8BA tooling.

[Tod]

I will be starting to cut new 8BA tooling soon. Just for the sake of reference, how many people here think they might want a block when I have them available?


Tod

[KiWinUS]

< Very possible

[tubman]

I don't think this board is a fair representation of the potential market for a new block. We are primarily a bunch of old farts that already have (at least I do) a couple of completed engines and a couple of more good blocks "under the bench". I think the primary demand for these is going to be younger guys building "high-end" rods and, excuse the expression, "gold-chainers" trying to one-up each other. I would also expect a good part of the demand will be from the foreign market; Europeans, the Japanese, and yes, even Russians and the Chinese. Another factor that might come into play is whether some of the sanctioning organizations will allow these in competition. (The SCTA doesn't allow French blocks, the last I heard.)

I think that there will be sufficient demand for these, but you may not be getting the best indication of what it would be from here.

[Ol' Ron]

Actually, allot depends on the finished price of the new block and what it offers. Usable blocks are getting harder to find, and when you do find a block the cost of checking it out and machining it brings the price up. I see no reason why you couldn'r supply a block with a finished size of 3 5/16, That way a stock ford 3 3/4 crank would give 265 ci and reduce the cost of a total rebuild. At present the cost of rebuilding a stock engine is getting over 4K$ and that isn't going to get amy lower. The Major reason why Flathead have lost their favor in the street rod circle is labor cost of preparing the old block.

[jrvariel48]

What kind of $$$ are we talking?

[Tod]

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Originally Posted by jrvariel48

What kind of $$$ are we talking?

Probably in the $2300-2500 range. Depends on actual casting cost. I can estimate right now but I won't know for sure until we start making them.


Tod

[Frank Miller]

My personal thought is that anything under 3 k should be marketable. Some talked about prepping an old block but remember Todd is designing a new block with a few improvements that cannot be done on an old block. You also have the added security of not running on 80 year old cast iron. How much is a French block and those still need work done to them.

[flatheadmurre]

If the block comes with 3 5/16 bore and can take 3 3/8 without any issues and improved flow in the intake exhaust so there is no need to start porting, beefier main caps then the price will be very competitive.
What kind of warranty will there be on them ?

[rotorwrench]

I am interested but it may have to sit for a while before I would be able to build it up. If it stays in that range, the price will be OK. If it goes too far out I'd have to think longer and harder about it. Shipping will be up there too but in bare form it shouldn't be too bad in effort or price. It will really be nice to see one built up & running and find out what all has to be done to get it there.

[Bored&Stroked]

Hey Tod: I'm most certainly interested - depending on what cubic inches the block can support (with thick enough cylinder walls), the strength of the main webbing and main caps and the overall ports.

I'm getting ready to build a pretty bad-ass Ardun - would love to use one of your blocks as the foundation for it (obviously it has it's own ports). I will PM you, want to run something else by you . . . don't need to bother everybody with my hair-brained ideas! LOL

[Krylon32]

So they would be priced below the cost of the French block which I think are now going for 3995? They'll sell!

[flatrod]

I would be interested in a block as well.

[JM 35 Sedan]

I would be interested if the actual cost stays in the range you mention, and if it happens within the next few years, otherwise I'll be too far over the hill to think about building any more engines. I had always hoped that Mark Kirby would get his dream FH block into production, but that's probably never going to happen.

[brsturges]

I would be interested at that price.

[bssmnbll]

I would be interested, if all goes well, and if it were available within the next few years. None of us are getting any younger.

[corvette8n]

Put me on the list.

[Admiral]

I'd be VERY interested. The price is much less than I would have ever thought.

[Bent-8]

At that price, I'm interested.

[47 flatbed]

I'm in

[Ol' Ron]

I can't afford one at present. However, I would assemble one at no labor charge in stock form, if I could dyno it.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I can't afford one at present. However, I would assemble one at no labor charge in stock form, if I could dyno it.

I like the idea. I usually machine the first sample casting even if it isn't sellable, just to dial in machine programming. So far, every fist block I have ever made, even if not sellable, has been buildable for testing.


