Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-15-2014, 10:21 AM   #21
lecktrix
Member
 
lecktrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Independence, Ca
Posts: 43
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Thanks Guys!! I guess ill build a couple of the exhaust mounts. Great responses!!
lecktrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2014, 10:22 AM   #22
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 14,780
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

These are a little hard to see because they did a good job on the repair. And just for the hell of it I uploaded some photos of the engine mount I fab'ed. (as a note, I'm not the one who broke the bellhousing in the first place!).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Bellhouseing Crack.jpg (62.6 KB, 121 views)
File Type: jpg Bellhouseing Crack 2.jpg (56.0 KB, 117 views)
File Type: jpg Bellhouseing Crack 3.jpg (46.9 KB, 106 views)
File Type: jpg engine mount.jpg (67.8 KB, 119 views)
File Type: jpg engine mount 3.jpg (63.2 KB, 123 views)
File Type: jpg engine mount 2.jpg (62.7 KB, 110 views)
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 07-15-2014, 10:53 AM   #23
40cpe
Senior Member
 
40cpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Star, MS
Posts: 3,588
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

I don't think the block was ever intended to "hang" from the 59 type cast bell housing. In its in-car position, the engine is supported by mounts at the front of the engine and at the rear of the transmission. The assembly would want to sag at the joining point of the two. This would put tension on the lower portion of the transmission mounting point and pressure on the upper, cast, bell. Hanging it from the bell on an engine stand places the reverse forces on it. The engine stand tries to hold it with fewer bolts unless an adapter is made such as Walt uses.

The 8BA engine doesn't have an attachment point below the block (except for the truck bell and oil pan connection) and is designed to support from the upper bolts. But there are six bolts holding the bell housing instead of the four on an engine stand.
40cpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2014, 12:42 PM   #24
George/Maine
Senior Member
 
George/Maine's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mid coast Maine
Posts: 1,878
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

I have a complete 59 on a stand now, and if I were to work on one I'd find and old oil pan and use the end only about 6".
I will most likely use the kitchen table as I did when I was a kid. LOL
George/Maine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2014, 12:43 PM   #25
ct1932ford
Senior Member
 
ct1932ford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: CT.
Posts: 520
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Ok you guys win! I am on my way to the garage to rehang the motor!
__________________
A man should do what he thinks best! "The Duke"
ct1932ford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2014, 01:05 PM   #26
alchemy
Senior Member
 
alchemy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: middle of Iowa
Posts: 387
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

I have an ancient engine stand that has exhaust port mounts ON BOTH SIDES. It's supported on both sides of the block and spins freely with the clamp loosened. Granted you would need to lay the thing on the ground to port the exhaust, or paint the block, but those would be the only times it would need to come off this stand. Well supported for any work you may have to do.
alchemy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2014, 04:44 PM   #27
El Rat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 260
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

I built an exhaust mount that uses all 6 holes. You need to "cross drill" the center holes so the thing will work on both sides. Really wasn't that hard!
El Rat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2014, 08:17 AM   #28
28A
Member
 
28A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 44
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

I've had my '37 21 stud engine on a stand hung by the bellhousing, albeit NOT the original Ford bolts.. but some far longer, thicker bolts that came with the stand itself.. for about 2 years and had no problems at all. It did sag the stand a little though.

I did only a fortnight ago ended up tacking a piece of RHS (square hollow tubing) to the bottom of the stand, with a piece of flat plate maybe 2" x 3" tacked on top that sat underneath against the sump pan for a support. I did feel more comfortable with it like this.

It'll all change when the engine gets torn apart though.. but for now it does the job.

I think if you have good quality grade bolts holding the bellhousing, and a solid support at the front to stop it sagging the stand i'd say it'd be fine.
28A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2014, 08:33 AM   #29
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 6,661
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

How can you put a support at the front and still spin the motor over? You'd have to make a pretty sophisticated bracket with a pivot on the exact same axis as the engine stand pivot at the rear.

Far easier to fab up an exhaust mount and stop worrying about it.

I suppose the problem is that a universal engine stand with the 4 moveable brackets will bolt up to most bellhousings without a problem, and will bolt to a 59a type bellhousing too. It takes some adaption or fab work to bolt to the exhaust mounts.

I'd rather do the fab work needed than be lazy and risk something breaking.

Mart.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2014, 08:53 AM   #30
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 14,780
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

The bolts are not what breaks, it's the cast metal in the bellhousing. There are hundreds of people who post about how they have "hung flatheads from the bellhousing for years and never broken one". That's good and I wish them the best of luck and hope they continue to have success with it. I'm an engineer and I wouldn't do it if I had never heard of one breaking. Even a quick look at the thickness of the casting in the area where the bolts mount tells me this is not a good idea. I would guess that because so many get away with it the damage only occurs when something out of the ordinary occurs, such as a block with a flaw in it, or uneven pressure at the bolt locations, etc. I am not about to say every early style block hung from the bellhousing is going to break, that would be silly and false. I am not going to say that even some of them with break, it goes not appear to happen often. But I will say that it has occurred and I am not about to have one of my blocks be the next! Ford and all of the early rebuilders would not have been using the different types of side mounts for the hell of it. Ford engineering knew it was not a good idea and I know it's not a good idea, so why do it? But if you must attempt to prove it can be done, I'm sure it will work out fine 99% time. It's just the engineer in me I guess that says just because I can get away with something most of the time doesn't make it a good idea.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2014, 09:03 AM   #31
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 3,772
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Quote:
Originally Posted by 40cpe View Post
I don't think the block was ever intended to "hang" from the 59 type cast bell housing. In its in-car position, the engine is supported by mounts at the front of the engine and at the rear of the transmission. The assembly would want to sag at the joining point of the two. This would put tension on the lower portion of the transmission mounting point and pressure on the upper, cast, bell. Hanging it from the bell on an engine stand places the reverse forces on it. The engine stand tries to hold it with fewer bolts unless an adapter is made such as Walt uses.

