Can't separate axle shaft from carrier

[bavArian]

Hello guys,


I'm starting to go insane over here. I've removed the rear end, disassembled the diff but I can't get the da**ed axle shaft off the carrier! The side without the pinion ring simply slid off, but the drivers side axle shaft can't be removed. I can push it maybe 1/10th of an inch until it tilts and seizes up and can't be turned anymore. Has someone experienced that problem before and knows a way to get the 2 parts apart? Unfortunately, I don't have access to a hydraulic press, so I can't press them out.
Any thoughts on what I can try? Hammering and shouting isn' working.
Thanks and have a nice day,


Daniel

[Jim Brierley]

Never heard of that problem! Is it possible the axle has worn a deep groove into itself, and just needs to be centered in order for it to slip out??? Good luck!

[bavArian]

That was my first thought too, but even when my helper centered it and I pushed it or hit the threaded end of the axle with a hammer, it immediately tilted to one side and seized up upon traveling a certain (very small) way. (the axle shaft is basically scrap anyway)
It feels like a part of the surface of axle or carrier has broken out and blocks the shaft as soon as you try to pull it out. I can't see any damages though and when pushing with a small wire down between shaft and carrier, I can push evenly deep at all points. So I guess it's a part of the bearing surface that's damaged OR there's some dirt or a metal flake right before the bearing surface keeping the axle in place.



Weirdly, if the shaft is completely pushed INTO the carrier (normal driving situation) it rotates freely without any problems.


I'm thinking about forcing the axle shaft out with a hydraulic press but I fear that I end up damaging the carrier when doing that.

I don't know if spare carriers are available in the US, but in Germany they certainly aren't.


Anyone else have any thoughts on how to tackle that problem?

[jw hash]

I trying to fallow you on what you are doing. if you remove the left axle housing and the right hand hub. both axles and the carrier will come right out on the left side. then you take the carrier apart to free the axles.

[Will N]

My guess is that the bearing inner race maybe spun and "welded" itself to the axle shaft. You're not going to reuse the bearing I hope, so try removing the bearing with a cut-off wheel.

[redmodelt]

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"disassembled the diff" The axle is not coming out of the one side of the carrier.

[bavArian]

Originally Posted by redmodelt

"disassembled the diff" The axle is not coming out of the one side of the carrier.

Exactly!


I already feared that it was hard to explain.


So step by step:

- removed rear end from car *check*
- removed drivers side axle housing from rear end *check*
- marked and disassembled differential *check*
- removed passenger side axle shaft from carrier half *check*


I'm now stuck at the drivers side axle shaft that's still in the carrier half. The ring gear is removed, as is the bearing on the carrier. I can turn the axle shaft as long as it is completely inserted in the carrier, but as soon as I try to push out the axle it tilts to one side (well, as far as it goes with the little play it has in the carrier) and can't be turned any more. I then have to give the carrier a light hit with the hammer to unseize it, making it impossible to remove the axle shaft because the shaft slides back in place in the carrier. Bear in mind that I can only push the axle shaft 1 or 2 mm in and out before it becomes stuck.

[1930 coupe]

Place the nut back on the axle to protect the threads, hold the carrier with some heavy work gloves with the axle pointing down. Slam the end of the axle down hard against a hard surface, the carrier should come off. It may or may not damage something, but it should come off with a couple of hard slams,

[bavArian]

Tried that too, didn't work. But I'll try it again tomorrow, maybe I was too much of a sissy. I'm starting to think that there's no other way to separate them, either that way or with a big press...

[Roger V]

I believe I have followed this situation. Though you didn't mention it, I assume you have removed the spider gears and the yoke they are mounted on? Usually, it will nearly fall out of the carrier when split (unbolted). At any rate, that is the only normal part(s) that contact that end of the axle shaft so if stuck would prevent removal. Post a picture as the old adage is "a picture is worth a thousand words". It's probably close to 4 AM so we'll have to wait a few hours!

[bavArian]

Of course the spider gears and the yoke are removed. I've attached a picture of the carrier with the axle and one of the threaded end, which is the reason I want to change it out. It looks a bit too beat up for my taste and I'd rather change it now than end up with problems later on the road.