I was thinking of cutting an intake port in plastic and letting you flow it. I can do that first and then while we check the port I can be cutting tooling that need cut no matter what changes may need made to the port, if any.


Tod

[Bored&Stroked]

Intake Port: One thing to consider is potentially lowering the guide and associated horseshoe clip retainer groove say .187 to .250 inches. Many of us run Chevy valves (or can) anyway and this would help us increase the spring pressure (without a bunch of shims) and would give you more room in the floor to make a better sweeping transition into the port.

The stock port has a lot of flow issues in the bottom/back and how the shortside turn has to transition. There is not much room to do much with it (due to water both above and below the port). I can see no reason for not removing the water on the intakes all together.

Also, look how little material we have to work with in the back of the bowl - is an area that a lot of 'newbie' porters cut through.

Here is a cross section of a stock port - sure looks like a few key modifications could vastly improve it's flow potential - which would help any of us that want to build performance engines (and the guys paying for this block would surely include a lot of those types of guys).

PortCutaway_CloseUp.jpg

Here is a 'manually' hacked up image to kind of show the new bottom:

IntakePortWithMods1.jpg

I would still profile the stock guide to match the port floor in the new (lower) floor area where I removed the water. Hopefully you get the idea.

NOTE: Per Ol' Ron's post below - I only showed some proposed work on the bottom (for an example). I totally agree that the top (short side) work provide a lot of benefit - and potentially MORE than the bottom. I tend to raise the top as much as possible and am extremely mindful of that dang water up there! Would surely like to see it removed on the intake side.

[Ol' Ron]

This is a good example of how different builders configure their their porting as well a other parts of the engine. In my case I raise the top & bottom of the port. eliminating the water jacket around the intake port would allow us to widen the top of the port to the size of the intake valve. In my case the 1.72 chevy valve for street and up to 1.8 for racing. unfortunately the bowl is the biggest problem and the only way to cure that is to eliminate it all together. The far side of the bowl takes air from the bottom of the port and shuts off the air from the top of the port.
Unfortunately I no longer have a flow bench so I have to use some computer programs run by my grandson. I I have an idea on how to eliminate this, however it has nothing to do with the block casting. Old age and bad eyesight has prevented me from proceeding with this project. I now have a crank assy and am filling a block wit plastic steel around the intake port. If, a big if this works I should be able to dyno this engine to prove a point.
Only time will tell.
Gramps

[barnfind]

I would be interested at that price range.
Will make me keep my boat anchors around a while longer to see how it works out

[jbrittonjr]

I'm in.

[Russ/40]

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What machine work will be left to the builder?

[JWL]

The best flow I found(with intake ports without water) is a 3 1/2" radius from the straight section into the 60 degree cut below the seat in the bowl with 1.780 valves. Upper end of block port at 1 3/8", at intake manifold, tapering to 1 5/16 at the beginning of the 3 1/2" radius.

[2935ford]

Are any of these blocks in real world testing out on the road?
Or have I missed some posts?

[vilanar]

Count me in....very interested

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Tod

I will be starting to cut new 8BA tooling soon. Just for the sake of reference, how many people here think they might want a block when I have them available?

Tod

Here's a harebrained idea! Hold a 'porting challenge' to find the best port shape:

Tod casts the upper portion of one cylinder with OEM bolt locations, centerlines, valve locations, etc., but with extra meat around the ports. Set up a contest like "Engine Masters". Each contestant gets a dummy cylinder and has at it, using their own valves and chunk of cylinder head. On a set date, all the cylinder/head assemblies are taken to one location(like the college where "Engine Masters" is held) and tested on the same flow bench. Winner gets a prize, maybe a new block. Make the entry fee high enough to cover costs or maybe get a sponsor.
Here's a chance for porters (backyard or professionals) to show their stuff. Plus, this new block will get the latest, best port design!
For the ambitious, maybe also cast interchangeable exhaust runners (end and center) to bolt to the cylinder to see what improvements show up here.
Or mold it out of clear plastic. A club or association or sponsor could handle the details of when, where, how much, etc.
"Knowledge is power!" "Put your money where your mouth is!" "Put up or shut up!" Etc. Etc.

