Engine, 1976 (Canadian version)
Werner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2020, 02:35 PM   #26
Werner
Senior Member
 
Werner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany, near Aachen
Posts: 863
Default Re: torque all head nuts

Hi,



as previously written, I had drawn the dry (no oil) C-head scews with 65 foot/lbs. It has gotten better, but not yet well-sealed everywhere. A few traces of water are still sweating out.

Does anyone have any experience how much the normal stud bolts / nuts can be tightened?
__________________
Beste Gruesse aus Deutschland,
Werner


Ford Model A Roadster, 1928
Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Hercules NSU-Wankel Rotary Engine, 1976 (Canadian version)
Werner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2020, 04:33 PM   #27
1crosscut
Senior Member
 
1crosscut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 1,423
Default Re: torque all head nuts

I wouldn't feel comfortable going over the 65 lbs you have it at now. Going much over 55 really should not be necessary.
I would rather pull the head and switch over to the copper clad gasket than risk breaking a head stud and having to deal with removing it.
__________________
Dave

It'll feel better when it quits hurting.
1crosscut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2020, 06:40 PM   #28
Synchro909
Senior Member
 
Synchro909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 5,157
Default Re: torque all head nuts

On my most used car, the cold cranking compression is 110 psi + or - 2 psi on all cylinders. I use a copper high temp gasket sealer and a BEST graphite gasket. I go through a heating and retorquing process like that described in the Brumfield article above. I torque to 55 ftlb and have no trouble.
I always use an antiseize lubricant on the threads. What I do has worked for me so I will stick with it till it doesn't and why would it suddenly stop working?
__________________
It is no burden to carry a little extra knowledge.
Synchro909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2020, 09:37 AM   #29
30 Closed Cab PU
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,242
Default Re: torque all head nuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Guten Abend!

Now my additional note on the "modern" head gasket type:

Unfortunately I can confirm the note from Wade in # 15. After about 550 miles I see that the head gasket is sweating some water outside. This is althoug the fact that the cylinder head was flated and I retightened it at four times.

Today I turned the original head screwes up to >65 foot/lbs; I don't trust the screws any more. It has gotten a little bit better, but it's not good.

This modern seal is not good for me and I will choose the well-known copper seal again in the future.

Hi Werner, there is another string going about the modern gasket, in case you have not seen it here it is. Talks about using water/no antifreeze for the 1st thousand miles , or perhaps till the head gasket stops seeping. Maybe worth a try?


Post 10 paragraph 2
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=282825
30 Closed Cab PU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2020, 02:57 PM   #30
Werner
Senior Member
 
Werner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany, near Aachen
Posts: 863
Default Re: torque all head nuts

Thanks to Dave, Synchro, Wade, etc.!

Right, the risk is too great now to damage the cap screws.

I can hardly read all the posts, because of course this is very tough and cumbersome for me. But the advice to use clear cooler water without additives cannot be dismissed out of hand. This is because radiator antifreeze is a polyethylene glycol, and this PEG sweats easily through the narrowest gaps.

Bottom line: I'll wait and see ...
__________________
Beste Gruesse aus Deutschland,
Werner


Ford Model A Roadster, 1928
Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Hercules NSU-Wankel Rotary Engine, 1976 (Canadian version)
Werner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2020, 06:28 PM   #31
30 Closed Cab PU
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,242
Default Re: torque all head nuts

My opinion- There has been lots of negative feedback on the modern silicone gasket. Some have had success with it, but reasons for the successes are not definitively known and verified. The copper and Best composite have few if any failures. Personally I would not want to risk using the modern gasket.


Please note Dave's experience in the above string referenced in post 29 - "If antifreeze is used during the setting of the gasket, and it seeps, it will never seal and may weep when put under heavy load. Just my experience."
30 Closed Cab PU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2020, 10:06 AM   #32
katy
Senior Member
 
katy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,682
Default Re: torque all head nuts

Quote:
radiator antifreeze is a polyethylene glycol
I always understood it to be ethylene glycol?
__________________
Play it again Sam.
katy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2020, 02:50 PM   #33
Werner
Senior Member
 
Werner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany, near Aachen
Posts: 863
Default Re: torque all head nuts

Thanks for your hint, Katy! I had mistaken water-soluble polyethylene glycol for ethylene glycol. In this case, the correct name for radiator antifreeze is ethylene glycol.
__________________
Beste Gruesse aus Deutschland,
Werner


Ford Model A Roadster, 1928
Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Hercules NSU-Wankel Rotary Engine, 1976 (Canadian version)
Werner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2020, 09:01 PM   #34
Pete
Senior Member
 
Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wa.
Posts: 3,836
Default Re: torque all head nuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Hi,



as previously written, I had drawn the dry (no oil) C-head scews with 65 foot/lbs. It has gotten better, but not yet well-sealed everywhere. A few traces of water are still sweating out.

Does anyone have any experience how much the normal stud bolts / nuts can be tightened?
You should NEVER torque any head stud/bolt dry. Use an approved thread lube.
You should use HARD washers under the bolt or nut head and lube them also.

I test all head stud threads in the block at 100 ft. lb. before any other machine work is done.
Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2020, 08:36 AM   #35
30 Closed Cab PU
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,242
Default Re: torque all head nuts

I would look into the above closer, though Pete has tons of experience, most of what I have read/seen indicates that most published documentation is for torquing with dry clean threads on the bolt/nut. Washer is OK, but that a drop of lube between the nut and the surface being torqued down on is OK. Literature I've seen indicates that Dry and lubed torque are different.


Am interested in what others have to say. If I am not correct, always open to learning something new.
30 Closed Cab PU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2020, 09:03 AM   #36
Werner
Senior Member
 
Werner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany, near Aachen
Posts: 863
Default Re: torque all head nuts

Guten Tag!

I know from previous literature that torque specifications apply to unlubricated threads.

L. Andrews writes e.g. b.: dry 55 ft / lbs = lubricated 40 ft / lbs.
__________________
Beste Gruesse aus Deutschland,
Werner


Ford Model A Roadster, 1928
Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Hercules NSU-Wankel Rotary Engine, 1976 (Canadian version)
Werner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2020, 09:40 AM   #37
Jack Shaft
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 684
Default Re: torque all head nuts

In my opinion the modern style silicone gasket has a design problem, the fire ring doesn't compress enough to seal the composite material.It seems too wick coolant,turning it into goo.

Torque uses stud stretch to put the assembly in
tension.Overtorquing puts stress on the deck.Wet / dry torque values favor the ability of lubricants to reduce friction..I'm not sold on the lubricants ability to reduce torque values as much as stated
Jack Shaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2020, 04:36 PM   #38
Werner
Senior Member
 
Werner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany, near Aachen
Posts: 863
Default Re: torque all head nuts

An additional feedback to #26:

The "modern" cylinder head gasket does now no longer sweats. From trip to trip it became less and less. Now everything is fine without any need for correction.
__________________
Beste Gruesse aus Deutschland,
Werner


Ford Model A Roadster, 1928
Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Hercules NSU-Wankel Rotary Engine, 1976 (Canadian version)
Werner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2020, 10:29 AM   #39
katy
Senior Member
 
katy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,682
Default Re: torque all head nuts

Good to hear that it worked out for you, thanks for posting the update.
Happy motoring Werner.
__________________
Play it again Sam.
katy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:01 AM.