The 8BA engine doesn't have an attachment point below the block (except for the truck bell and oil pan connection) and is designed to support from the upper bolts. But there are six bolts holding the bell housing instead of the four on an engine stand.

Also, the oil pan helps to support the rear of the engine when it is in a car.

With good blocks getting so hard to find, why tempt fate with it? Doesn't make much sense to me.
Tim Ayers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2014, 09:19 AM   #32
Ronnie
Senior Member
 
Ronnie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Canada Where it snows
Posts: 1,992
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Testing a few more engine stands.

R
Attached Images
File Type: jpg v8's.jpg (113.5 KB, 115 views)
Ronnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2014, 09:27 AM   #33
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 14,780
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
Testing a few more engine stands.

R
Just proved my point! There are hundreds of folks that will show you a 59a on a conventional engine stand to prove it can be done. And yep it can be done, and has been done and will continue to be done, and very rarely is there any problem. So, does that make it a good idea? Not to me, but apparently to a lot of other people yes.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2014, 10:26 AM   #34
Ronnie
Senior Member
 
Ronnie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Canada Where it snows
Posts: 1,992
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Much of the problem is also the quality of the engine stand. Using a poorly designed $99.00 Horror Freight engine stand,as well as many others.All this only complicates the stress on the engine contact points. Some of the members should take their engine stands and see how much difference there is in being flush when tightened up not on an engine and then setting the head on a steel plate and you would be surprised how out of whack there cheap engine stands really are.You won't find any 99.00 stands used in a quality machine shop.Fabricate a 1/2" steel plate that has the bolt pattern drilled to match the bolt pattern and throw away the original cheap arms.This provides much more surface area for contact.

R

Last edited by Ronnie; 07-25-2014 at 10:50 AM.
Ronnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2014, 10:37 AM   #35
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 14,780
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
Much of the problem is also the quality of the engine stand. Using a poorly designed $99.00 Horror Freight engine stand,as well as many others.All this only complicates the stress on the engine contact points. Some of the members should take their engine stands and see how mush difference there is in being flush when tightened up not on an engine and then setting the head on a steel plate and you would be surprised how out of whack there cheap engine stands really are.You won't find any 99.00 stands used in a quality machine shop.Fabricate a 1/2" steel plate that has the bolt pattern drilled to match the bolt pattern and throw away the original cheap arms.This provides much more surface area for contact.

R
I agree a plate would distribute the load and help a lot! I happen to like the side mounts, but there are other ways to go about it that's for sure.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2014, 10:57 AM   #36
Ronnie
Senior Member
 
Ronnie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Canada Where it snows
Posts: 1,992
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

All we want to do is prevent some of the sad endings that could be eliminated by using a more stable system to get the job done.Most have been brought to the attention of the members.It is now up to them.The plate would probably be beyond the skill level of a lot of members. To have it fabricated up would be an added cost.

R
Ronnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2014, 01:50 PM   #37
Ken/Alabama
Senior Member
 
Ken/Alabama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 2,349
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

V12 hung from side with 4 bolts.KRW stand
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image.jpg (45.9 KB, 60 views)
Ken/Alabama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2014, 02:54 PM   #38
JM 35 Sedan
Senior Member
 
JM 35 Sedan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland
Posts: 10,126
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
These are a little hard to see because they did a good job on the repair. And just for the hell of it I uploaded some photos of the engine mount I fab'ed. (as a note, I'm not the one who broke the bellhousing in the first place!).
Well, I guess this blows away the "old wives tale" theory, or "I have never seen one before" mentality. I didn't really need to see one of these to heed the warnings of others saying not to do this. Why take the risk? Remember....Murphys Law is always at work.
__________________
John

"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein

Last edited by JM 35 Sedan; 07-25-2014 at 06:19 PM.
JM 35 Sedan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2014, 03:41 PM   #39
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 6,661
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

JSeery's pics show how a good hefty piece of angle sets up a perfect 45 degrees - ideal for the exhaust mount bracket. I did something similar myself, just welded up from angle scrap.

Mart.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2014, 05:01 PM   #40
Shadetree
Senior Member
 
Shadetree's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Cottageville, WV
Posts: 1,535
Default Re: Engine Stand... I dont see how

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadetree View Post
I felt the same way but it worked fine. I believe I bought my exhaust port mount from Red's headers. Everyone says absolutely not to use the bell housing as it could break, destroying your block.


Correction: I bought my mount from Stumpy's not Red's Headers. If I hadn't read another's post I would have never remembered 'Stumpy's'.(CRS)!
__________________
Son, you will never blow an engine up in high gear.
Shadetree is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:04 PM.