[jimTN]

Sounds like a great project. I agree with Ron about the bore size, there are plenty of 8BA blocks around that will go with small bore. I would add mounting holes for stablizers bars used on 32-48 cars.

[Ol' Ron]

right now I think the point of this block is to replace the original. Everybody, including me have their own little ax to grind. However the truth is no racing body will except it in competion, and it wouldn't pass for an original replacement block in an antique inspection.
I think Tod is in a great place if he makes a block to suit everybody that just need a reliable replacement BLOCK. The obvious choice would be a 27 bolt casting with all the necessary bolt holes to satisfy everybody. This would have an 8BA bell housing. Ford makes adapters to convert to post 49 engines. Any head & intake will fitl. What this will accomplish is: at a reasonable a stock type engine can be reproduced for everyone. The added use of the block if some of the other improvements are made without trying to produce an LS version of the Flathead. Lets get it built. Having worked for a company that pores 200 tons of cast iron a week (Small ant) , I understand some of the problems getting the casting from a liquid state to a machinable chunk of metal.

[tubman]

I heartily agree with Ol' Ron.

[dmdeaton]

put me on the list, where do we sign up?

[Tod]

Originally Posted by dmdeaton

put me on the list, where do we sign up?

I will probably come through the thread and jot down all screen names and then contact you all by Private Message. I think there are at least 20 that can be sold right out of the gate. I will be meeting with an iron foundry this week to go over various castings I need until I am ready to pour stuff in my own foundry.


Tod

[Tod]

Started cutting the driver side intake port core box for the new 8BA engine block today. The picture is of the beginning of the finish pass. I have a lot going on so I will be pecking away at this until it is ready to cast a first sample.


Tod

[19Fordy]

Tod, you are amazing. Thanks for what you are doing.

[Admiral]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Tod, you are amazing. Thanks for what you are doing.

I think "amazing" is an insufficient adjective... This whole project is so exciting. KEEP UP THE INCREDIBLE WORK, TOD!

[Bored&Stroked]

Keep going Tod - I love seeing the progress and the fact that you're undertaking this effort and hopefully members of the Barn can step-up and buy some of your resulting blocks!

THANK YOU!

[Tod]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Tod, you are amazing. Thanks for what you are doing.

Let's not over-state things. I'm just an every day, ordinary guy. I just happen to do this for a living.


On another note, I finished cutting the driver-side intake port core box today. A late afternoon meeting with a couple of people stopped me short of pulling it out of the machine, though. Almost!


Tod

[rotorwrench]

I agree that you are what you feel you are but guys with a passion for casting iron don't grow on trees. I think most of us can tell you really like what you are doing there.

Most of us watched in earnest while Motor City was experimenting and Flathead Jack's was showing core models on his site and that. We were all hoping someone would do it but each sort of fizzled out due to one cause or another. The hope is still there but perhaps some reality is coming. Don't be surprised about our praise. We are all flathead V8 fans here.

[19Fordy]

[QUOTE=Tod;1599789]Let's not over-state things. I'm just an every day, ordinary guy. I just happen to do this for a living.


Tod, curious to know your background, how you learned your skills and what your company produces. Having all these high tech machining centers is a big capital outlay for sure. Not trying to be nosey but, I am intrigued by your ability as traditional tool and die makers seems to be on the decline. Thanks.

[Tod]

[QUOTE=19Fordy;1600047]

Originally Posted by Tod

Let's not over-state things. I'm just an every day, ordinary guy. I just happen to do this for a living.


Tod, curious to know your background, how you learned your skills and what your company produces. Having all these high tech machining centers is a big capital outlay for sure. Not trying to be nosey but, I am intrigued by your ability as traditional tool and die makers seems to be on the decline. Thanks.

What a long, boring, story that would be.


Tod

[19Fordy]

OK. I understand. But, I bet it's an interesting story.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

OK. I understand. But, I bet it's an interesting story.

