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Old 05-05-2012, 01:13 AM   #121
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Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

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Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida View Post
One simple answer would be to allow the fan to be displayed much like the tools are.
Why do folks that will never show a car worry about a solution to a problem that ISN'T a problem for those that do show a car? Ok, I'll try to translate that. I don't know a single person that is truly trying to replicate a factory produced vehicle that could care less about the concerns shared on this forum. However many folks here that will never do so seem to think it's a problem. Is that crazy or what?
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Old 05-05-2012, 04:06 AM   #122
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Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

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Why do folks that will never show a car worry about a solution to a problem that ISN'T a problem for those that do show a car? Ok, I'll try to translate that. I don't know a single person that is truly trying to replicate a factory produced vehicle that could care less about the concerns shared on this forum. However many folks here that will never do so seem to think it's a problem. Is that crazy or what?
Of course not, they have money. If something happens they will just fix it. My son is trying to truly replicate a factory produced vehicle and every dime he and I can scrape together is going into the car. He is still in high school with asperations to go to college and I'm still trying to recover from years of no pay check and a failed business working the overnight shift and finding ocassional daytime work. There is no way on Gods green earth that an original fan will be placed on the car with the engine running. If it were to break (like mine did) it would me the end of the car. We would not be able to afford to replace/repair another radiator, shroud, and hood.
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Old 05-05-2012, 09:23 AM   #123
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Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

This is my 2 cents … First off I am very new to this all and know very little if not jack about my Model A. However I have had a fan break off and cause more issues and money then what ever the price of this new Fan you are talking about, and I escaped my radiator from being destroyed, that would have added more then quadruple the cost of your new product. On the other side after ordering my parts and being told they was of quality and made in America I was let down, and wont be using that very reputable company no more. So if you say you know someone, or can make such a small product more efficient and safe, and can guarantee it 99% as I don’t believe in 100% as something can always go wrong, I say make it and people will buy it.

If that fan inquestion would cost $200.00 that still would have been cheaper then the cost of what I am going to pay for the fix up. This one four blade fan took out the generator, dented the hood and made a big chip in the paint, cracked the water pump in half and again I luck out by it not hitting the radiator. You all know the price of each product I listed. So to sum this up I would buy this one little fan at a premium price (but lets not over do it).


I am one who would want to see an after market look so authentic as so that even the most knowledgeable Model A enthusiast would have to look twice. And how hard can that be to match the original? If you already started production on a after market you are 80% there detail is everything and is very easy to accomplish. Besides as I have come to know the Model A was made by the millions, so the hard part is already done, (you don’t have to recreate the part from scratch) one would just have to care about his name on the product and that to me is a lost art. Just think this site would not be here if Mr. Ford himself did not care about Detail and Quality and something that last for over 80 years. (Built Ford Tough).

And besides Brent, just looking at what you produce would make me a buyer of that fan, I seen your website, and you took the time to break a few things down too me.


I posted my fan blade mishap with pics if anyone wants to see what I was talking about, just look under my name.

Last edited by mjm1972; 05-05-2012 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 05-05-2012, 10:36 AM   #124
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Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

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Of course not, they have money. If something happens they will just fix it. My son is trying to truly replicate a factory produced vehicle and every dime he and I can scrape together is going into the car. He is still in high school with asperations to go to college and I'm still trying to recover from years of no pay check and a failed business working the overnight shift and finding ocassional daytime work. There is no way on Gods green earth that an original fan will be placed on the car with the engine running. If it were to break (like mine did) it would me the end of the car. We would not be able to afford to replace/repair another radiator, shroud, and hood.
Folks just love to make assumptions that suit them. From the time I purchased my Roadster (in pieces) to the time I completed the restoration my average annual spending was a whopping $625. Yep, I'm a wealthy fella just like many of my buddies that have shown their cars.

Not putting an original fan on your car is your choice and no big deal. You can still strive for 499 points out of 500.
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Old 05-05-2012, 10:50 AM   #125
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Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

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First, although I'm not intimately familiar (I don't work on them) I've seen the rebuilding of jet engine components from the very first Messerschmitt Me 262 (Which I believe three still exist) to modern military stuff so I'm not unfamiliar with what you are suggesting. However you are expressing a wide spread misconception. For some silly reason folks seem to assume cars weren't actually driven in "the olden days" as if they were horse and buggies. That misconception is pure BS. When I was a kid it was a real find to come across a Model A with less than 100k miles on it. My first was a '29 Roadster which was fun speculating whether the mileage was 180k or 280k. It was tired. Now granted that was "modern times", but I did a little work on it and drove it 48k miles in the next six years.

