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Old 07-18-2020, 01:40 PM   #141
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Whenever I post an update to this project, my mailbox fills up with questions, comments, and interesting stories. Here are a few, and there are more to come.

I have been following your project, but think I am not on a list to be informed as soon as ordering is possible. I am old enough to want to get your block crank and rods as soon as possible. Who knows what tomorrow may bring. I would like to buy directly, but would be okay going through a dealer if that would get me the product and a complete block faster. I was following Todís efforts to cast a new block, but you seem to be far ahead, and as a SF Bay Area guy I would prefer to have the motor done locally. Machinists are hard to find who specialize in Model Aís, but as your design is internally more modern, I may be able to use a local Burlingame automotive machinist who seems to do quality work.
Please put me on the mailing list to get ordering information as soon as you are ready to start taking orders and deposits.
Thanks, Russ

Russ, there is no list at this time. We have nothing to sell until the new engine engineering evaluation parts successfully pass our evaluation. The introductory price for a limited time will be $3500 per set of parts (cylinder block, crankshaft and connecting rods including all fasteners, dowel pins, and bushings).
Dealers who order 5 sets or more at a time will receive a further discount.
Once we have something to sell, people on the Email list, all MAFCA and MARC chapters, and internet forums will be notified.





Why reinvent the wheel? Skat can make the crankshaft and rods and they are already drilled for pressure oil. It seems to me to be a much cheaper way to go. I have worked with and used Skat products for quite a while and their quality is top notch and their suppliers are reliable and cost effective. After reading from start of this project to this email, it seems to me your vendors have been suspect in a number of areas to say the least. I will tell you that many Chinese vendors will tell you one thing and deliver totally different spec. For example, a company I am very familure spec'td a hi end bike carrier for expensive off road mountain bikes. After delivering a number of these expensive racks, customers began filing claims as their bikes were falling off of car. Even though the spec was totally clear and the Chinese factory and manager signed off, he decided to use grade 2 bolts instead of the grade 8 that was called for. The bouncing of the car and bikes broke the grade 2 bolts and the vertical bike support fell into the road and the car following ran over and smashed the bikes. When the company contacted the factory seems no one took responsibility, and tried to blame it on the bolt supplier. It put the company out of business due to the claims with no one in China stepping up to take responsibility. The moral is don't believe a word they say period. Incidentally the Chinese shipped about 25 racks for inspection and guess what they had the spec'td grade 8 bolts. Good luck with your project I can see lots of down stream issues with their steel quality and fasteners, so I opt out and pass, just give me a henry block and a quality Skat crank and rods. Just by sheer number of cranks that Skat buys in China they ain't gonna screw with them. Skat has 30 crank grinders going all day long and they supply a lot of major manufacturers. In your case maybe 50 cranks and blocks if you are lucky. . Howard



Howard, Thanks for your comments and the "hi end" bike rack story.

I like SCAT products.

SCAT makes crankshafts for Model T, Model A, Model B, and 4 cylinder Chevrolet engines. I have met in person with Tom Leib, owner of SCAT and we had a long conversation about crankshafts.

The crankshafts for the above engines are all made from a "Fits-All" forging from India that is machined in California. The "Fits-All" forging is a compromise for any of the engines listed above and the rod journals cannot be machined for Model B connecting rods because there is not enough material on the forging.

The "New Model A Engine" has a crankshaft with 5 main bearings, 8 counterweights, and 4 connecting rod bearings that are all 2 inches in diameter. The corresponding SCAT crankshaft for a Model A engine has 3 main bearings, 4 counterweights, and 4 connecting rod bearings that are 1.5 inch diameter.

Regarding your comment "After reading from start of this project to this email, it seems to me your vendors have been suspect in a number of areas to say the least.". Thank you for following this project from the beginning. The only vendor that I spent money to perform in the past was Lodi Iron Works. They had no quality control, and refused to follow a procedure even when I wrote it like a Ikea or Lego manual without words for the assembly of cores, and this is why the project stalled. We are now working with factories in China that have good quality control and specialize in making OEM engines for many manufacturers.

Regarding the "hi end" bike racks and the Grade 8 bolt problem, all high strength bolts have marks on their head to indicate strength. Low strength bolts like grade 2 have no markings. Did the bolts that failed have head markings? Did the bike rack company that imported the racks have any Quality Assurance personnel that inspected bolt heads? Did the installation instructions specify a torque value for the bolts? Any of the above questions could have prevented the problem. China is not a big fastener manufacturer, and our fasteners for the new engine will come from factories in South Korea that specialize in making high strength fasteners. Our builders guide will specify torque values for the fasteners and any low strength fastener will fail during engine assembly.

