Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-12-2010, 08:36 PM   #21
MBI Houston
Senior Member
 
MBI Houston's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: The Woodlands, TX
Posts: 172
Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

I would be interested if it looks good and is not too expensive. Less then $100.
MBI Houston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2010, 08:43 PM   #22
Tom Wesenberg
Senior Member
 
Tom Wesenberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mpls, MN
Posts: 27,480
Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

Question for Joe, what is your normal top speed? And did your fan ever have any rust pits, or make noise from rust specks inside the blade? Did you do periodic checks of the blade when the hood was open for any other reason?

I don't want to loose a fan blade, but I am running my original 2 blade fan.

Brent, I'd like to see a good repro fan made. Yes, price would matter as far as purchase.
Tom Wesenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 05-12-2010, 09:34 PM   #23
Steve Wastler
Senior Member
 
Steve Wastler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,987
Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
What if I were to tell you that someone is seeking feedback on possible manufacturing of a NEW reproduction stamped steel 2 blade fan. How many here would step-up and buy a brand new 2-blade fan that would be look authentic enough to pass as NOS?

Feedback??

.
I'D be in for two steel fans
Steve Wastler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2010, 10:04 PM   #24
RandyinUtah
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ogden Utah
Posts: 224
Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

About fifteen years ago I purchased a steel reproduction fan from Bratens and it was so out of balance and untrue that I sent it back. I would be interested in purchasing if the new one check out.
RandyinUtah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2010, 10:29 PM   #25
MikeK
Senior Member
 
MikeK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Windy City
Posts: 2,882
Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

Hate to be the naysayer, but NO. Price is not the concern, reliability is. OK, so it's new and you reset the cycles-to-failure clock, but it is still stamped steel flat stock and will fail from cyclic work hardening.

Now, if it was a vacuum investment cast nickel-titanium alloy single piece with controlled grain structure, like jet engine turbine blades are made, I'd pay $1,000 for one in a heartbeat. If made this way, every detail, including seam weld and spot weld marks could be reproduced exactly. It would be a perfect visual (J.S.) match, pass the magnet test, be 10x as strong, and likely have a M.T.B.F. of 100,000 hrs @ 10,000 rpm. As a plus, on addition to dynamic ballancing, the air thrust balance between the two blades could be near perfect.

Vacuum Investment Casting Overview Link Here: http://www.consarc.com/pages/vpic.html
__________________
Mechanical engineering 101: If you put an adjustment knob, screw, bolt, or tolerance specs on something, some people will immediately fiddle with it. If you mark it DO NOT TOUCH everyone will mess with it.
MikeK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2010, 11:21 PM   #26
JoeWay
Senior Member
 
JoeWay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Quincy CA
Posts: 749
Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg View Post
Question for Joe, what is your normal top speed? And did your fan ever have any rust pits, or make noise from rust specks inside the blade? Did you do periodic checks of the blade when the hood was open for any other reason?

I don't want to loose a fan blade, but I am running my original 2 blade fan.

Brent, I'd like to see a good repro fan made. Yes, price would matter as far as purchase.
Tom, personally I'm comfortable at 55 plus on the right road. I used a later four-blade fan for the last few years until a few weeks ago when I installed one of the new Snyder aluminum fans.

The club member who lost the blade is more of a 45-50 mph type, and we had been doing that speed for many miles on a fairly rural road when the blade came off.

I can't answer the questions about rust, other than to say it was VERY rusty inside the remaining part of the fan. It was bead-blasted prior to Magnaflux and painted after. The hub and remaining blade still look as new.