Generally, not really. There are countless details over 40 years that might interest some people. I can sum up foundry tooling - if you can count to 2 you can do it. There are 2 kinds of "lines" used to make patterns, straight lines and curves. The blueprints even told us where to put them. So much for that. Then on to the simplest thing I've ever done in my life - machining with CNC equipment. The machines are binary, using zero's and 1's to communicate operations/movements. So, if you can count to 1, you can run a CNC machine. Yep, my whole life is reduced to making things that fly, run on tracks, bulldoze, and shoot projectiles in the military (tanks), make cars move and stop, move air, hold product in plastic packages, anchor Navy ships, keep mail moving, look nice on buildings (like the Trump Taj Mahal) and countless other things, and I only need to be able to count to 2. Not very impressive.


Tod

[19Fordy]

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Gee, I can count to 100 but you've got me beat. Please keep counting just like you do as flathead folks are depending on you.

[Kb65]

I'm interested, put me on the list

[Russ/40]

Second try, Tod, exactly what machine work will need be done by the builder?

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Russ/40

Second try, Tod, exactly what machine work will need be done by the builder?

Sorry, got distracted.


Will need to finish cylinders to customer size, finish main and cam bores to size, hone lifter bores, and grind valve seats. Also, need valve guides installed. I may leave decks a little high like all my other blocks so they can be dialed in to the finished crank bores.


Tod

[Ol' Ron]

I don't think,having any machine work other cylinder bore finishing. Will help sales line boring cam tunnels and lifter bores is not optional machine work and will reduce the value of the block. adding more $$$$ to the build. Should be a finished block!

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I don't think,having any machine work other cylinder bore finishing. Will help sales line boring cam tunnels and lifter bores is not optional machine work and will reduce the value of the block. adding more $$$$ to the build. Should be a finished block!

Have to agree here 100%!!

Been following along here with some interest but what I see above here now with respect to the required "finish" machining will only leave a limited number of shops that even have the equipment to get all of that add'l machining done?? This is if I'm reading the requirements correctly!

Not too many shops in my area can do the lifter bore work (boring or honing) and even less can do the cam tunnel boring! I know most of the shops near me!

The deck heights and the cylinder finish honing (to size) isn't a problem for most?

Good luck, a very good friend of mine has traveled this road, making both iron and aluminum castings, SBC's, BBC's, Fords, Mopars, including blocks, heads, manifolds, etc., and just recently retired and sold out to very large vendor!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I'd like to see many shops just "hold" the center-to-center on the cam/crank dimension after a conventional line bore/hone, especially on a Flathead yet!!

[Russ/40]

Originally Posted by Tod

Sorry, got distracted.


Will need to finish cylinders to customer size, finish main and cam bores to size, hone lifter bores, and grind valve seats. Also, need valve guides installed. I may leave decks a little high like all my other blocks so they can be dialed in to the finished crank bores.


Tod

Im thinking that combination is a prescription for failure. Your only audience with those after sale machine requirements is the very high end builder. We are not big block race motor customers. We are lowly flathead drivers. The list of interested customers just dropped 98%. Just got to lay it out Todd.

[Henry Floored]

I'm in.

[40 Deluxe]

I too would be concerned about all the necessary machining. Maybe you could have several options for machining, from near nothing to everything but final cylinder honing. I would think that once you have the block in your CNC machine it would be relatively easy to do all the machine work. More profit for you, less expense and hassle for the end user. Out here in the hinterlands, it is easy to find shops that do a good job on cylinder bore and hone, and valve seats, but more difficult and time consuming to find a shop to line bore, and very hard to find one to do cam tunnels and lifter bores.
Are you set up to do custom work such as different deck heights and valve seat diameters, or are you more production oriented (every block the same)?

[Russ/40]

Tod's silent on the latest. Hopefully he is assessing expense with a more build ready option.