Regarding your comment "Good luck with your project I can see lots of down stream issues with their steel quality and fasteners, so I opt out and pass, just give me a henry block and a quality Skat crank and rods." Thanks for wishing us good luck with this project and I am sorry to see that you are not interested and want to "opt out". The new Model A engine is utilizing materials and processes that are used in modern engines by companies that specialize in building engines. I am confident that we won't have the fastener problems that you experienced. I also want to wish you the best of luck in your choice to use an original "Henry" 3 main block with a SCAT 3 main "Fits-All" crankshaft.








Hi Terry,
Sounds like this project is coming right along
I have a few questions
1. does the engine come with all the main bearings and rod bearings?
2. Is this going to end up as a 3 or 5 main engine?
3. What do you expect the dealer prices to be on 5 sets?
What pistons with the engine be setup to use?Thanks for your time
I will be interested to possibly being a central USA dealer for these
Eric


1) The only bearings being supplied are the thrust washers. All other bearing are MAHLE part number CB745P (trimetal) and they were used from 1955 to 2003 in several V-8, 6, and 4-cylinder engines built by General Motors. The first usage was in the 1955 265 cubic inch V-8, and the last usage was in the 2.0 liter 4 cylinder OHV that was made in 2003. Both the main and connecting rod journals are the same at 2 inch diameter. The price for a pair of inserts including postage can be less than $3 for a pair. 12 pairs of inserts are required for the new engine. Check out Ebay #281494310467. Other manufacturers also make this insert.
2) 5 mains
3) I'll have John Lampl contact you regarding Dealer pricing.
Regarding pistons, all interfaces on the new engine are identical a to stock Model A. If any part fits a Model A engine, that same part will fit the new engine.





Thank you. I truly enjoy the project and pleased to be one of your first sales orders when you are confident George

George, Thanks for the kind words. At this stage in the project, I don't see anything major that can go wrong.





Terry, first I would like to commend you for your commitment to this project. I have been following it more or less since you started and I realize the magnitude of your undertaking.
I am very interested in an introductory engine to put in my 1929 dirt track race car with a Riley 2 port head. I do have a couple of questions.
Does the 60 day introductory price include a complete short block with the 2 oil pumps you mentioned?
Is the grind of the camshaft a mirror the Model A, is it ground more like a Model B, or is it some other grind?
Thank you, Bob


Bob, we are not supplying a complete short block. We are only supplying a cylinder block, crankshaft, and a set of connecting rods that are ready to assemble. You get to choose pistons, rings, valve train, and all other parts needed to build an engine. With your Riley head, you will need a special camshaft ground that is compatible with your rocker arm ratio.






Terry, thanks for the update but I refuse to visit the haterbarn for my information, so keep the email updates coming or post the updates on the ford vintage. I know yo are a member there too. azzclone

azzclone, Thanks for your comments.
The thread on FordBarn is very long with over 26,000 views, and that is why I post there.
If you read the FordBarn post from the start, there is a story about how this dead project was revived. The story is not on the ford vintage or the Ahooga Forum.
Are you one of the people that are banned from FordBarn?
I accidentally got banned from the ford vintage and was banned from seeing posts. I contacted Steve Plucker and he contacted Mitch who reinstated me.
If you can't see the posts on FordBarn, please let me know and I'll post also on the ford vintage.
I will continue to send Email updates until this project either succeeds, or comes to a halt as it did when Lodi Iron Works could not deliver as promised.





Terry, Thank you for your update and great to hear of the progress being made.
I really look forward to hearing the results of your validation testing and trust that the amount of time you and your team have taken to develop the engine will prove to be a success. Please put me on the list to be able to purchase the block/crank, rods, caps, etc. once they are available for sale.
In reviewing your webpage is it still your intention to follow through and have the 22 pound flywheels built?
Stay safe, Regards, Bob


Bob, Our next project will be the flywheel. I have a SolidWorks design that is on hold until we validate the new engine parts and authorize production.





Thanks Terry for the update. This is great news, looking forward get the new parts.
Lance, God Bless America, Sent from my iPad

Lance, thanks for your comment and God bless America in these troubled times.




Looking forward to the release date for purchase! John

Me too. If all goes well, we should have parts for sale in September 2020.




