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Old 11-01-2019, 01:58 PM   #1
Werner
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Default Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Hallo,

I have an uncertain question.

After opening the valve chamber, I discovered a strange hole in the front open to the timing gear chamber. It looks like a very irregular breakthrough.

Is that correct?


Thank you all for helpfull answers.
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File Type: jpg P1010031.jpg (67.9 KB, 164 views)
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Old 11-01-2019, 02:06 PM   #2
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

It is ugly and not the German way. The pathway for oil to flow over the timing gears. One place where labor money was saved. The guy who bashed the hole there in the block only had time for two hits with the hammer. Those who have used a die grinder to detail the ragged edges never saw an improvement but they slept much better.
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Old 11-01-2019, 02:08 PM   #3
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

You can see a similar hole here in this block being rebuilt:

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Old 11-01-2019, 02:10 PM   #4
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Hi Werner
No, that does not look correct! In mid May a hole [3/8"] was provided to get extra oil to the rear cam bearing & earlier blocks were sometimes drilled for this, but not to timing gears. Looks like someone had a mishap or misguided attempt to improve lubrication. I personally would not worry ; at a later time if you have to take the engine down, you could get it fixed. Cheers.
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Old 11-01-2019, 02:13 PM   #5
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

I too, have seen a number of blocks that look about like this one in question. I have heard that that is just how the were!
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Old 11-01-2019, 02:32 PM   #6
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

I bought a brand new (Not rebuilt) Diamond engine that had never been assembled. It had the busted out hole above the timing gear for timing gear lubrication.
Worked on many Model A engines and never saw one without the busted out hole above the timing gear.
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Old 11-01-2019, 02:33 PM   #7
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Normal.
Paul in CT
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Old 11-01-2019, 03:54 PM   #8
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Perfectly normal from what I have seen in many engine blocks. It might be a crude way of doing things but IT WORKS. What else do you need?
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Old 11-01-2019, 04:19 PM   #9
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Normal. Ford did vary the positioning of the hole to vary with a change in valve chamber oil "level." This occurred about the time the timing cover oil return pipe was lowered - ostensibly a move to "reduce oil consumption." August 1929 IIRC.

Steve Plucker may have information on this - he's done a "type study" on block details - I think it's online.

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Old 11-01-2019, 04:45 PM   #10
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Here is a picture of the hole, seen from the timing gear side, taken when my engine was being rebuilt.
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Old 11-01-2019, 09:56 PM   #11
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Steve Plucker's "type study" of Model A Engine Blocks is "ongoing."

Joe K

http://www.plucks329s.org/studies/studies.htm
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Old 11-02-2019, 03:39 AM   #12
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Thank you all for the helpful hints about the "mystic hole". I am calm now! -

At Steeve Plucker "Pluck": What extraordinarily valuable diligence works!
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Old 11-02-2019, 07:29 AM   #13
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

The hole was in the casting pattern, and not bashed-in. Having taken apart many engines, the hole in question is rarely nice and round. More often it is irregular.

The concern with an irregular hole in the block casting is that the bottom of it is about level with the top of the nearby lifter bore. If the hole extends too low, it lowers the oil level in the valve chamber, so I paste a piece of sheet metal with a round hole in it to the front wall of the valve chamber. JB Weld works well for this fix.
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File Type: jpg Engine Block Looking Fwd In Valve Chamber.jpg (11.6 KB, 198 views)
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Old 11-02-2019, 07:32 AM   #14
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Ive knocked a lot of those holes in v8 blocks at the Cleveland Ford Casting plant. We used an air tool with a round chisel designed for that job RAY
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Old 11-02-2019, 07:49 AM   #15
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Restorer magazine jan/feb 1998, pg 22, one full written page on busted out hole in valve chamber. The hole must be higher than the first dam in order for the oil to build up and run back over the first dam to get to the center and rear main. The article states that most likely it was busted out to facilitate replacing timing gear. When I rebuilt my engine I followed the instructions, used a piece of flat metal 1/8 x 1 x 2 drilled one hole 1/4" it, and one hole the web of busted out area, fastened to web with a 1/4" bolt and jb weld, just above the level of the first dam. Then drilled another hole below the top of the new dam, 5/16 diameter to feed oil to the timing gear.
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Old 11-02-2019, 02:34 PM   #16
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Hello everybody,

I thought again. (Last night, the whole day ...) I can not believe that the breakthrough was "just hit somewhere" inside. Because then the correct height of the overflow for the oil pipe is at the wrong (too low) level.