Do not down play or underestimate how much these cars were really used.
but isn't the issue more that the cars have some finite life span before certain components start to wear out and some of those components might thereupon constitute a safety hazard? You have commented many times how the frames sag but I'm not aware that anyone gets injured by a sagging frame.....unless your roadster door doesn't close well and flies open accordingly LOL.
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Old 05-05-2012, 11:00 AM   #126
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Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

What i find even more interesting is that "Touring Class" Cars MUST MUST MUST have an ORIGINAL 2 blade fan to get the points.. when i approached one of the members of the committee and asked why would you insist on a 2 blade original for cars driven daily...he replied " OH THATS BULL SH@*%T they are perfectly safe to drive with on a daily basis that is why we want them on their" Opps okay there you have it!
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Old 05-05-2012, 01:34 PM   #127
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Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

why shouldn't the judging standards change?? They allow many repro parts as it is... fenders, radiators, upholstery, etc etc,,,,,,,,, get the stick in the mudders to move....besides this is a safety issue... also an original fan can end up costing more than a repro in the end after it tears up everything, as radiator, hood ,paint, etc....
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Old 05-05-2012, 01:43 PM   #128
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Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

The TOURING Class is a whole different ball game and why they INSIST is my point on an original 2 blade...seems a bit absurd to me
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Old 05-05-2012, 02:17 PM   #129
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Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

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why shouldn't the judging standards change?? They allow many repro parts as it is... fenders, radiators, upholstery, etc etc,,,,,,,,, get the stick in the mudders to move....besides this is a safety issue... also an original fan can end up costing more than a repro in the end after it tears up everything, as radiator, hood ,paint, etc....
There are no exceptions for fenders, radiators or upholstery in the judging standards.

Reproduction fans are allowed in fine point judging today.

The standard is, and has been, that a part will receive full credit it if is indistinguishable from an original.
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Old 05-05-2012, 02:27 PM   #130
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Old 05-05-2012, 02:27 PM   #131
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Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

This thread was started as a result of my losing a original fan blade, taking out the radiator and damaging the hood. I have used original fans since 1962 and had never had a problem. As stated by Joe Way, the fan had been magnifluxed and no cracks were detected. However, the inside of the fan cannot be seen to determine if moisture has started the rusting process on the inside.

Attached are two photos of the fan in question. We all know that the fan blades are hollow but also the area around the hub is hollow. The pulley is electrical welded to the hub, the fan blades are electrical welded in only two places to the hub at the bottom next to the pulley,moisture can enter the inside from the un-welded area; these welds did not fatigue, the metal around the welds let go, it appears the crack started at the point where the castle nut seats and progressed down from that point.

There is also another type of original two blade fan that has the pulley soldered to the hub rather than electrical welded. This was determined when I had two original fans that I took for powder coating. The one in question was powdercoated, the other one could not be powdercoated as the oven heat that cures the powdercoating would have melted the solder and come out in two pieces.

I personal recommend that Aers consider not running the original 2 blade fan as only the Lord knows when they will give up ???? I have a original two blade fan on my A1276, but only had to complete the manditory tour, slow driving, at the National Meet in San Diego. If I start doing more driving with this A I will change the fan.

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Old 05-05-2012, 03:03 PM   #132
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Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

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why shouldn't the judging standards change?? they allow many repro parts as it is... Fenders, radiators, upholstery, etc etc,,,,,,,,, get the stick in the mudders to move....besides this is a safety issue... Also an original fan can end up costing more than a repro in the end after it tears up everything, as radiator, hood ,paint, etc....

? ? ?
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Old 05-05-2012, 05:37 PM   #133
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Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

Btt
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Old 05-05-2012, 05:55 PM   #134
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Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

RON, Why BTT ?? How many times can you kill a dead horse ?? Nobody says you have to have an original fan to be in fine point.. Run what you brung !!.. In the First World meet in 1986 I had White Wall tires on my car & still got a Mark of Excellence award.. Its your car, put on it what you want !!..
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Old 05-05-2012, 06:35 PM   #135
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Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

OK OK OK, MOST of us get it!
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File Type: jpg beat_dead_horse2.jpg (22.0 KB, 10 views)
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Old 05-05-2012, 07:50 PM   #136
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Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

Fred,

It is not for people like you, I thought some of the younger people might want to know about the interior of the fan, and why it may look good but be a time bomb waiting to happen.