Thank you. I truly enjoy the project and pleased to be one of your first sales orders when you are confident George

George, Thanks for your comment.
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Old 07-18-2020, 04:45 PM   #142
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hi guys, I am new on this group, but I have been following Terry's work for many years. I actually visited him in California long ago when he was starting this project. I'm very glad to see that it is nearing completion, the design looks really good, as you would expect from someone with his skills.

I have been reading the thread, and I see comments about how we can't cast engine blocks in the USA, we've lost the skills, labor costs are going up in China (according to the Apple CEO) etc. I beg to disagree. I am getting the following engine blocks made here in the USA, in Michigan: Bugatti Type 57, Miller 122, 1907 Pierce Arrow, 1909 Christie. We've actually sold & shipped Bugatti blocks to Europe. It's expensive to work in the USA, for a lot of reasons we don't need to get into here on a car forum. But the skills and foundry's are here. I'm certainly not alone, guys like Tod B. make me feel like an amateur.

Anyway, I apologize, this is not my thread, so I'll leave it there. I do look forward to watching the completion of Terry's work.
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Old 07-29-2020, 06:11 PM   #143
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hi guys, I am new on this group, but I have been following Terry's work for many years. I actually visited him in California long ago when he was starting this project. I'm very glad to see that it is nearing completion, the design looks really good, as you would expect from someone with his skills.

I have been reading the thread, and I see comments about how we can't cast engine blocks in the USA, we've lost the skills, labor costs are going up in China (according to the Apple CEO) etc. I beg to disagree. I am getting the following engine blocks made here in the USA, in Michigan: Bugatti Type 57, Miller 122, 1907 Pierce Arrow, 1909 Christie. We've actually sold & shipped Bugatti blocks to Europe. It's expensive to work in the USA, for a lot of reasons we don't need to get into here on a car forum. But the skills and foundry's are here. I'm certainly not alone, guys like Tod B. make me feel like an amateur.

Anyway, I apologize, this is not my thread, so I'll leave it there. I do look forward to watching the completion of Terry's work.




Lee, It's good to hear from you. Thanks for joining FordBarn and reading the thread. The New Model A engine project has been an adventure.

We have accomplished more in the last year in China than I did in the many years working with Lodi Iron Works. I too, have been following your Christie project and am amazed on how you are creating SolidWorks models from the patent drawings and photographs.

Are you using the foundry in Michigan that cast the new Model T cylinder blocks for Ford's centennial celebration in 2003? When it was becoming evident that Lodi Iron Works was not able to perform, I spoke with that foundry in Michigan over the phone and they seemed very capable. I also spoke with other foundries in the Midwest, and several sounded like they were capable. The biggest problem was tooling. As a general rule, any foundry will only guarantee good castings if their pattern shop makes the patterns and core boxes.

I contacted Tod B. when I pulled the tooling from Lodi Iron Works, and he was not interested in working with me. Our Email exchange is documented somewhere in the thread.

I have only seen photographs of the parts being made in China, and they look good. Due to covid19, we won't physically be able to see the parts until they arrive at our 3rd party evaluator.

I know that that the new Model A engine (cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods) could be produced in the USA, but it would have to be the Midwest and the cost would be prohibitive for the average Model A enthusiast.

Our engine projects are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. You are working with people that have deep pockets and are making just a few castings that are unobtainable, whereas we are working with people that have shallow pockets, original castings that are available, but not the best design and worn, and many new machined castings and forgings at a time.
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Old 07-30-2020, 10:29 AM   #144
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Schedule update: John Lampl just spoke with the factory in China. All engineering evaluation parts are scheduled to ship on Aug 10, 2020. They will be Fed-Ex air-shipped, need to clear customs, and then will be ground shipped to our 3rd party evaluator. Arrival date at the 3rd party evaluator is expected to be between Aug. 14 and 17, 2020.
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Old 07-30-2020, 10:46 PM   #145
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Hi Terry,
Great to hear from you. Thanks for the kind words on the Christie project.
I do not know what foundry cast the Ford centennial blocks, but I currently use Northfield foundry. As you say, the tooling design is very important. I design my own molds and I go to great lengths to make the foundry's job as easy as possible. I think that reduces the scrap rate. We have been very lucky and the first casting of each new block has been good.
I do not know any foundry that gives a written guarantee, even if they make the patterns. I have been fortunate to work on some higher end cars, but it doesn't matter to the foundry if it's 4 cylinder Ford or a 4 cylinder Miller block. (two blocks make a straight eight Miller). I do use 3D printed cores, because my quantities are not high, so I don't spend money on permanent core boxes. I can do some interesting things with printed cores, and change them anytime I want with a few strokes on the computer.
Anyway, I can't wait to see your new parts in August!
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Old 08-03-2020, 02:53 PM   #146
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Lee, Thanks for your comments.

