Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-15-2020, 06:49 AM   #21
Frank Miller
Senior Member
 
Frank Miller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auburn, MA
Posts: 1,798
Default Re: 1951 Ford overdrive

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
Grounding the wire will check the wire but not the points in the governor switch. Unscrew the governor and pull it out so you can check the points on the bench. If they open and close and have continuity when closed then the governor switch is OK. The flyweights should be secure and move easily. The gear should be metal. The governor shaft is held in the gear by a spring ring. Gear lash may be visible from the speedo gear side. If it has the wrong gear then there would be a problem. These governors were used on a lot of different cars and some had different gears depending on the transmission they were set up for.
If the wiring is ok up to 3 inches of the switch I think we can determine it is the switch. I was tring to give hime some alternatives to virtually removing the transmission. To remove the governor you nedd to unbolt the cross member and all associated linkage as well the speedo cable. You may need to lower engine to get at the 4 bolts that hold ot to the bellhousing. You can the rotate the transmission so you can get at the governor.
Also i saw you ordered a special wrench, I've removed mine with a pipe wrench or even water pump pliers. You can spin the governor with a drill motor while held in a vise and watch the action of the centrifugal part of the switch. I had to clean up the poins on mine once. Even harder on a convertible with the X frame.
__________________
“The technique of infamy is to start two lies at once and get people arguing heatedly over which is true.” ~ Ezra Pound
Frank Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2020, 09:14 AM   #22
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 11,831
Default Re: 1951 Ford overdrive

An old Ford adjustable wrench will generally work to loosen the governor. I know its a tight fit in there on Ford cars since there is no removable floor panel like the Mercs have but I would think that it still could be removed without all that trouble unless it's a convertible X-frame. The governor is aimed at an upward angle which should help with the cross member but I don't know about the floor. Ford car tunnels are a bit small. It might be easier to clean it off and try to get the screws out that hold the cap.

If it's that much trouble then a test light would make more sense. Attach a jumper lead to a convenient power terminal or the hot side of the battery and connect the test lamp to that jumper with the other side jumpered to the governor switch wire or terminal. Run the car up to on speed and the light should come on. It will go out at a slightly lesser speed when decelerating. That would confirm governor switch function anyway. Repairs might be another matter if required.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 05-15-2020, 10:36 AM   #23
mrlaser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Savannah, Ga
Posts: 171
Default Re: 1951 Ford overdrive

Thanks again. The car is a Victoria with a conventional, reinforced frame under the doors. This was a factory modification.
mrlaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2020, 02:01 PM   #24
mrlaser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Savannah, Ga
Posts: 171
Default Re: 1951 Ford overdrive

Well I have had a bit of luck on the floor pan issue. I was able to remove the governor with a 1 1/2" Martin open end wrench without any other changes. I assume that the floor pan "hump" was enlarged in 1951 because of the introduction of the Ford-O-Matic transmission. This provided the necessary clearance to be able to remove the governor. I will bench test the governor and provide more feedback. I thought that the floor pan information might be useful to someone in the future. Thanks for all your help.
mrlaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2020, 02:36 PM   #25
Ken Henry
Member
 
Ken Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 46
Default Re: 1951 Ford overdrive

I added an overdrive transmission to my 51 Deluxe, which originally had the standard three speed. I ran it for a long time with a toggle switch that simply provide 6V to the solenoid. Run the car up to speed in third gear, flip the switch, release the accelerator and you are in overdrive. Now I have the full control circuit which works well, though I find it slightly painful flooring the accelerator to disengage the OD at speed greater than the governor cutout. Good luck, the extra gear is fantastic
Ken Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2020, 02:38 PM   #26
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 11,831
Default Re: 1951 Ford overdrive

It makes sense about the floor pan. 1951 was the first year for the Ford-O-Matic but I think a lot more Mercury cars were sold with Merc-O-Matics than Ford cars with Ford-Os for that year. The Fords with 6-cylinders didn't get the Ford-O-Matic till 1952 when the 215 came out. Only the V8 was set up for it in 51. The bell housing with the air cooled torque converter is a big damn thing. It would have needed more room for that.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-15-2020 at 02:54 PM.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2020, 10:00 AM   #27
mrlaser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Savannah, Ga
Posts: 171
Default Re: 1951 Ford overdrive