[jetmek]

The only reason I can come up with for problem you have is it seized up from someone doing the ol 1 wheel peel and Now has A burr and groove. Id start looking for a center section as well as axle shaft

[bavArian]

The new axle shaft is already here, bought a pair as the other was even worse. Weirdly, the passenger side carrier looks absolutely fine and went apart without any problems.
I guess I'll try to get access to a press? Because I don't think it'll come apart with only a hammer.

[rich b]

Maybe saw most of the axle off and try the hammer again; maybe losing some force in the "spring" of the full axle length. If no help, it will at least be easier to fit in a press.

[Kurt in NJ]

Hold by taper, slam down on block of wood
Or just leave together, replace both parts, most likely ther is excessive damage that will prevent reuse

[Roger V]

Of course, but you didn't state the spiders, etc. were removed. I agree with Kurt. If you can't get the axle out it's unlikely the carrier is ok so would not want to reuse it anyway. Maybe John in England has or knows of a carrier that's available.

[Jim Brierley]

Someone on this site should have a good carrier that they would part with??? They are pretty common over here, I'll look to see if I have a good one. The axles normally slip out easily, let us know when you find the problem.

[Tom Endy]

The photo shows a two stage failure of a differential I encountered a couple years ago. The first stage occurred when someone put a differential together without regard to carrier bearing pre-load. The bearings were so tight that instead of spinning the bearing on the hub, it sheared to the hub off the carrier on the ring gear side. The differential continued to operate in this manner for a number of years, and with many tour miles; however, it must have generated a lot of heat in the area where the gear end of the axle is located. Eventually it caused the gear to separate from the axle shaft. This was a show stopper and the car could no longer operate.

When I took it apart it all came apart easy. However, prior to the gear separating from the axle shaft it could easily have become distorted enough that it would not have allowed the axle to be removed from the carrier.

Reproduction axle shafts have been known to fail with the gear separating from the shaft as they are welded onto the shaft. The failure I encountered was with an original axle that are not prone to this type of failure, however, the circumstances were unique.

Tom Endy

[bavArian]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

Someone on this site should have a good carrier that they would part with??? They are pretty common over here, I'll look to see if I have a good one. The axles normally slip out easily, let us know when you find the problem.

I'll post the reason for the problem as soon as I can get the shaft out.

I also wrote an email to Bert's this afternoon asking if they have a carrier (half or complete) in stock. If someone on here has one that he could ship over that'd be nice too! Prefereably the complete carrier, as my luck with that car seems so bad that I'll surely have problems mating the old and new carrier halfs up if I only take the drivers side one.



At the moment, my guess is that the little relief groove that's visible on Tom Endy's picture of the axle shaft (between polished surface and rest of gear) has somehow worn itself so deep into the carrier that the axle can't be removed.
We'll see as soon as I get it apart...

[Ak Sourdough]

If it were mine, I'd put it in a lathe and drill the center of the axle until the gear section comes off. If the axle still won't come out, I'd keep drilling inside the carrier until the axle was just paper thin and it should come off.

[Kurt in NJ]

You would need a real good drill , it's pretty hard,and it's real tough steel

[john charlton]

Hi Bay Arian I will check to see what I have here in England as I am closer than USA so postage should be cheaper . Can you get a good used axle in Germany or are you going to buy a new one from a German supplier ?

John in Suffolk County England .

[bavArian]

Good morning John,


I've bought new axles for 500 bucks each here in Germany. I could still return them if you had a cheaper alternative, but I guess that usable axles are at leat 300 bucks in England, so it wouldn't make much of a difference, right?
Have a nice day,


Daniel

[bavArian]

Hello guys,

using a spindle press at work I was able to get the diff carrier off the axle shaft. I've attached pictures of the diff carrier.

There is excessive wear at the bearing surface of axle and carrier, it seems like some metal from the carrier has welded itself onto the outer part of the axle's bearing surface which caused the axle to tilt when it reached the area of the bearing that still has roughly original diameter.

No wonder it refused to come out!