I was not bragging about being in fine point judging, read the post and why I mentioned the fact I would change the fan if going to drive the A very nuch. Tou are the oine that talked about MARC of Excellent, I did not mention it.

Thanks, Ron
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Old 05-05-2012, 10:14 PM   #137
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Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

It is threads like this that are educational not only to the Model A'er who has been in the hobby a few years but to also the young neophytes out there that need to know of these issues that may present a safety hazzard later down the road.

Thank you Mr. Rude for your knowledge and sharing an experience for which I do not ever want to experience myself.

There will come a day, and I hope it will not be in the near future, when one of these fan blades will come off at the wrong time. I just hope none of us here or anywhere else as that goes is not on the other end of the "flight" if you know what I mean.

However the first time it happens...I garuntee you that the Standards will change.

Pluck
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Old 05-06-2012, 04:25 PM   #138
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Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

I enjoy these kinds of discussions as they tend to bring out points that some folks may not have ever considered. If someone picks up a safety tip out of it and an injury or serious car damage is avoided, it's all worth it.

Marco, I have always appreciated your inputs here and have learned and applied a lot from them - and look forward to many more of your expert contributions. But I will stand by my own "technical" observations about the original fan because I've personally been affected by these failures and have made an effort to learn as much as possible about the fan's design, construction, failure modes and causes. I certainly don't know all there is to know and, as with other things about the good old Model A, there are honest, thoughtful differences of opinion on the subject - as we see very often here.

If you're inclined to be one to defend the original fan and its continued use today, for whatever reasons, that's your choice. But the history of failures and the expense they've caused folks who've used them should be known by both the informed and the nubie-uninformed so they can make their own decision. I don't think that someone who voices that position should be accused of "spreading misinformation and B.S." We here can easily stick to the issues without denigrating the other person.

Yes, out of five million Model A's produced, it is a statistical reality that some were driven "100's of thousands of miles" with no fan troubles. That kind of statistical scatter of failure data is true of practically every mechanical part ever produced. But it's also a fact that the average car of the 30's accumulated nowhere near the number of miles, and as quickly, as modern cars. I too would like to know the failure rates of this fan in the 30's but we may never know that. However, we can see that even change-averse old Henry was forced, for some reason, to re-design the fan toward the end of production - and to a less-aerodynamically-efficient, yet more durable, design no less! Was it because of unacceptably-high failure rates in service? - or simply, as Henry was prone to do, to cut the cost of manufacturing wherever possible? I'm taking a wild guess that failures had something to do with it. Even a "few" failures back then would have quickly become a high-profile issue (as they have in spades today!) for public relations given the damage and safety implications. When someone is not lucky enough to catch a beginning crack very quickly and pull the fan, these end up not being "passive" failures.

All of the input here, I think, has been informative, useful and even entertaining. Good stuff. Gotta do more of it - but without belittling the guy who voices an unpopular or innocently-erronious view or asks that inevitable "dumb question" from time to time. I've asked my share of them. We're all gentlemen, right (to varying degrees)?

Note - I hear the reports of others who mentioned different locations for initiation of the cracks. My own experience with each of seven original fans (while trying to find just ONE I could use - back when I was uninformed about them and was overly-obsessed with "originality") was that the crack initiated at the radius where the leading edge of the blade intersected the hub. Classic fatigue failures. Two of them developed cracks within a few hours of running AFTER being certified "crack-free" by professional magnaflux inspection.
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Old 05-06-2012, 04:35 PM   #139
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I enjoy these kinds of discussions as they tend to bring out points that some folks may not have ever considered. If someone picks up a safety tip out of it and an injury or serious car damage is avoided, it's all worth it.

Marco, I have always appreciated your inputs here and have learned and applied a lot from them - and look forward to many more of your expert contributions. But I will stand by my own "technical" observations about the original fan because I've personally been affected by these failures and have made an effort to learn as much as possible about the fan's design, construction, failure modes and causes. I certainly don't know all there is to know and, as with other things about the good old Model A, there are honest, thoughtful differences of opinion on the subject - as we see very often here.

