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Old 03-02-2018, 11:11 AM   #41
rotorwrench
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Default Re: 8BA tooling.

I agree that you are what you feel you are but guys with a passion for casting iron don't grow on trees. I think most of us can tell you really like what you are doing there.

Most of us watched in earnest while Motor City was experimenting and Flathead Jack's was showing core models on his site and that. We were all hoping someone would do it but each sort of fizzled out due to one cause or another. The hope is still there but perhaps some reality is coming. Don't be surprised about our praise. We are all flathead V8 fans here.
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Old 03-02-2018, 11:32 AM   #42
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Default Re: 8BA tooling.

[QUOTE=Tod;1599789]Let's not over-state things. I'm just an every day, ordinary guy. I just happen to do this for a living.


Tod, curious to know your background, how you learned your skills and what your company produces. Having all these high tech machining centers is a big capital outlay for sure. Not trying to be nosey but, I am intrigued by your ability as traditional tool and die makers seems to be on the decline. Thanks.
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Old 03-02-2018, 04:06 PM   #43
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Default Re: 8BA tooling.

[QUOTE=19Fordy;1600047]
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Let's not over-state things. I'm just an every day, ordinary guy. I just happen to do this for a living.


Tod, curious to know your background, how you learned your skills and what your company produces. Having all these high tech machining centers is a big capital outlay for sure. Not trying to be nosey but, I am intrigued by your ability as traditional tool and die makers seems to be on the decline. Thanks.

What a long, boring, story that would be.


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Old 03-02-2018, 05:05 PM   #44
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Default Re: 8BA tooling.

OK. I understand. But, I bet it's an interesting story.
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Old 03-02-2018, 05:21 PM   #45
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OK. I understand. But, I bet it's an interesting story.

Generally, not really. There are countless details over 40 years that might interest some people. I can sum up foundry tooling - if you can count to 2 you can do it. There are 2 kinds of "lines" used to make patterns, straight lines and curves. The blueprints even told us where to put them. So much for that. Then on to the simplest thing I've ever done in my life - machining with CNC equipment. The machines are binary, using zero's and 1's to communicate operations/movements. So, if you can count to 1, you can run a CNC machine. Yep, my whole life is reduced to making things that fly, run on tracks, bulldoze, and shoot projectiles in the military (tanks), make cars move and stop, move air, hold product in plastic packages, anchor Navy ships, keep mail moving, look nice on buildings (like the Trump Taj Mahal) and countless other things, and I only need to be able to count to 2. Not very impressive.


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Old 03-02-2018, 06:57 PM   #46
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Default Re: 8BA tooling.

Gee, I can count to 100 but you've got me beat. Please keep counting just like you do as flathead folks are depending on you.
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Old 03-03-2018, 02:30 PM   #47
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Default Re: 8BA tooling.

I'm interested, put me on the list
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Old 03-03-2018, 06:11 PM   #48
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Default Re: 8BA tooling.

Second try, Tod, exactly what machine work will need be done by the builder?
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Old 03-03-2018, 06:43 PM   #49
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Second try, Tod, exactly what machine work will need be done by the builder?

Sorry, got distracted.


Will need to finish cylinders to customer size, finish main and cam bores to size, hone lifter bores, and grind valve seats. Also, need valve guides installed. I may leave decks a little high like all my other blocks so they can be dialed in to the finished crank bores.


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Old 03-03-2018, 09:30 PM   #50
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Default Re: 8BA tooling.

I don't think,having any machine work other cylinder bore finishing. Will help sales line boring cam tunnels and lifter bores is not optional machine work and will reduce the value of the block. adding more $$$$ to the build. Should be a finished block!
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Old 03-04-2018, 06:33 AM   #51
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Default Re: 8BA tooling.

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I don't think,having any machine work other cylinder bore finishing. Will help sales line boring cam tunnels and lifter bores is not optional machine work and will reduce the value of the block. adding more $$$$ to the build. Should be a finished block!
Have to agree here 100%!!

Been following along here with some interest but what I see above here now with respect to the required "finish" machining will only leave a limited number of shops that even have the equipment to get all of that add'l machining done?? This is if I'm reading the requirements correctly!

Not too many shops in my area can do the lifter bore work (boring or honing) and even less can do the cam tunnel boring! I know most of the shops near me!

The deck heights and the cylinder finish honing (to size) isn't a problem for most?

Good luck, a very good friend of mine has traveled this road, making both iron and aluminum castings, SBC's, BBC's, Fords, Mopars, including blocks, heads, manifolds, etc., and just recently retired and sold out to very large vendor!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I'd like to see many shops just "hold" the center-to-center on the cam/crank dimension after a conventional line bore/hone, especially on a Flathead yet!!
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Old 03-04-2018, 11:31 AM   #52
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Default Re: 8BA tooling.