If I had to guess, I'd say that someon in the past used that car as a stationary engine with one wheel up and that caused the problem, just like it was posted before. The right axle probably got replaced in the past, because it's in MUCH better shape.




The question is what to do now, as far as I see it there are basically 2 options:

1) Get a new diff carrier and just replace it, including a new setup of the entire rear end.

2) Machine the bearing surface of the diff so that it's smooth and use the same carrier again.


If I machine the carrier, I won't have a nice fit of carrier and axle anymore. The question is if it's even needed under normal driving conditions because the force as well as the rotational speed of the axle inside the diff carrier should be quite low as the axle only rotates in the carrier if the car is going through a corner.

So it either rotates very slow with medium load (driving through a corner at higher speed) or it rotates a bit faster with low load (when turning). Correct?


In case that this is not an option and the carrier is not usable anymore, I will have to get an entire new carrier and set up the diff again. I'd like to avoid that if possible, but if I ruin the new axle when doing that I'll have to swallow it and go that route.
So, what would you do?

[john charlton]

Hi Daniel .You cannot repair the carrier you have it would cause the spider gears to be misaligned to the axle gear which will damage the axle . The carrier halves are not "matched" like the ring and pinion gear and are listed separately in the English Ford Parts list (July 1st 1931) so you just need A-4205-B which is the left gear case . Luckily I do have one here in good condition it came out of an axle where the other side the roller bearing area was damaged and not worth fixing . The area where the spider gear run are slightly worn so when matched with your right side there could be a slight "step" where the outside of the spider gear rubs but they will soon lap in so I dont think this would be a problem . My son will post a pic of what I have .I do not have a spare complete carrier as I still have 4 more axles to build for future projects if I live long enough !!! 81 years old on Saturday . Use your new axles I do have good used but no guarantee of course and I would have to ship mine to you anyway . Let me know if you want this left carrier .

John in sunny Suffolk County England .

[Juggler]

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[john charlton]

This is the carrier I have if you pay the postage it is yours for free PM me your address if you are interested .Do you do Pay Pal ?

John

[bavArian]

Hello John,

yes, that's exactly the one I need, A-4205-B. Seems like yours is a later revision? It has 2 additional holes from the inside to the outside, probably for improved lubrication.
I've sent you a PM.
Thanks,

Daniel

[john charlton]

Yes better lubrication I have your PM .

John

[bavArian]

Another question:

Les' book says to disassemble the diff and check bearing clearance without the axles and spider. Is there any specific reason for that?
I think that it wouldn't really matter and he just did it that way because the diff is easier to handle without the axles?

[john charlton]

The Les book is correct . This is the way I do it . I put the diff carrier in the complete axle setup with no axles or spider fitted the ring gear is fitted tightly to the carrier . The torque tube is not fitted You assemble the axle housings to the centre member using all the bolts . As you tighten the bolts reach through the torque tube hole and keep a check on how easy it is to rotate the ring gear . If it gets tight before all bolts are tightened then take it apart and put a paper shim each side and do it again . When all centre member bolts are tight see how easy it is to rotate the ring gear with you fingers . If it spins easily and maybe you can move it slightly latterally then take a shim out each side .This is a time consuming process . If it is set correctly when you rotate the ring gear there should be a slight drag should be 16" pounds on the ring gear but it is abit of a fiddle to set this up I just do it by feel .If they are new bearings I set a bit more drag than used bearings . The banjo bolts MUST be tight when you do this . Now the carrier preload is set do not remove or fit more shims or you will upset the preload . Next comes the fun bit you have to set the pinion backlash . Take everything apart and fit the axles and spider gears and fit the torque tube with the drive shaft and pinion . Do not get the shims muddled up remember no addtions or subtractions . Les will tell you what to do next it is a procedure of moving shims from side to side which effectively increases lash or reduces it . The total count of shims MUST remain the same . Why the axles are removed on the first step is that you cannot judge the preload with the drag from the axle seals .I most likely have left something out but I am sure someone will point this out as there are many out there who have built many more axles than I have !!!

John in same place same weather Suffolk County England .

