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Old 07-26-2017, 09:43 PM   #21
quickchange34
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Default Re: !935 Phaeton Temporary Dead Short +

Why don't you remove the wire going to the coil. You should have done that if you wanted to leave the switch on. Take the light switch apart at the bottom of the steering box. You could have the high beam wire rubbing on the case going to ground.
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:43 PM   #22
koates
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Default Re: !935 Phaeton Temporary Dead Short +

First of all I note you may not have an original 35 Ford foot operated starter switch but instead a solenoid starter switch which is operating only with the ignition switch turned "ON" or what ? and a push button starter switch on the dash. I think by removing the fuse during testing is confusing the issue for you and us as well, so leave it in place. Leave the fuse in which should be a 20 amp or 25 if you like. I would be obtaining an original 35 Ford wiring diagram and following closely the connections on each side of that fuseholder and ignition resistor to make sure they are all the correct way around on the terminals. Follow each wire ( colour) one at a time to make sure its destination is correct according to the diagram. There is a possibility that you have a short to ground in the high beam headlight circuit and if so it should have blown the fuse if in fact the headlights are powered through the fuse. What value fuse in amps did you have fitted in there ? If you are going to have the ignition switch turned on for more than 30 seconds with the engine not running then you need to disconnect the wire at the coil to save any overheating of the resistor, coil, points etc. All the wires only connect to one place ONLY and I suggest you follow them all through carefully to establish if they are correct. A high beam short to ground could be anywhere from the inside of the headlight switch all the way to either of the headlight bulb sockets. Do not set the generator third brush any higher than about 12 amps on the dash ammeter with the engine revs up quite a bit. This is a total generator output of around 15 amps allowing for 3 amps ignition draw on the dash ammeter. Any higher will cook the generator. For normal daytime running (No lights) I only set the brush to show about 5 amps on the dash ammeter otherwise any higher will overcharge and cook your optima battery. Regards, Kevin.
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Old 07-27-2017, 10:31 AM   #23
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Default Re: !935 Phaeton Temporary Dead Short +

Kevin, +
I do have a Ford foot operated starter switch; the fuse size is 20 amp. , and now understand the 30 second rule and I will trace the wiring as recommend..
Thanks,Jim

(but I can't help to wonder now if this whole issue of mine which took place during my two day experimenting with driving around and adjusting the 3rd brush for more current output .... that day 2 I talk about still has the generator putting out at 14+ amps while I am rotating the head lite switch... could this be overheating rather than a dead short...)
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Old 07-27-2017, 10:35 AM   #24
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Default Re: !935 Phaeton Temporary Dead Short +

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Originally Posted by jfcrash View Post
could this be overheating rather than a dead short...)
That would be my guess, a short doesn't normally reset it's self when it cools down. The problem is most likely in the battery or starter switch connection. Have you removed the cut-out switch yet?
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Old 07-27-2017, 06:59 PM   #25
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Default Re: !935 Phaeton Temporary Dead Short +

Are you saying that with the headlights ON and engine revved up that the ammeter is showing a 14 amp charge ? With engine NOT RUNNING and headlights ON does the ammeter show a 12 amp discharge approx ? If this is the case then the generator is charging around 26 amps which is about 10 amps above its SAFE OUTPUT RATING which would be a reason its getting HOT !! When answering these questions please be very specific. Re-read my post #22 regarding setting the generator third brush. You need to get this right. Regards, Kevin.
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Old 07-28-2017, 03:54 PM   #26
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Default Re: !935 Phaeton Temporary Dead Short +

You say that the car was running fine before you adjusted the third brush in the generator to give you more amps for night driving. It sounds to me that you have shorted out something in the generator, because, the car is starting and running until you turn the lights on. If you have a weakness in your battery and the genny is shorted out and NOT charging, then turning on the lights might just kill whatever charge is in the battery.
I would take the battery to a supplier and ask them to load test it for you. They can tell you if there is a weak cell or a problem with the battery. Then check whatever you did to the genny to make sure none of the wires are shorted and that all the brushes are contacting the armature.
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Old 07-28-2017, 08:05 PM   #27
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Default Re: !935 Phaeton Temporary Dead Short +