[Ol' Ron]

All this is doable, it just cost money, Having worked in the machine tool industry. I can say this is a major project. I just cut the first two cylinders off of a block to inspect the water passages, and hoe to fill them with plastic steel. Believe me when I say the cores for the casting is gona be a bitch to cast. This was one of the major problems Henry had in the beginning.

[rotorwrench]

The only thing that I can see there that is a bit off the wall is the final finishing of the cam bearing bores. Align boring/honing mains is not that big a deal and the cam bores are similar. Getting it all centered up is up to the machinist. The flathead engines take someone who is pretty sharp to insure everything is where it's supposed to be since they are geared cam drive. If the the tappet bores are relatively close in size then honing them shouldn't be a problem. Most of the machine shops here in SA are geared toward the standard OHV engines. There is likely only one shop here that is geared more toward flathead machine work but most have machines that can handle about any type of block. If a person wants hardened seats in the valve pockets then that would be a choice that would be optional but wouldn't break the bank. I still have a set of brand new standard size Mercury pistons that I'd like to use up without sleeving a whole block to do it. Like Ron says, it's just a matter of money. One guy might want something different than another guy so a person has to have a happy medium.

[Tod]

The goal will be to provide as much machining as possible to produce production run blocks that have the least amount of finish machining to do. My pricing will need to reflect investment in tooling, additional set up, programming and time. If you want a block that is totally machined for every conceivable engine build so that all you have to do is throw parts at it and they fall into place, for under $2500, then you will have to buy one from the other people making these blocks.


Tod

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by Tod

The goal will be to provide as much machining as possible to produce production run blocks that have the least amount of finish machining to do. My pricing will need to reflect investment in tooling, additional set up, programming and time. If you want a block that is totally machined for every conceivable engine build so that all you have to do is throw parts at it and they fall into place, for under $2500, then you will have to buy one from the other people making these blocks.


Tod

Could you expand on the projected required machining necessary to have the valve seats (assuming inserts at least on the exhausts, intakes aren't really needed) ready to assemble??

Most all of the aftermarket blocks we use need only the deck hgts done and the bores finish-honed, all the other CNC'd dimensions when machined by the vendor's are "workable" for the most part. Obviously there's no valve seat work needed on conventional V-8 blocks??

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Just curious about the valve/seat area requirements basically on your "as-delivered" casting!!

[rotorwrench]

I'm thinking that my safest course of action would be to take one of my original unmolested 8BA blocks with me to the machine shop in case they need it to check machine settings. A lot of them don't have real modern machines. I would just want to be certain that they didn't ruin anything. My experiences with machine shops have been pretty good but I've heard a few horror stories. With an investment like that, a person should cover their bases as best they can. I have an old manual lathe and mill but have no machines to do all the work required on this type of project so I'd be at their mercy.

[19Fordy]

I suspect the average person buying one of these "new" blocks would want as much of the machining done at the point of sale as possible rather than have to "farm it out" with a hope and a prayer to another shop. Most shops don't mess with flatheads.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by GOSFAST

Could you expand on the projected required machining necessary to have the valve seats (assuming inserts at least on the exhausts, intakes aren't really needed) ready to assemble??

Most all of the aftermarket blocks we use need only the deck hgts done and the bores finish-honed, all the other CNC'd dimensions when machined by the vendor's are "workable" for the most part. Obviously there's no valve seat work needed on conventional V-8 blocks??

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Just curious about the valve/seat area requirements basically on your "as-delivered" casting!!

I will chamfer the valve seats during machining like I do on my Model A iron blocks and the builder will have to seat the valves. I do not know what the cost to seat valves is. I will bore the cam and crank during machining and they will have to be line honed. I will ream the end journals (cam and crank) to within .01 and then bore the center journals to within .01. The cylinders will be bored to within .01 of stock. If someone wants larger than stock their builder will have to do it. Lifter bores will be reamed to size and shouldn't need touched. The valve guide bores will be reamed to size. Obviously, I will bore the lifter holes before reaming to make sure they are in the right spots. Same with the valve guide holes. Decks will be left a little high (say .01 or.02) like I do with all blocks I have ever made.