Joe
__________________
1929 Tudor
since 1962
Feather River A's
JoeWay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2010, 01:44 AM   #27
TerryH
Senior Member
 
TerryH's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Fountain Valley, Calif.
Posts: 802
Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

After all of the many, many warning posts listed the past couple of years, it is hard to imagine anyone still insisting on using those old steel fans. The word has been out for a long time now, but maybe the local clubs need to emphasize this to their members...........
TerryH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2010, 05:33 AM   #28
peters180a/170b
Senior Member
 
peters180a/170b's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Putnam Valley N.Y.
Posts: 2,151
Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

The guy i am talking about with a "NEW STEEL" authentic fan did test one out. And yes its 10X stronger and runs at a higher rpm's. He even flew down to Texas to speak to Miller welding company about the welds.
peters180a/170b is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2010, 07:28 AM   #29
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 9,457
Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeK View Post
Hate to be the naysayer, but NO. Price is not the concern, reliability is. OK, so it's new and you reset the cycles-to-failure clock, but it is still stamped steel flat stock and will fail from cyclic work hardening.

Now, if it was a vacuum investment cast nickel-titanium alloy single piece with controlled grain structure, like jet engine turbine blades are made, I'd pay $1,000 for one in a heartbeat. If made this way, every detail, including seam weld and spot weld marks could be reproduced exactly. It would be a perfect visual (J.S.) match, pass the magnet test, be 10x as strong, and likely have a M.T.B.F. of 100,000 hrs @ 10,000 rpm. As a plus, on addition to dynamic ballancing, the air thrust balance between the two blades could be near perfect.

Vacuum Investment Casting Overview Link Here: http://www.consarc.com/pages/vpic.html

Well, in all true honestly, I ain't a metalurgist nor do I profess to know anything regarding what you say about the cyclic work hardening so I will yield to your knowledge in that regard, however one or two thoughts do come to mind.
Since we mentioned mufflers earlier in this thread, we'll bring that analogy up again. We can buy the cheapie muffler for less than a $100, --or we can buy a steel Aries for about double the price of the cheapie. One could make an argument that both are made of steel and are 'expendible items' so why bother with paying twice as much for the Aries?

To me, the same mindset could be applied to discussions about shocks, or tires, or piston rings, or patch panels, ...or many other things. I guess it really boils down to perceived value.

I realize that $200-$300 for a fan seems like a lot of money, but in today's society of manufacturing, I don't think less than $100 will be enough to cover Design, Tooling, R&D, and all the R.O.I. Would you not agree that probably 1000 units is a realistic market for these for the life of the tooling?

Jim may have an excellent point that the aluminum unit is the best alternative in fine-point & touring class where the owner would understand going in there will be a point deduction but that the alloy fan is allowed.

.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2010, 07:39 AM   #30
Mike V. Florida
Senior Member
 
Mike V. Florida's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South Florida
Posts: 14,052
Send a message via AIM to Mike V. Florida
Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

i just had a 4 blade one go the other dat so the problem is not just the oririnal 2 bladed ones.

As for judging, what is the price point return? Is $200.00 - $300.00 worth the money for the number of points you will receive?

Let's face it, with enough money you can have an A built with brand new materials and have it make 500 points.
__________________
What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II
Mike V. Florida is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2010, 07:45 AM   #31
Mitch//pa
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bucks County, PA
Posts: 11,454
Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

mike was it the replacement bolt together 4 blade fan
Mitch//pa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2010, 07:57 AM   #32
SteveM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 187
Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida View Post
As for judging, what is the price point return? Is $200.00 - $300.00 worth the money for the number of points you will receive?
Depends. If it is the differences between 125 points and 130 points, probably not. If it is the difference between 495 points and 500 points, hell yes!

Even putting aside safety concerns (which are very valid!), if the judging standards don't allow safer fans, then there will be a lot fewer original radiators and hoods out there.

Steve
('31 Deluxe Coupe with not-very-original 4-blade fan)
SteveM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2010, 08:25 AM   #33
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 9,457
Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
Depends. If it is the differences between 125 points and 130 points, probably not. If it is the difference between 495 points and 500 points, hell yes!

Even putting aside safety concerns (which are very valid!), if the judging standards don't allow safer fans, then there will be a lot fewer original radiators and hoods out there.

Steve
('31 Deluxe Coupe with not-very-original 4-blade fan)
Steve, the Standards DO allow you to use something other than an original fan --but not without a deduction. I think the point of view on this is that if they alter the Standards to "overlook" something, then they are compromising the very reason for having Judging or saying the JS is a book by which states how Henry Ford intended each of his cars to roll out of the factory door looking like.