Kevin , your answer to post 25, I was driving and stopping and each time I was changing the position of the 3rd brush and taking notes of the current output at various positions of the 3rd brush for anticipated night time driving, my last mark was at 14+ amps at 30mph. I drove home from there and it stayed there(14+) till the next day when I started the car and during warn up and my rotating the head light switch did the car dye... and would not start till after a cool down. etc.
I have moved the third brush back to the original position of 4 to 5 amps where it has been for 3+years.
I have traced all wires from each side of the fuse holder and resistor to their destination per the 35 wiring diagram as suggested. Checked the wires inside the bulb at the base of the steering column and see no evidence of sparking/shorting.

I have not driven it again, but starts fine and does not short out or die when I rotate the lite switch on the steering wheel as many times as I did...
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Old 07-28-2017, 08:44 PM   #28
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Default Re: !935 Phaeton Temporary Dead Short +

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I have not driven it again, but starts fine and does not short out or die when I rotate the lite switch on the steering wheel as many times as I did...
This may just be semantics to you, but what you are describing is not a short, it is an open circuit (or very high resistance circuit). Most likely caused by the generator interacting with something (most likely the battery) at the higher output levels. I would still have the battery check because it should be capable of handling the higher amperage loads. When a circuit shorts out, it is similar to fireworks with a lot of heat and burnt wiring if the fuse doesn't blow. And the fuse is another hint, it there was a short in the lighting circuit it would blow. And even a blown fuse would have no effect on the car starting and/or running as the ignition circuit is totally separate from the fuse. When everything does dead and the starter will not turn the engine over there is an open circuit somewhere in the area of the battery and the starter switch. The fact that the horn will still operate indicates that it is not a total open circuit but probably very high resistance to the point that the starter will not operate. Only thing I can relate that to is the battery if the other connections have been eliminated.
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Old 07-28-2017, 09:00 PM   #29
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Default Re: !935 Phaeton Temporary Dead Short +

JSeery
I believe you are on to something. Test the battery with a carbon pile tester.
It may be when the battery is hot the case expands and exposes a bad connection.
Make sense?
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Old 07-28-2017, 09:33 PM   #30
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Default Re: !935 Phaeton Temporary Dead Short +

Listen to JSeery
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Old 07-29-2017, 06:25 AM   #31
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Default Re: !935 Phaeton Temporary Dead Short +

I will pull the optima battery and have it carbon pile tested as suggested and install my backup nos foot operated starter switch this coming week(s) ...

If it makes sense at this time, I can also pull the generator with its generator mounted cutout and have it bench tested under load ??

Thank you for your comments, Jim
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Old 07-29-2017, 06:45 AM   #32
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Default Re: !935 Phaeton Temporary Dead Short +

A mention of replacement of switches during restoration makes me wonder about the quality of the restoration parts. The original light and ignition switch parts as well as lamp sockets & starter switches/solenoids were all of very good quality materials back in the day. Some of the modern reproductions use inferior metals and plastics to what was OEM and can be problematic at times.

Ford started using circuit breakers to protect some stuff in later years with a few fuses for non essential stuff. The older cars don't have very good circuit protection but they are better than the model A cars that basically had no circuit protection at all.
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:02 AM   #33
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Default Re: !935 Phaeton Temporary Dead Short +

Follow up...
Battery passed the carbon pile test...so starting with the battery terminals and undoing/cleaning/checking all connections as pictured in the sketch in post 17 above...

The problem was located at the starter side terminal of the foot operated starter switch.. the locking hardware was discolored, I assume from overheating, and covered with a white substance.
I have replaced the starter switch with a NOS switch which appears to be working fine ...
I am assuming now that the starter switch itself has had some internal problem as for some time I have had to work the foot button to find the sweet spot to get the starter engaged... causing some internal heating??

Thank you all for your help and JS for being persistent..
Jim
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I couldn't repair the brakes, so I adjusted the horn louder....

Last edited by jfcrash; 08-11-2017 at 09:04 AM. Reason: missed a word
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