Tod

[Ol' Ron]

I'm glad to see this, it will make it easier for a shop to finish the block for the average builder. Will you make provisions for the 21 stud heads. Any changes to the water jackets around the intake ports for racers?. These kind of mods will increase sales. I have a fellow interested in getting one, I hope//

[keith oh]

How great it would be to even hope for 21 bolt 35-36 blocks being available for our original restoring.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I'm glad to see this, it will make it easier for a shop to finish the block for the average builder. Will you make provisions for the 21 stud heads. Any changes to the water jackets around the intake ports for racers?. These kind of mods will increase sales. I have a fellow interested in getting one, I hope//

I have not made allowance for 21 stud yet.


Tod

[tubman]

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Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I'm glad to see this, it will make it easier for a shop to finish the block for the average builder. Will you make provisions for the 21 stud heads. Any changes to the water jackets around the intake ports for racers?. These kind of mods will increase sales. I have a fellow interested in getting one, I hope//

Ron,

Isn't this just what you were advising against about a page back? Maybe the changes to the intake water jackets, but provisions for 21 studs? I would think that would be a bridge to far.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by tubman

Ron,

Isn't this just what you were advising against about a page back? Maybe the changes to the intake water jackets, but provisions for 21 studs? I would think that would be a bridge to far.

I went past the intake question by accident. I have increased the intake ports and softened the turn from intake to deck surfaces. The jacket has been changed to allow more porting to my design and with little chance of break-through.


Tod

[rotorwrench]

Thanks for this info. This is all good to know. It will just be a matter of finishing and that is generally just an align hone to fit with the centers already correct. The decks wouldn't be bad either as long as the machine shop has good machinery for finishing.

Many of the later 1951 & on blocks had no valve seat inserts at all. If someone wants them, it's just a matter of counter boring for them and installing as needed. I think I would go without. The cast iron technology and composition is likely a lot better for durability that is was in the early 50s. In any case, they would likely only need the exhausts done like Ford did them for trucks in the later part of the 8BA era. It would be kind of neat cutting or grinding in seats on a block that has not yet had any. Most of the ones I've found over the years had a lot of wear on them.

[tubman]

I think that this will be alright. The folks buying these would be using the best machine shops they can find, who should be up to the task.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by tubman

I think that this will be alright. The folks buying these would be using the best machine shops they can find, who should be up to the task.

Let's hope so. My first inclination was to bash a build shop that can't finish machine one of these, but in my experience most shops aren't really engine machine shops, so I will try to help out on my end. I know 2 local shops that can't do extensive machining but they can still do quite a bit of finish work. If someone wants me to use local shops for a ready-to-assemble block that is a possibility. I have at least 4 shops to choose from.


Tod

[Frank Miller]

Originally Posted by Tod

Let's hope so. My first inclination was to bash a build shop that can't finish machine one of these, but in my experience most shops aren't really engine machine shops, so I will try to help out on my end. I know 2 local shops that can't do extensive machining but they can still do quite a bit of finish work. If someone wants me to use local shops for a ready-to-assemble block that is a possibility. I have at least 4 shops to choose from.


Tod

That's a great idea. It give the buyer the option of what to buy and offers them machining that may not be available in their area. The plus is once a machine shop has done a few of these i would think it setup would go quicker.

[Ol' Ron]

To allow a casting to offer either 21 or 24 studs, is relatively simple, Just place a bung where the 21 stud heads go. then they can be drilled and tapped. all the rest of the holes are in the same place. I used a 24 stud head gasket on the 21 stud build for the larger bore.,

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

To allow a casting to offer either 21 or 24 studs, is relatively simple, Just place a bung where the 21 stud heads go. then they can be drilled and tapped. all the rest of the holes are in the same place. I used a 24 stud head gasket on the 21 stud build for the larger bore.,

Right. I just haven't done it yet. I probably will put in the bosses so it is accounted for from the start.