[john charlton]

The above assumes the pinion bearing has correct preload .Knew I would forget something !!!

John

[bavArian]

Update:

My bad luck seems to continue. The diff-carrier John sent me has 2 differences to the old one:


A) The raised parts on the flange that center the two halves are missing.

B) The outer diameter of the carrier where the ring gear slides on is significantly smaller than that of the old part. On the old carrier, measurement (a) is roughly 104.9 mm / 4.125", the new carrier only has 98.3 mm / 3-7/8". So there's a big gap between ring gear and diff carrier.


Difference A shouldn't be a big problem because centering the two halves with the spider should work.Difference B on the other hand IS a problem. The ring gear can't be centered, which I assume is necessary for it to work for more than 50 miles. Were there two different ring-gear IDs? The parts are both marked as A-4205-B.


I've turned down the bearing surface of the old carrier half to be able to insert the new axle. (pic attached)
There is some play between axle and carrier, I'd say around twice as much as with the other, not worn carrier half and that same new axle.

I'm hesitating to use the old carrier with the new axle though because I fear that the old carrier will damage the axle surface.


So my only real option is to get a matching diff carrier with the proper outer diameter for the ring gear, correct?

[Jim Brierley]

Les's book is great, one thing I would change is when checking the brg pre-load, Les says to tighten all side bolts without gaskets. DO NOT DO THIS! I do everything with the axles in a vertical position. 1) Bolt the right side housing to the center section, with no gaskets, I just use 4 bolts. 2) Gently set the left side on. 3) Using 3 or 4 feeler gauges arranged around the housings, to hold the L. housing up off the brg., then slowly lower the housing by selecting smaller feeler's until drag is felt. 4) Using 3 or 4 bolts, snug the housing down until proper drag is felt. 5) Keeping track of the total number of shims, then adjust the backlash as John says. 6) On final assembly the shim thickness on each side must equal the total gaskets used, some on each side. Doing as Les says can distort the side housings, and result in oil leaks and improper pre-load on the carrier brgs. Les is a friend of mine, and we have agreed to disagree on this matter. I'm surprised John's carrier is different than yours, must be English measurements! Good luck!

[bavArian]

I'm just as surprised about the different OD. Either someone turned it down for whatever reaseon (ring gear from a different model??) or the english cars really had different ring gears for some reason. Haven't found any trace of ring gears with a smaller inner diameter than 4.125" yet.


Using a feeler gauge seems like a good idea, we have a fine one for setting valve clearances so I'll try it out.

[Ak Sourdough]

Can you turn a little ring for between the carrier and the gear? Or a few little spots of weld then turn to the correct diameter. Wouldn't need to weld all around, just a few places to center the gear.

[bavArian]

Unfortunately not as my turning machine isn't big enough for that. (it's mainly for scale models, not for cars or machinery)
And having a ring machined probably isn't much cheaper than ordering a used diff carrier.

[john charlton]

The part I sent you had the correct part number on it so I assumed it was correct . My mistake I should have tried a ring gear on it before I went to the post office !!! So your good part is the same as the part I sent you I suppose . Just confirm you need the side which takes the ring gear and has male "pegs" I will mail you another one if that is the case no postage charge !!! . Sorry about the delay my mistake .

John in Suffolk County England .

[Tom Endy]

The attached article may be of help identifying the correct carrier half. The later carriers had a different part number for each side. A4205 is the ring gear side. A4206 is the non ring gear side. The diameter on the A4206 carrier side is smaller that the inside diameter of the ring gear.

Tom Endy

[john charlton]

Thank you Tom Sadly I did send the wrong side to Daniel .OOOOPS !!!. But in my defence it was marked A4205 and was not scalloped so visually it looked correct I did not pickup the fact the notches were female and the ring gear land area had been machined down to prevent a ring gear being fitted . It is a factory modification maybe Manchester ran out of A 4026 .It would be easy to do the change from male to female notches but not the other way around . I do have a spare B 4205 which I will send to Daniel no charge . I will take pics with a ring gear and axle in place . I hope I am right that the "B" axle carrier is the same as an "A" carrier to my eye they look identical .In my pic of the carrier I sent you can see where where the ring gear land has been machined down .