The foundry that you are using, Northfield Manufacturing in Westland, MI. (www.northfieldfoundry.com) is the foundry that cast the 2003 Ford Model T centennial cylinder blocks, and one that I contacted and felt that they were capable. They have also cast Maxwell cylinders for an acquaintance of mine and Charlie Yapp from "Secrets of Speed" has used them.

3-D mold printing machines are amazing. There is no need for draft, and even reverse draft is allowable. The cores and mold including cope, drag, sprues, runners, and vents are all printed as a single entity and are ready for pouring. There are no parting lines.

Before I decided to use Lodi Iron Works, I visited a foundry at the repurposed McClellan Air Force Base near Sacramento that was set up for the "Casting Emission Reduction Program". This foundry had an automated casting line from Ford Motor Company for an obsolete 4 cylinder engine. The foundry was trying different core binders and measuring the resulting emissions for each different core binder. They had a mold printing machine and they quoted a price of $2500 to mold a Model A Ford cylinder block. Lodi's quote was $800 for the same cylinder block using patterns and core boxes..

If the choice were to procure a printed mold cylinder block and add the cost of main caps, machining of the cylinder block, forging and machining connecting rods, and the cost of a 5 main crankshaft, the cost becomes prohibitive for the Model A enthusiast.

Our introductory price of $3500 includes a fully machined cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods that are ready for assembly, and close to the cost of a quality rebuild.
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Old 08-04-2020, 02:00 PM   #147
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Terry, my son and I canít wait to get our hands on this new engine! Ted
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Old 08-05-2020, 09:25 PM   #148
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That's an incredible introductory price! I almost want one, even though I have no idea what I'd do with it
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Old 08-05-2020, 10:52 PM   #149
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Terry, my son and I canít wait to get our hands on this new engine! Ted
Yes, we definitely are!

I have a question about finish machining.

Will the cylinder bores be finish honed or just bored and then need a final hone? Valve seats as well, will they have seats inserted? Will they have any angle(s) on them upon arrival? Valve guide bores will be ready to accept the factory sized guides of my choice?

I have the machines for this, I'm just looking to get the ball rolling on some pricing for inquiring potential customers.

Thanks again Terry and co. I am patiently awaiting pictures of the engines when they get here in a few days!

Theo
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Old 08-16-2020, 01:07 PM   #150
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Theo,
Cylinder bores will be finished honed at 3.875/3.876 inch diameter per Ford Drawing A-6015 and this is suitable for original split-skirt pistons. Solid-skirt pistons will require more piston/cylinder wall clearance.
Exhaust seats will be installed and all valve seats are 45 degrees per Ford drawing A-6015.
Valve guide and tappet bores are .5940/.5945 inch diameter per Ford drawing A-6015.
These dimensions will be verified on the engineering samples before production is authorized.






Hi terry,
Sorry to bother you as I know you are very busy with this very exciting new engine.
One further question, you mention in your email plumbing for a oil filter, is that fairly straight forward? I certainly would want to have an oil filter from first start up.
Regards Peter



Peter,
To use a full flow oil filter, a few plumbing changes need to be made.
1)If a modified Model A Ford oil pump is used, 2 oil passages in the cylinder block need to be blocked off.
2) If an aftermarket (like Stipe) oil pump is used, 1 oil passage in the cylinder block needs to be blocked.
3) With either 1 or 2 above, all oil will exit the side of the cylinder block at the 1/8-27 NPT port.
4) The oil flows through the oil filter and returns to the cylinder block through the lower timing gear inspection cover bolt. This bolt needs to be drilled and tapped 1/8-27 NPT, and has an oil passage behind it that connects to the main oil galley.
5) The verification plan includes testing with and without an oil filter.

There are several people from Australia that are interested in this project. When the engineering samples pass verification and production is authorized, we will start a list of people interested in purchasing the new engine parts. If there is enough interest from Australia, we would like to ship directly from China to Australia to save on transportation and customs.
Terry Burtz
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Old 08-21-2020, 08:58 AM   #151
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, thank you for answering my questions about the machining specifics, thats great!

It would be great if shipping straight to Canada was an option as well! I am set for an order of 5 as soon as they are available.