Tod

[Bored&Stroked]

I like the idea of the extra 21 Stud bosses - will be something that a few guys that want a "21 stud looking engine" will utilize. Obviously if one really knows how to look at an early block (starting with the integral bell housing), they'll know an engine built with this new block is not original.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by keith oh

How great it would be to even hope for 21 bolt 35-36 blocks being available for our original restoring.

That's a whole 'nuther animal. Sales drive my desire to make things.


Tod

[Ol' Ron]

I thinl we have a winner here.

[Tod]

21 stud gasket on my 8BA.


Tod

[Ol' Ron]

Just think, Now the 21 stud guys can have a 258 cR 8:1 Cr engine with all stock bolt on stuff. With 8BA crank and rods. I remember putting an 8BA crank in Paul Howard's 37 21 stud engine. We were then going to do that with a Merc crank, but never got around to it. Sure miss him, RIP

[Yoyodyne]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Just think, Now the 21 stud guys can have a 258 cR 8:1 Cr engine with all stock bolt on stuff. With 8BA crank and rods. I remember putting an 8BA crank in Paul Howard's 37 21 stud engine. We were then going to do that with a Merc crank, but never got around to it. Sure miss him, RIP

I think the 21 stud pattern will limit the bore to about 3-3/16". That's .125 over stock 21 stud bore and the wall gets real close to the studs at the bottom of the cylinder

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Yoyodyne

I think the 21 stud pattern will limit the bore to about 3-3/16". That's .125 over stock 21 stud bore and the wall gets real close to the studs at the bottom of the cylinder

That is probably true, but only if using the block in a 21 stud application and they are drilled out. In the case of the typical 24 stud usage, the cast bosses would be below the deck, but not used. Therefore, we can "hopefully" bore all the way to 3 7/16 and still have decent cylinder wall thickness. I'd love to go to 3 1/2", but this starts to make head gasket sealing an issue.

Hmmmm . . . maybe I'll think about high quality 3/8" 'step studs' and go to 3 1/2". I'll have to look into that!

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

That is probably true, but only if using the block in a 21 stud application and they are drilled out. In the case of the typical 24 stud usage, the cast bosses would be below the deck, but not used. Therefore, we can "hopefully" bore all the way to 3 7/16 and still have decent cylinder wall thickness. I'd love to go to 3 1/2", but this starts to make head gasket sealing an issue.

Hmmmm . . . maybe I'll think about high quality 3/8" 'step studs' and go to 3 1/2". I'll have to look into that!

Right. I can have a machining program for blocks with 21 studs and one for 24. There are some bosses that will need to be elongated because bosses for the 21 and 24 are pretty close together in a few spots but not close enough to use the same round boss.


Tod

[flatheadmurre]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

That is probably true, but only if using the block in a 21 stud application and they are drilled out. In the case of the typical 24 stud usage, the cast bosses would be below the deck, but not used. Therefore, we can "hopefully" bore all the way to 3 7/16 and still have decent cylinder wall thickness. I'd love to go to 3 1/2", but this starts to make head gasket sealing an issue.

Hmmmm . . . maybe I'll think about high quality 3/8" 'step studs' and go to 3 1/2". I'll have to look into that!

Calculate the minimum thread that will hold up and machine the block for it ??

[Yoyodyne]

I've pondered how to build a big bore engine with water pump heads. If Tod would sell a block with all the bosses in the right place but the head stud pattern drilled for 24 stud, or perhaps undrilled, you could drill the extra studs for 21 stud heads slightly offset away from the cylinders. I was poking around under the deck of a late block and wishing for some material to appear right there, that would have solved my block availability problem.
I think there's enough metal in the iron heads to relocate those holes by stepped sleeves. Aluminum 21 stud heads could maybe be ordered without those holes drilled. I wonder why Ford added studs instead of just relocating them, anyone here have sealing problems with 21 stud heads in that area?

[37 Cab]

It still needs to breathe. I just wonder how well a 3 1/2 engine would breathe even ported.