I think what we sometimes forget is that when we enter a vehicle in fine-point judging, not everything must be exactly like it is written in the Standards to participate. I can have many deviations as long as the 'Big 14' qualifications are met. Often times, an owner must determine exactly how much a point is worth to them financially. THAT value is different between owners!


.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2010, 08:32 AM   #34
Bruce
Senior Member
 
Bruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: 60 miles west of Chicago
Posts: 473
Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

The late '31 design/replacement fan Ford offered to fix this problem 75 years ago? Not heard much feedback on that fan -- other than it is rare and expensive.
Bruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2010, 08:47 AM   #35
Tom from Drippin'
Senior Member
 
Tom from Drippin''s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Dripping Springs, Texas
Posts: 286
Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

I don't have a dog in this hunt....I have 6 blade plastic on my cars...But, as I understand it, it's not IF an original will self destruct, it's WHEN.
Bet you can't get a radiator replaced.......hood repaired......or ckeck out of the ER.....cheaper.
Then you have to buy/find a new fan anyway.
Tom from Drippin' is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2010, 08:53 AM   #36
Kurt in NJ
Senior Member
 
Kurt in NJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: on the Littlefield
Posts: 5,204
Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

Was the late 31 fan made for a "fix" or was it just cheaper to manufacture?

I have been using the late fan for 35 years, I bought a NOS one at hershey -the seller told me it was no good for judging because it had the "seam" on the back (which means I bought it cheap)

I have seen the late fans with broken blades also, they seem to mostly break at the weld seam.

After looking at the quality of the reproduction alum fan I decided to take my chances with what I have.
Kurt in NJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2010, 09:26 AM   #37
Sparky
Senior Member
 
Sparky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 617
Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

I have a 2-blade fan and you are making me nervous. How do you tell if it is an original fan? I'm guessing that it is not, but is there a way to check without removing it?
Sparky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2010, 09:42 AM   #38
Tom Wesenberg
Senior Member
 
Tom Wesenberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mpls, MN
Posts: 27,480
Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

If you have a 2 blade fan and the blades are made by welding 2 stamped pieces of steel together with a rolled weld around the outer edge of the blades, then you have an original fan like I am running. A single thickness steel 2 blade would be a later replacement, or even a replacement 4 blade with 2 blades removed.

The aluminum 2 blade fans had a problem with blades not being parallel to each other, and one blade often looked like it was curved rearward. Hopefully the ones being made now are much improved. I haven't worked on one for a year or more.
Tom Wesenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2010, 09:46 AM   #39
JoeWay
Senior Member
 
JoeWay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Quincy CA
Posts: 749
Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
...the Standards DO allow you to use something other than an original fan --but not without a deduction....
.
Jim and Brent, I think this would be a major issue to me if I were building a points car. Either you're after all the points or you're not. If you are, you need a fan that passes without deduction. From that perpective, $300 is not too much to pay for a fan that passes. Some of the points guys pay more than that for NOS parts that are less significant in judging.

I don't know if there are any other original parts that have proven conclusively to be a hazard to the car itself and (potentially) to adjacent people as well. I can't think of any. This to me indicates a strong need to make an exception for fans.

I really like Clem's idea--require an original fan, but make it a display item and allow a safe fan on the car with no deduction.

Joe
__________________
1929 Tudor
since 1962
Feather River A's
JoeWay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2010, 09:54 AM   #40
JoeWay
Senior Member
 
JoeWay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Quincy CA
Posts: 749
Default Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg View Post
I don't want to loose a fan blade, but I am running my original 2 blade fan.
Tom, at our club meeting Tuesday night Ron said he had been running original fans for 47 years and never had a problem. It always happened to the other guy.

He's ordered one Snyder fan for his coupe and another for his roadster. He also has a very early (A12xx) huckster which he is restoring for judging. I bet he replaces the fan on that one after he takes it to a meet.

Joe
__________________
1929 Tudor
since 1962
Feather River A's
JoeWay is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:59 AM.