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Old 07-14-2014, 08:03 PM   #1
lecktrix
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Default Engine Stand... I dont see how

Hello all... Im new to the flathead world, and im about to start a rebuild. I know the issue has been discussed tons of times on here... but what should I do... I have seen the exhaust port stands and the front and rear stands. I have two 1948 V8's that I need to tear down. I have done tons of modern motors and I hang them from the bellhousing... I just noticed that part of the bellhousing is the oil pan..
Im definately not comfortable hanging this motor on the top of the bellhousing, and im definately not happy hanging my motor from the exhaust ports...

Am I crazy, or is it safe to suspend a complete motor from the exhaust ports??
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Old 07-14-2014, 08:10 PM   #2
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

I made a bracket for the exhaust mount and it worked fine for me on a couple different engines.
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Old 07-14-2014, 08:13 PM   #3
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

I felt the same way but it worked fine. I believe I bought my exhaust port mount from Red's headers. Everyone says absolutely not to use the bell housing as it could break, destroying your block.
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Old 07-14-2014, 08:17 PM   #4
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Here is the link to one I used bought off ebay and worked great. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Flathead-For...c73387&vxp=mtr
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Old 07-14-2014, 08:20 PM   #5
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Do not hang the motor by the bell houseing alone I have seen a flat motor that was destroyed doing that. It broke a third of the bell houseing away.
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Old 07-14-2014, 08:21 PM   #6
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

I find it easier to tear them apart on a sheet of plywood on the floor then build them up on a stand.

Lonnie
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Old 07-14-2014, 08:28 PM   #7
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

The KR Wilson engine stand used by all Ford Service Departments held the engine by the front and rear exhaust ports. That should allay any fear you have about hanging the complete engine by the exhaust ports.
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Old 07-14-2014, 08:32 PM   #8
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Yep, that is what I was going to say, if it was good enough for Ford, it should be good enough for us! And I can attest to the breaking of the bellhousings, my current block was broken by a previous owner.
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Old 07-14-2014, 08:42 PM   #9
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

I use the ones that mount on the exhaust ports. Very easy to use and strong as well.
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Old 07-14-2014, 09:02 PM   #10
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

I used a bellhousing mounted stand, but I supported the front of the engine with a piece of rope and my engine lifter. I definitely did not feel comfortable with just the stand on its own.
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Old 07-14-2014, 09:23 PM   #11
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Just getting ready to paint and assemble mine! 4 bolts attached to the top rear bell housing. Make sure all bolts are tight and use large washers. Did the same thing on my roadster with no problems.
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File Type: jpg Coleman Coupe Motor 001.jpg (59.4 KB, 210 views)
File Type: jpg Coleman Coupe Motor 003.jpg (54.8 KB, 219 views)
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Old 07-14-2014, 09:40 PM   #12
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Works great until it brakes. Lots of people get away with it, some don't.
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Old 07-14-2014, 09:55 PM   #13
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Get walt to show his. It is a plate that bolts to the 59a bell and then the plate is what the engine stand arms bolt to.A very sturdy way to set up an engine on a conventional stand. The chance of the bell breaking that way is all but eliminated.Just a plate would work as well oround 1/2" thick should do it.But then you need to fabricate a new stub end to fit your stand.Walt's way is way simpler to fab up.

R
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Old 07-15-2014, 01:49 AM   #14
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

STUMPY'S makes an engine stand that bolts to the exhaust ports!!!
stumpysfabworks@hotmail.com


NOTE: The engine stand listed above from ebay is a STUMPYS stand.

"Here is the link to one I used bought off ebay and worked great. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Flathead-For...c73387&vxp=mtr
"

http://stumpysfabworks.weebly.com/st..._Products.html

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Old 07-15-2014, 02:41 AM   #15
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

I decided and started keeping my eye out for a block a couple months ago.

The very next early block I find thatís un usable is going to prove this entire debate true or faults.