I measured it.

1) The lowest overflow edge from the return opening in the valve cover.

2) The lower edge of the breakthrough. I have marked marks outside. (see picture)

It can be clearly seen that the lower edge of the break hole is about 1/4 inch below the discharge edge of the return pipe.

Then the return pipe would make no sense, because the oil level does not reach the return opening.
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Old 11-02-2019, 02:58 PM   #17
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Don't forget the rear of the engine sits lower than the front.


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Old 11-02-2019, 06:10 PM   #18
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

There is no return pipe, the pipe you see is the oil supply, the oil returns over top of the front dam.
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Old 11-02-2019, 10:14 PM   #19
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick c View Post
There is no return pipe, the pipe you see is the oil supply, the oil returns over top of the front dam.

The black pipe on the outside of the engine from the valve cover to the block is indeed a oil return.


Where would the oil go when driving up a long hill?
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Old 11-03-2019, 08:45 AM   #20
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

It would all go to the center and rear main then to oil return pipe on outside engine. Another question might be where would all the oil go on a long down hill run if the jagged hole was too low.
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Old 11-03-2019, 03:39 PM   #21
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick c View Post
It would all go to the center and rear main then to oil return pipe on outside engine. Another question might be where would all the oil go on a long down hill run if the jagged hole was too low.
What would happen if the Engine did not have that pipe ??
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Old 02-23-2020, 02:32 PM   #22
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

In cold weather with thick oil and no warmup time , the oil would try to fill the entire valve cavity, starving the rods?
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Old 02-23-2020, 02:50 PM   #23
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

The elevation of the "return pipe" was changed in May 1930 (p. 342) - the same time that the height was changed on the front hole in the block.

The corresponding difference between heights (1/4"?) remains the same (compensation for engine slant) but later positioning of the returns (plural) is lower - "To reduce oil consumption" ostensibly in oil thrown up and onto the valve stems.

Somewhere, in one of the magazines, the "oil control dam" is discussed, and the author made a plastic valve chamber cover - so the oil height could be seen and the effectiveness of either drain port ascertained. IIRC the conclusion of the article proved out Ford's rationale about reduced oil consumption. He also had some comments about the Model B with no oil pipe - and the internal passage for oil.

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Old 02-23-2020, 03:21 PM   #24
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

How about no oil return pipe.


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Old 02-23-2020, 03:29 PM   #25
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Russian influence.
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Old 02-23-2020, 03:48 PM   #26
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brentwood Bob View Post
Russian influence.

Nope, see Vince's site. http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/ABva...rvarieties.htm
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Old 02-23-2020, 05:23 PM   #27
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Huh.
A rare bird.
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Old 02-24-2020, 02:21 AM   #28
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

The oil pump will pump more than enough oil. If it’s too low a hole, how did the engine survive the first few months of service?
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Old 02-24-2020, 07:25 AM   #29
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Keep in mind that the oil doesn't just calmly flow around in the engine but is a splash system that turns the inside into an oil mist filled area. A hot fog of oily vapor flows through the chambers and a hole like that would allow the mist too flow into those areas. That is why on old engines the outside around the breather pipe is coated with an oily mess.
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Old 02-24-2020, 07:08 PM   #30
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Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Check the hight of the hole against the dam where the valve tapet is. There was a dam where that hole is that let oil flow to the timing gear, however it became popular in the 70's to smash the dam out with a hammer to allow more oil flow to the timing gears. While most peolpe that did this didn't have any problems, there was a side effect. You see sith that dam smashed the oil didn't get high enough in the valve chamber to allow the desired flow to the rear valves, as it had to over come all the seperate dams within the valve chamber.
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