John in rainy dull Suffolk County England .

[bavArian]

Originally Posted by john charlton

The part I sent you had the correct part number on it so I assumed it was correct . My mistake I should have tried a ring gear on it before I went to the post office !!! So your good part is the same as the part I sent you I suppose . Just confirm you need the side which takes the ring gear and has male "pegs" I will mail you another one if that is the case no postage charge !!!

Hello John,


yes, the good part and your part are identical, apart from the part number.

Honestly, I wouldn't have thought to check the part before sending it out either, because how probable is it to get an altered carrier with the right number on it.
In Tom's article in the 2nd picture the right part is the correct one, with the 4 1/8 inch shoulder for the ring gear and the male pegs for centering.

I'll check your pics with my worn out part to make sure that it's the right part.
Can someone tell us if A and B used the same parts for the diff carrier?
Thanks and have a nice day,


Daniel

[Jim Brierley]

Use 3 feeler gauges, spaced evenly around the housing.

[Tom Endy]

The attached article may be of additional help.

Tom Endy

[bavArian]

Thanks for the article. I can't imagine how much time ends you must have spent working on Model A's in your life so far. :P


It may be a dumb idea and proven to not work, but if one has a diff carrier with excessive wear from the spider gears wouldn't it be possible to use or fabricate a shim to compensate for the wear? Much like the shims for being able to set the preload on the diff if the race is pressed in too far. I think that would be an option if no new or usable diff carrier can be found.

In the US, you could just get another diff carrier of course but I would imagine that they're quite rare in Europe or Australia.

[Jim Brierley]

Any shims should be quite thick, or they would be ground into dust in a hurry. The spider gears only turn when the vehicle is in a turn, so shimming is not usually necessary, and they cause no noise.

[bavArian]

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At least my old diff carrier is quite soft steel, or else I wouldn't have been able to machine it on my turning machine. If one used proper steel, lasercut the shims and surface-treated them they should last at least as long as the original diff carrier, especially as no one would abuse the diff like the farmers in the past with their belt-driven machines.
Of course, as long as good used carriers are available that won't be done because it's just not economic.

[bavArian]

*an eternity later*


So I finally got around to work on the A yesterday. We spent the entire day setting up the rear end with the 2nd carrier half that John sent me (again MASSIVE THANKS to John!) and getting the rear end under the car.
There are still a few smaller things to be done (tightening up the u-joint housing halves, mounting 1 shock, reattaching all brake rods) but apart from that the rear end should be good to go now.


Thanks for the help guys!

[bavArian]

Well, there *might* be a new problem. When assembling the rear drums on the new axles I get a scratching sound when turning the drum. It seems that the brake shoe rubs somewhere on the drum. Is that normal and not a big problem or do I need to take the brake assembly apart? I can still turn the drums by hand but there is a notable drag.


Edit: The drag is higher if I turn the drum backwards, if that is important.

[Big hammer]

* might* have a problem, yes! It sounds like the brake shoes are not centered. Suppliers sell a brake shoe centering tool, check the tool out online for you to get ideas on how to center the shoes.

[john charlton]

Just a thought adjust the brakes hard up on the adjuster then back fully off and try again . This could centralise the shoes maybe not but worth a try . Could be with the new axle shafts the drums have gone on a bit further and the drum is rubbing on the backplate , If so it can be fixed by fitting an axle shim something I dont really like as I think it upsets the hub axle bond . I know people have done many thousands of miles with no problems . If the drum is only just touching I grind a smidgeon off the drum edge .Yank the emergency brake on and off see if that helps .

John in cloudy windy Suffolk County England .

[bavArian]

I have axle shims, but when I use them there's no way I'll get the cotter pin inserted if I also use the axle shim between hub and nut. It seems that the drum is not rubbing on the backplate, so I'd like to go without the shims.



Honestly I doubt that centering the shoes with the drum like that works, but I'll give it a try.

If it doesn't work I'll probably just drive to the local hardware store tomorrow and get some materials to build a centering tool.

[Benson]

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