Iím betting the stand bends when I lower the loader bucket on it.
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Old 07-15-2014, 03:02 AM   #16
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Think about this Question this way ~~ Of all the Bellhousings that have been broke ask how many were mounted on the engine stand by way of the exaust ports, I think that # may be ZERO

My example is Hanging the engine off the bellhousing is like having Sex with out protection you may get away with it many / many times BUT Sooner or later you will get caught & pay the big price !!!
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Old 07-15-2014, 09:25 AM   #17
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

I made an exhaust port mount that used all six bolts, but it only fits one side. I have used it on the other side a couple of times with just 4 bolts, but prefer to use the 6 when I can. All the evidence shows that just 4 bolts are adequate.

I never use the bellhousing bolts, too many reports of breakages for my liking. No reports of any problem using the FORD APPROVED method of attaching to the exhaust ports.
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Old 07-15-2014, 09:37 AM   #18
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Lots of reports but no pictures.Some forums say "no" pictures is it "didn't" happen.Lets see how many pictures are out there.

R
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Old 07-15-2014, 09:57 AM   #19
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

I have seen a lot of photos posted on this subject and have posted some myself. But I guess the real issue is there is not an engine stand police that I am aware of, so mount the engine anyway you want. There are ample stories on the Barn and elsewhere of people doing this for years and getting away with it. I would think even a quick look at the thickness of the material in the bellhousing area of a 59a block would lead you to see this is probably not a good idea. But again, it is your block do what you want with it, and I'll bet that you will get away with it just fine. My block was broken this way and I'm not taken any chances in the future, but that is just me.
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Old 07-15-2014, 10:08 AM   #20
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

I bought an adapter from Stumpys for my 99t but I sold the motor and only have 8ba's so I no longer need the adapter. PM me if you are interested.
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Old 07-15-2014, 10:21 AM   #21
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Thanks Guys!! I guess ill build a couple of the exhaust mounts. Great responses!!
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Old 07-15-2014, 10:22 AM   #22
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

These are a little hard to see because they did a good job on the repair. And just for the hell of it I uploaded some photos of the engine mount I fab'ed. (as a note, I'm not the one who broke the bellhousing in the first place!).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Bellhouseing Crack.jpg (62.6 KB, 121 views)
File Type: jpg Bellhouseing Crack 2.jpg (56.0 KB, 117 views)
File Type: jpg Bellhouseing Crack 3.jpg (46.9 KB, 106 views)
File Type: jpg engine mount.jpg (67.8 KB, 119 views)
File Type: jpg engine mount 3.jpg (63.2 KB, 123 views)
File Type: jpg engine mount 2.jpg (62.7 KB, 110 views)
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Old 07-15-2014, 10:53 AM   #23
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

I don't think the block was ever intended to "hang" from the 59 type cast bell housing. In its in-car position, the engine is supported by mounts at the front of the engine and at the rear of the transmission. The assembly would want to sag at the joining point of the two. This would put tension on the lower portion of the transmission mounting point and pressure on the upper, cast, bell. Hanging it from the bell on an engine stand places the reverse forces on it. The engine stand tries to hold it with fewer bolts unless an adapter is made such as Walt uses.

The 8BA engine doesn't have an attachment point below the block (except for the truck bell and oil pan connection) and is designed to support from the upper bolts. But there are six bolts holding the bell housing instead of the four on an engine stand.
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Old 07-15-2014, 12:42 PM   #24
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

I have a complete 59 on a stand now, and if I were to work on one I'd find and old oil pan and use the end only about 6".
I will most likely use the kitchen table as I did when I was a kid. LOL
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Old 07-15-2014, 12:43 PM   #25
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Ok you guys win! I am on my way to the garage to rehang the motor!
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Old 07-15-2014, 01:05 PM   #26
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

I have an ancient engine stand that has exhaust port mounts ON BOTH SIDES. It's supported on both sides of the block and spins freely with the clamp loosened. Granted you would need to lay the thing on the ground to port the exhaust, or paint the block, but those would be the only times it would need to come off this stand. Well supported for any work you may have to do.
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Old 07-15-2014, 04:44 PM   #27
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

I built an exhaust mount that uses all 6 holes. You need to "cross drill" the center holes so the thing will work on both sides. Really wasn't that hard!
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:17 AM   #28
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

I've had my '37 21 stud engine on a stand hung by the bellhousing, albeit NOT the original Ford bolts.. but some far longer, thicker bolts that came with the stand itself.. for about 2 years and had no problems at all. It did sag the stand a little though.