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Sorry, got distracted.


Will need to finish cylinders to customer size, finish main and cam bores to size, hone lifter bores, and grind valve seats. Also, need valve guides installed. I may leave decks a little high like all my other blocks so they can be dialed in to the finished crank bores.


Tod
Im thinking that combination is a prescription for failure. Your only audience with those after sale machine requirements is the very high end builder. We are not big block race motor customers. We are lowly flathead drivers. The list of interested customers just dropped 98%. Just got to lay it out Todd.
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Old 03-04-2018, 02:37 PM   #53
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Default Re: 8BA tooling.

I'm in.
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Old 03-05-2018, 01:14 PM   #54
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Default Re: 8BA tooling.

I too would be concerned about all the necessary machining. Maybe you could have several options for machining, from near nothing to everything but final cylinder honing. I would think that once you have the block in your CNC machine it would be relatively easy to do all the machine work. More profit for you, less expense and hassle for the end user. Out here in the hinterlands, it is easy to find shops that do a good job on cylinder bore and hone, and valve seats, but more difficult and time consuming to find a shop to line bore, and very hard to find one to do cam tunnels and lifter bores.
Are you set up to do custom work such as different deck heights and valve seat diameters, or are you more production oriented (every block the same)?
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Old 03-05-2018, 06:21 PM   #55
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Default Re: 8BA tooling.

Tod's silent on the latest. Hopefully he is assessing expense with a more build ready option.
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Old 03-06-2018, 12:46 AM   #56
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Default Re: 8BA tooling.

All this is doable, it just cost money, Having worked in the machine tool industry. I can say this is a major project. I just cut the first two cylinders off of a block to inspect the water passages, and hoe to fill them with plastic steel. Believe me when I say the cores for the casting is gona be a bitch to cast. This was one of the major problems Henry had in the beginning.
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Old 03-06-2018, 11:55 AM   #57
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Default Re: 8BA tooling.

The only thing that I can see there that is a bit off the wall is the final finishing of the cam bearing bores. Align boring/honing mains is not that big a deal and the cam bores are similar. Getting it all centered up is up to the machinist. The flathead engines take someone who is pretty sharp to insure everything is where it's supposed to be since they are geared cam drive. If the the tappet bores are relatively close in size then honing them shouldn't be a problem. Most of the machine shops here in SA are geared toward the standard OHV engines. There is likely only one shop here that is geared more toward flathead machine work but most have machines that can handle about any type of block. If a person wants hardened seats in the valve pockets then that would be a choice that would be optional but wouldn't break the bank. I still have a set of brand new standard size Mercury pistons that I'd like to use up without sleeving a whole block to do it. Like Ron says, it's just a matter of money. One guy might want something different than another guy so a person has to have a happy medium.
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Old 03-10-2018, 07:00 AM   #58
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Default Re: 8BA tooling.

The goal will be to provide as much machining as possible to produce production run blocks that have the least amount of finish machining to do. My pricing will need to reflect investment in tooling, additional set up, programming and time. If you want a block that is totally machined for every conceivable engine build so that all you have to do is throw parts at it and they fall into place, for under $2500, then you will have to buy one from the other people making these blocks.


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Old 03-10-2018, 08:19 AM   #59
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Default Re: 8BA tooling.

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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
The goal will be to provide as much machining as possible to produce production run blocks that have the least amount of finish machining to do. My pricing will need to reflect investment in tooling, additional set up, programming and time. If you want a block that is totally machined for every conceivable engine build so that all you have to do is throw parts at it and they fall into place, for under $2500, then you will have to buy one from the other people making these blocks.


Tod
Could you expand on the projected required machining necessary to have the valve seats (assuming inserts at least on the exhausts, intakes aren't really needed) ready to assemble??

Most all of the aftermarket blocks we use need only the deck hgts done and the bores finish-honed, all the other CNC'd dimensions when machined by the vendor's are "workable" for the most part. Obviously there's no valve seat work needed on conventional V-8 blocks??

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Just curious about the valve/seat area requirements basically on your "as-delivered" casting!!
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Old 03-10-2018, 09:43 AM   #60
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Default Re: 8BA tooling.

I'm thinking that my safest course of action would be to take one of my original unmolested 8BA blocks with me to the machine shop in case they need it to check machine settings. A lot of them don't have real modern machines. I would just want to be certain that they didn't ruin anything. My experiences with machine shops have been pretty good but I've heard a few horror stories. With an investment like that, a person should cover their bases as best they can. I have an old manual lathe and mill but have no machines to do all the work required on this type of project so I'd be at their mercy.
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