As a f/u to my previous posts and my current status I am posting this summary:

I am asking for advice on the continuing problem I am having with my Borg Warner r10 OD. The transmission was professionally rebuilt several years ago ( but not put in service at that time) . The rest of the car's frame off restoration has now been completed. When driven, the transmission functions normally when the OD cable is pulled out. When the cable is pushed in, the transmission free wheels as expected. When approximately 30 mph is reached and the accelerator lifted, the OD does not engage and freewheeling continues. The wiring harness is new and the solenoid,governor, and relay were all NOS at the time of the rebuild. I have since replaced the relay and solenoid with new ones from Vintage Auto Garage. I also replaced the original governor with another NOS part. I have Randy Rundle's book and have tried testing the system as he described. In spite of these changes, I still cannot get the OD to engage. As a test, I have installed a toggle switch wired directly from the battery to the switch and then to the #4 terminal on the solenoid to bypass the other electrical components and wiring. When tested in the garage there is a click at the solenoid. When the switch is turned to the "on" position at 30 mph while driving and the accelerator pedal is monetarily lifted, the result is the same, with continued freewheeling. A few other details: the car is 6 volt positive ground and otherwise stock. Unfortunately the original transmission (elderly) re builder has since passed away. Also, when installing the second solenoid , I did turn the unit clockwise, while powered "on" to extend the shaft, then rotated it counterclockwise when it was in place to align the bolt holes. When the power was cut to the solenoid, it was drawn flush with the case. I should also mention that the transmission was originally briefly filled with synthetic GL-4 fluid and subsequently changed to GL-1 mineral oil based lubricant. I am now wondering what other testing might be helpful and have concerns that the problem could be an internal mechanical one. The transmission otherwise functions nominally. Very frustrating. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
mrlaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2020, 12:23 PM   #28
Ken Henry
Member
 
Ken Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 46
Default Re: 1951 Ford overdrive

Sorry to hear that it's still not working. Assuming #4 is the correct terminal on the overdrive solenoid, using a toggle switch to that should directly energize at and engage the overdrive when you lift off the accelerator. You've bypassed all the additional complexity which is good. When you push the overdrive lockout cable in does the arm on the overdrive shifts all the way back toward the tail shaft (is it properly adjusted to allow full movement of the OD lockout arm?). It seems like it might be something internal unfortunately... Ken
Ken Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2020, 01:02 PM   #29
mrlaser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Savannah, Ga
Posts: 171
Default Re: 1951 Ford overdrive

Ken,

Actually , I have removed the floor cover and can see the arm. It is is fully switched to the rear and I can hear a slight "click" when it is put in that position. Thank you for the suggestion.
mrlaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2020, 01:51 PM   #30
Ken Henry
Member
 
Ken Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 46
Default Re: 1951 Ford overdrive

You might give Mac Vanpelt in OH a call. He rebuilds these transmissions and may have some mechanical checks you can do with the unit still in the car. Ken


http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f..._contactpg.htm
Ken Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2020, 01:55 PM   #31
mrlaser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Savannah, Ga
Posts: 171
Default Re: 1951 Ford overdrive

While rereading the overdrive booklet I wondered whether the situation described in the attachments might be the problem and the solution. I'll give it a try and provide f/u.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 0601201446b.jpg (57.5 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg 0601201446a.jpg (49.8 KB, 26 views)
mrlaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2020, 02:01 PM   #32
mrlaser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Savannah, Ga
Posts: 171
Default Re: 1951 Ford overdrive

Thanks for your suggestion Ken. Before moving from Ohio to Savannah I lived near Mac Van pelt's operation. If I don't resolve the problem with the above steps I will give him a call.
mrlaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2020, 02:33 PM   #33
Ken Henry
Member
 
Ken Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 46
Default Re: 1951 Ford overdrive

Interesting, I hope that fix works for you. If not, I can tell you first hand that it is possible to ship a transmission to him via UPS in a wood crate. Mine weighed 135#... Good luck!
Ken Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2020, 05:54 PM   #34
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 11,831
Default Re: 1951 Ford overdrive

The balk ring will generally be set up in the correct position when putting the transmission together so it will stay in position unless someone turns the output shaft while the solenoid is removed (not uncommon). Folks love to turn transmissions to see if they will go into all the gears. There is enough room in there for it to rotate past the two ears that keep it in the function zone. Those instructions will allow it to be rotated back into the zone in alignment with the operating pawl. If the balk ring doesn't have enough tension between it and the gear plate, it may just stay in the down position due to its own weight. This would make it difficult to get it to rotate up to align with the pawl bore.