I did only a fortnight ago ended up tacking a piece of RHS (square hollow tubing) to the bottom of the stand, with a piece of flat plate maybe 2" x 3" tacked on top that sat underneath against the sump pan for a support. I did feel more comfortable with it like this.

It'll all change when the engine gets torn apart though.. but for now it does the job.

I think if you have good quality grade bolts holding the bellhousing, and a solid support at the front to stop it sagging the stand i'd say it'd be fine.
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:33 AM   #29
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

How can you put a support at the front and still spin the motor over? You'd have to make a pretty sophisticated bracket with a pivot on the exact same axis as the engine stand pivot at the rear.

Far easier to fab up an exhaust mount and stop worrying about it.

I suppose the problem is that a universal engine stand with the 4 moveable brackets will bolt up to most bellhousings without a problem, and will bolt to a 59a type bellhousing too. It takes some adaption or fab work to bolt to the exhaust mounts.

I'd rather do the fab work needed than be lazy and risk something breaking.

Mart.
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:53 AM   #30
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

The bolts are not what breaks, it's the cast metal in the bellhousing. There are hundreds of people who post about how they have "hung flatheads from the bellhousing for years and never broken one". That's good and I wish them the best of luck and hope they continue to have success with it. I'm an engineer and I wouldn't do it if I had never heard of one breaking. Even a quick look at the thickness of the casting in the area where the bolts mount tells me this is not a good idea. I would guess that because so many get away with it the damage only occurs when something out of the ordinary occurs, such as a block with a flaw in it, or uneven pressure at the bolt locations, etc. I am not about to say every early style block hung from the bellhousing is going to break, that would be silly and false. I am not going to say that even some of them with break, it goes not appear to happen often. But I will say that it has occurred and I am not about to have one of my blocks be the next! Ford and all of the early rebuilders would not have been using the different types of side mounts for the hell of it. Ford engineering knew it was not a good idea and I know it's not a good idea, so why do it? But if you must attempt to prove it can be done, I'm sure it will work out fine 99% time. It's just the engineer in me I guess that says just because I can get away with something most of the time doesn't make it a good idea.
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:03 AM   #31
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Quote:
Originally Posted by 40cpe View Post
I don't think the block was ever intended to "hang" from the 59 type cast bell housing. In its in-car position, the engine is supported by mounts at the front of the engine and at the rear of the transmission. The assembly would want to sag at the joining point of the two. This would put tension on the lower portion of the transmission mounting point and pressure on the upper, cast, bell. Hanging it from the bell on an engine stand places the reverse forces on it. The engine stand tries to hold it with fewer bolts unless an adapter is made such as Walt uses.

The 8BA engine doesn't have an attachment point below the block (except for the truck bell and oil pan connection) and is designed to support from the upper bolts. But there are six bolts holding the bell housing instead of the four on an engine stand.

Also, the oil pan helps to support the rear of the engine when it is in a car.

With good blocks getting so hard to find, why tempt fate with it? Doesn't make much sense to me.
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:19 AM   #32
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Testing a few more engine stands.

R
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:27 AM   #33
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

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Testing a few more engine stands.

R
Just proved my point! There are hundreds of folks that will show you a 59a on a conventional engine stand to prove it can be done. And yep it can be done, and has been done and will continue to be done, and very rarely is there any problem. So, does that make it a good idea? Not to me, but apparently to a lot of other people yes.
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:26 AM   #34
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Much of the problem is also the quality of the engine stand. Using a poorly designed $99.00 Horror Freight engine stand,as well as many others.All this only complicates the stress on the engine contact points. Some of the members should take their engine stands and see how much difference there is in being flush when tightened up not on an engine and then setting the head on a steel plate and you would be surprised how out of whack there cheap engine stands really are.You won't find any 99.00 stands used in a quality machine shop.Fabricate a 1/2" steel plate that has the bolt pattern drilled to match the bolt pattern and throw away the original cheap arms.This provides much more surface area for contact.