If you're inclined to be one to defend the original fan and its continued use today, for whatever reasons, that's your choice. But the history of failures and the expense they've caused folks who've used them should be known by both the informed and the nubie-uninformed so they can make their own decision. I don't think that someone who voices that position should be accused of "spreading misinformation and B.S." We here can easily stick to the issues without denigrating the other person.

Yes, out of five million Model A's produced, it is a statistical reality that some were driven "100's of thousands of miles" with no fan troubles. That kind of statistical scatter of failure data is true of practically every mechanical part ever produced. But it's also a fact that the average car of the 30's accumulated nowhere near the number of miles, and as quickly, as modern cars. I too would like to know the failure rates of this fan in the 30's but we may never know that. However, we can see that even change-averse old Henry was forced, for some reason, to re-design the fan toward the end of production - and to a less-aerodynamically-efficient, yet more durable, design no less! Was it because of unacceptably-high failure rates in service? - or simply, as Henry was prone to do, to cut the cost of manufacturing wherever possible? I'm taking a wild guess that failures had something to do with it. Even a "few" failures back then would have quickly become a high-profile issue (as they have in spades today!) for public relations given the damage and safety implications. When someone is not lucky enough to catch a beginning crack very quickly and pull the fan, these end up not being "passive" failures.

All of the input here, I think, has been informative, useful and even entertaining. Good stuff. Gotta do more of it - but without belittling the guy who voices an unpopular or innocently-erronious view or asks that inevitable "dumb question" from time to time. I've asked my share of them. We're all gentlemen, right (to varying degrees)?

Note - I hear the reports of others who mentioned different locations for initiation of the cracks. My own experience with each of seven original fans (while trying to find just ONE I could use - back when I was uninformed about them and was overly-obsessed with "originality") was that the crack initiated at the radius where the leading edge of the blade intersected the hub. Classic fatigue failures. Two of them developed cracks within a few hours of running AFTER being certified "crack-free" by professional magnaflux inspection.
Isn't it pretty well accepted that the Company essentially used the public as their testing ground in many aspects? Which I'm sure many companies have done and still do, whether they admit it or not. Certainly technology for quality control was very primitive back in Model "A" days but still.....
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Old 05-06-2012, 05:39 PM   #140
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Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

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If you're inclined to be one to defend the original fan and its continued use today, for whatever reasons, that's your choice. But the history of failures and the expense they've caused folks who've used them should be known by both the informed and the nubie-uninformed so they can make their own decision. I don't think that someone who voices that position should be accused of "spreading misinformation and B.S." We here can easily stick to the issues without denigrating the other person.
If you look back at what I wrote I've never suggested that ANYONE else run one. In fact in this same thread, two years ago this month, I wrote:

"With all that said I won't recommend anyone else run an original fan. I don't want to be called to task for the decisions of others and the resulting success or failure. It also won't hurt my feelings to have more fans to choose from on the swap meet tables!"

In recent days I've only argued against the supposition that the original design was a failure from day one and should have lasted forever. I've also argued in the past against those that insist an original fan should be disregarded in judging, most of whom admit they have no interest in ever showing a car however seem compelled to write the rules for those that do. There are some exceptions.


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Note - I hear the reports of others who mentioned different locations for initiation of the cracks. My own experience with each of seven original fans (while trying to find just ONE I could use - back when I was uninformed about them and was overly-obsessed with "originality") was that the crack initiated at the radius where the leading edge of the blade intersected the hub. Classic fatigue failures. Two of them developed cracks within a few hours of running AFTER being certified "crack-free" by professional magnaflux inspection.
Yep, I've felt like doing a writeup on the subject but just don't have the time. However since you brought it up I will add one point of interest (to me anyway). If you look carefully at an original fan you will note that the two layers are seam welded together around the perimeter. Some have clear pattern from the rollers. Look closely where the weld ends in the front near the hub. The machine was only able to get so close leaving a very short "open" area between the end of the weld and where the layers fold over the hub. This is the flex point where the two layers can move independently as they weaken. Every crack I've seen was at the end of the weld.

In my case, my fan has never been bulged from internal corrosion, the front face is flat, the blades are in line across the central axis, and although not tested I believe the pitch of both blades still match. Lastly, the "open" area has been tig welded closed to reduce the ability to flex at that point.

Will that all save my bacon? Only time will tell. I've run the engine at very high speeds a few times which I won't likely do again but so far, so good. Again, only time will tell. If it fails without me catching it in time then it's on me. As with most things in life, It's MY choice.
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