Hopefully, yours has enough tension to allow it to rotate with the turning of the shaft. I haven't found too many that are sloppy loose. Most hold their tension pretty well. If it's loose it will make noise when the transmission shifts into overdrive. Your book should mention that in the troubleshooting instructions.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2020, 07:40 AM   #35
mrlaser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Savannah, Ga
Posts: 171
Default Re: 1951 Ford overdrive

My fingers are crossed. Thanks everyone. BTW, any comments regarding the synthetic Gl-4 lubricant originally installed in the transmission?
mrlaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2020, 08:16 AM   #36
Frank Miller
Senior Member
 
Frank Miller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auburn, MA
Posts: 1,798
Default Re: 1951 Ford overdrive

Many will tell you not to use the synthetic lubricant for a lot of reasons. I've been running it for 45,000 miles all over the country. That's the only one I have to tell you it's ok but some will argue with that.
__________________
“The technique of infamy is to start two lies at once and get people arguing heatedly over which is true.” ~ Ezra Pound
Frank Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2020, 09:44 AM   #37
mrlaser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Savannah, Ga
Posts: 171
Default Re: 1951 Ford overdrive

This is a f/u to my ongoing struggle with the Borg Warner OD. As suggested in the citation pictured in one of my previous posts from the BW manual, the following steps were taken because overdrive would not engage:

With the OD t-handle pulled fully out, I rotated the driveshaft forward 360 degrees. I then loosened the cap screws holding the solenoid and withdrew it as far as possible. I held the solenoid in this position with a spacer and then rotated the driveshaft forward another 1/8 of a turn. I then re tightened the cap screws. When I later road tested the car, I was disappointed that the OD still would not engage. Obviously, I am concerned that when the unit was rebuilt something may not have been done correctly. On the other hand, as I mentioned previously the transmission and OD unit were initially filled with SYNTHETIC Gl-4 lubricant. This was switched, after about 70 miles, to Gl-1 after reading the following statement:

" And most important of all DO NOT use synthetic gear oil. It is too slippery and the sun gear will not engage. You will have to disassemble the transmission and get all of the synthetic residue off of the internal parts. That is not a fun task!"

I am wondering whether this may be a possible cause of the OD not engaging. While Synthetic Gl-4 may not cause yellow metal corrosion in the main transmission, it may lead to the OD malfunction.

Any thoughts or personal experience would be greatly appreciated.
mrlaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2020, 10:48 AM   #38
Jersey Devil
Senior Member
 
Jersey Devil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Delanco, New Jersey
Posts: 101
Default Re: 1951 Ford overdrive

I sent you a PM earlier in the week. In it I suggested that you get in touch with a member of the Early Ford V8 club in your area. The club members are willing to help and have lots of knowledge and experience. I was willing to provide some contacts.

There are members close to you that perhaps can help or steer you to someone that can. Sometimes having another set of “eyes” on a problem is all it takes.

I never got a reply to my message.

Tom
Jersey Devil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2020, 12:02 PM   #39
mrlaser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Savannah, Ga
Posts: 171
Default Re: 1951 Ford overdrive

Tom,
Sorry for the lack of a response. I am 4 hrs away from the nearest v8 club. I have actually already spoken with some of the members re this and other questions. All were willing, but didn't have any answers to this specific problem. I do plan to contact Mac Vanpelt if I can't resolve this issue. I do appreciate your help.
Bill
mrlaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2020, 02:10 PM   #40
Frank Miller
Senior Member
 
Frank Miller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auburn, MA
Posts: 1,798
Default Re: 1951 Ford overdrive

The sun gear does not care about oil as much as the one way clutch, at least according to what you saw on fifth ave. At least that is how I read it. If the one way clutch does not work you will not be going forward with the handle pushed in.
__________________
“The technique of infamy is to start two lies at once and get people arguing heatedly over which is true.” ~ Ezra Pound
Frank Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:11 PM.