[Ol' Ron]

I can't believe we're talking about boring this to 3 1/2", when no matter what we do with the ports we won't be able to feed it. Assuming the de ck thickness is increased, you don't need much of a bung for 21 stud heads. I torque ALL my heads to 45 ft/lbs, over 3 heat cycles and have NEVER had a problem. This is like walking into a new car dealer and trying to buy an economy car with all the options, and the price goes out of sight. 90% of the buyers here will just wand a good running engine at a reasonable price. Course, a blown 340 ci Flathead would be nice.

[pooch]

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Originally Posted by Yoyodyne

I've pondered how to build a big bore engine with water pump heads. If Tod would sell a block with all the bosses in the right place but the head stud pattern drilled for 24 stud, or perhaps undrilled, you could drill the extra studs for 21 stud heads slightly offset away from the cylinders. I was poking around under the deck of a late block and wishing for some material to appear right there, that would have solved my block availability problem.
I think there's enough metal in the iron heads to relocate those holes by stepped sleeves. Aluminum 21 stud heads could maybe be ordered without those holes drilled. I wonder why Ford added studs instead of just relocating them, anyone here have sealing problems with 21 stud heads in that area?

We have a local guy here who makes new alloy 34 stlye heads with pump in head.

He has them cast and does all the machining himself.

I am sure he could change them a bit if needed.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I can't believe we're talking about boring this to 3 1/2", when no matter what we do with the ports we won't be able to feed it.

Well . . . that may be true given the current stock Ford block situation, but if Tod changes the intake ports and this enables us to improve the flow, then I can't help but think the ports can deliver more flow to the bore. Also, I'm a big fan of supercharged engines - where the blower makes up for some of the lack of flow in the ports. In the end, cubic inches always come into play - at least on the extreme ends of performance.

What I'm trying to say is that if Tod can design a block that handles everything from stock, to high performance, to extreme high performance . . . and not punish the low-end guys with added costs, then we have a "win-win" situation. Guys like me who want to push the limits (which is why I'd buy this block) are happy . . . and those who want a better than stock replacement are happy as well.

It is hard to walk the "fine line" between stock replacement and extreme performance - but I believe it is possible if the block has the necessary design and associated material thickness to allow guys like me to experiment.

Don't penalize the guys who want quality stock replacements (with unnecessary cost or complexity) - but open the door for the goofy bastards like me that push the performance boundaries.

Okay - that is enough of my babble!

B&S

[Henry Floored]

I think a 3 1/2” piston will help the engine breathe. The more of that combustion chamber that is “active” and the closer to the edge of the cylinder wall is to the intake valve the better it is.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

I think a 3 1/2” piston will help the engine breathe. The more of that combustion chamber that is “active” and the closer to the edge of the cylinder wall is to the intake valve the better it is.

Remember, air is not "drawn" or "pulled" into the cylinder, it is pushed in by atmospheric pressure (or boost pressure, if supercharged). This distinction must be kept in mind when visualizing air flow through a port. Air has mass (as does the fuel suspended in the air) so therefore has inertia and loses velocity as it makes all those turns through the intake tract and past the valve. So this is a bigger factor than the edge of a cylinder wall being a 1/16" or an 1/8" closer to the valve.

[Ol' Ron]

The shape of the combustion chamber, not only controls flow, but also the CR. I've found a transfer area at a 12 degree angle provider good flow. But decreases CR. also the exit of the transfer area also has an affect on flow. For street I use an 8 degree angle for the transfer area and a 60 deg exit. I like to use Offy head for shaping the chamber because they are thicker than the Edelbrock heads.. Some consider flow behind the valve,but i couldn't prove that. I mill the area over the valve at a 5 degree angle. this removes less material to keep the CR as high as possible. With .045" piston to head clearance I can get 8.5 CR in a 276 ci engine. The next best thing would be to remove the spark plug to the center of the transfer area. This will shorten the flame front. Less detonation with a low grad fuel. Now that we're getting a new block, we might want to take another look at Flat 32's heads.

[Tod]

Let's just relax as the tooling slowly moves along. I have more work than I've ever had and no help, so it will be longer than usual to get to the foundry to make the first one.


I don't mind reading discussions about the possibilities but don't expect imminent testing.


Tod