R

Last edited by Ronnie; 07-25-2014 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:37 AM   #35
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
Much of the problem is also the quality of the engine stand. Using a poorly designed $99.00 Horror Freight engine stand,as well as many others.All this only complicates the stress on the engine contact points. Some of the members should take their engine stands and see how mush difference there is in being flush when tightened up not on an engine and then setting the head on a steel plate and you would be surprised how out of whack there cheap engine stands really are.You won't find any 99.00 stands used in a quality machine shop.Fabricate a 1/2" steel plate that has the bolt pattern drilled to match the bolt pattern and throw away the original cheap arms.This provides much more surface area for contact.

R
I agree a plate would distribute the load and help a lot! I happen to like the side mounts, but there are other ways to go about it that's for sure.
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:57 AM   #36
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

All we want to do is prevent some of the sad endings that could be eliminated by using a more stable system to get the job done.Most have been brought to the attention of the members.It is now up to them.The plate would probably be beyond the skill level of a lot of members. To have it fabricated up would be an added cost.

R
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Old 07-25-2014, 01:50 PM   #37
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

V12 hung from side with 4 bolts.KRW stand
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Old 07-25-2014, 02:54 PM   #38
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
These are a little hard to see because they did a good job on the repair. And just for the hell of it I uploaded some photos of the engine mount I fab'ed. (as a note, I'm not the one who broke the bellhousing in the first place!).
Well, I guess this blows away the "old wives tale" theory, or "I have never seen one before" mentality. I didn't really need to see one of these to heed the warnings of others saying not to do this. Why take the risk? Remember....Murphys Law is always at work.
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Old 07-25-2014, 03:41 PM   #39
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

JSeery's pics show how a good hefty piece of angle sets up a perfect 45 degrees - ideal for the exhaust mount bracket. I did something similar myself, just welded up from angle scrap.

Mart.
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Old 07-25-2014, 05:01 PM   #40
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

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I felt the same way but it worked fine. I believe I bought my exhaust port mount from Red's headers. Everyone says absolutely not to use the bell housing as it could break, destroying your block.


Correction: I bought my mount from Stumpy's not Red's Headers. If I hadn't read another's post I would have never remembered 'Stumpy's'.(CRS)!
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Old 07-25-2014, 05:18 PM   #41
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
Much of the problem is also the quality of the engine stand. Using a poorly designed $99.00 Horror Freight engine stand,as well as many others.All this only complicates the stress on the engine contact points. Some of the members should take their engine stands and see how much difference there is in being flush when tightened up not on an engine and then setting the head on a steel plate and you would be surprised how out of whack there cheap engine stands really are.You won't find any 99.00 stands used in a quality machine shop.Fabricate a 1/2" steel plate that has the bolt pattern drilled to match the bolt pattern and throw away the original cheap arms.This provides much more surface area for contact.
The issue stems from the stress concentrations that are put on the bellhousing at the (4) fastener locations. That will be the same regardless of whether it's a $99 HF stand or a $999 NASCAR engine builder certified stand. The slop that's present in the pivot mechanism on the cheap stand is irrelevant.

Utilizing a plate that spans the entire bellhousing face and fastens to all of the bolt holes will help to reduce the stress at head fastener by spreading across a larger number (area). That's the route to go, regardless of the quality of the actual stand, when bolting from the bellhousing.
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:55 PM   #42
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

The problem is multiplied when the stand head has poor quality control and lacks good assembly tolerances.If you read my post carefully I state " this only complicates the stress on the engine contact points". That is all I said.Nothing about slop in mechanisim.
I am referring to all arms being the same dimensions and tolerances. which is not the case in many cheap stands.I have no problems with your statement about stress concentrations when all other tolerances are adhered to.

R
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:45 PM   #43
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

We'll I agree a 59 motor may hang static indefinitely on the bellhousing, but you can't tell me you'd feel comfortable bouncing 8BA valves out of it during a tear down or knocking out stuck pistons.

Lonnie
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:54 PM   #44
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Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

A good friend of mine has a `48-`50 F-1 he bought for a song. It was to be a father-son project. They had hung the engine on an engine stand and it broke the bell housing. My friend put a 302 in it and uses it for a beater.
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:38 PM   #45
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Location: Canada Where it snows
Posts: 1,992
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

A 48 f150 has an 8ba in it

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