Thanks,
Theo
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Old 09-01-2020, 11:50 AM   #152
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Terry, we are eagerly anticipating further updates! Ted

Last edited by motordr; 09-01-2020 at 11:51 AM. Reason: Spelcheck
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Old 09-02-2020, 10:53 PM   #153
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The 1st set of new engine parts (cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods) that are needed to assemble the first engineering evaluation engine have arrived and are at the 3rd parties facility.

A partially cut apart cylinder block has also arrived. It will be cut further to validate wall thickness.

The 1st cylinder block has cam bushings that are .001 inch oversize beyond drawing dimensions. This was found during final inspection in China and will have minimal effect because we are using a new Stipe camshaft with standard size bearings.

The 2nd set of new engine parts will have correctly sized cam bushings and should arrive in about 10 days.

The 3rd party has asked us not to come for a few days so he can do his own inspection and verification ahead of our arrival.

John, Bill, and I have airplane tickets to fly to the 3rd party on September 8th.

I will post an update on September 9th.

The attached pictures were taken this morning at the 3rd parties facility.

Terry Burtz
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Old 09-03-2020, 12:52 AM   #154
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Terry you should do a good photo shoot when the first engine is completed with you bending over the engine stamping number 1 on it just like Henry......
Your definitely going to leave your mark on this hobby.
Thanks for your perseverance in this endeavor. We new we would see the day.
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Old 09-03-2020, 01:03 AM   #155
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I have a question about the oil return. Is it intentional that the oil return hole is so small?
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Old 09-03-2020, 07:38 AM   #156
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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I have a question about the oil return. Is it intentional that the oil return hole is so small?
Bill,
The engine bearing surfaces including the mains, cam and rods are fed oil from an oil passage located between the tappet bosses and the cylinder walls. The crankshaft is drilled to feed the rod bearings. There is likely little if any oil passing through the oil return pipe. The size of the hole shown should be more than adequate to flow any oil passing through or accumulating in the pipe.
The "dipper tray" turns into a "windage tray" as the new rods do not have dippers.

Dave
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Old 09-03-2020, 05:40 PM   #157
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, in a stock application, what kind of flywheel weight would you recommend since the crank is adding a lot of weight to the rotating assembly.
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Old 09-03-2020, 06:18 PM   #158
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Where is your 3rd party work being done?
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Old 09-03-2020, 09:18 PM   #159
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Where is your 3rd party work being done?
I am sure he is not disclosing that so the third party will be left alone to do their work.
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Old 09-03-2020, 11:37 PM   #160
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry you should do a good photo shoot when the first engine is completed with you bending over the engine stamping number 1 on it just like Henry......
Your definitely going to leave your mark on this hobby.
Thanks for your perseverance in this endeavor. We new we would see the day. Dodge

I have discussed this with John, and we will likely do it. Henry's stamping of #1 was a photo op because the early engines had the serial number boss located just above the water inlet, not at the top of the cylinder block.





I have a question about the oil return. Is it intentional that the oil return hole is so small?
Bill G

Originally Posted by Bill G
I have a question about the oil return. Is it intentional that the oil return hole is so small?

Bill, The engine bearing surfaces including the mains, cam and rods are fed oil from an oil passage located between the tappet bosses and the cylinder walls. The crankshaft is drilled to feed the rod bearings. There is likely little if any oil passing through the oil return pipe. The size of the hole shown should be more than adequate to flow any oil passing through or accumulating in the pipe.
The "dipper tray" turns into a "windage tray" as the new rods do not have dippers. Dave


Dave, Thanks for answering Bill's question. The only things that I can add to your answer is that the oil return pipe is only there for decoration and the small hole at the bottom is for drainage of any trapped oil. The floor of the valve chamber also has vent holes to the crankcase to allow the oil mist to lubricate the valve guides and tappets.







Terry, in a stock application, what kind of flywheel weight would you recommend since the crank is adding a lot of weight to the rotating assembly. Russ

We are making 30 pound flywheels that will accept the V-8 or tractor pressure plates. The flywheel will be sold separately since many enthusiasts already have a flywheel that they want to use. An engineering sample flywheel is at the 3rd party evaluator and will be used in validation.






Where is your 3rd party work being done? Carl


Where is your 3rd party work being done?
I am sure he is not disclosing that so the third party will be left alone to do their work. Chris


The 3rd party agreed to help validate the new engine, but was unsure of what he would receive and didn't want his name associated with something that could of been sub-standard.
This is why he wanted a few days to evaluate the parts before we arrived.
The machinist at the 3rd party is very enthused by what he saw and has already installed the valve guides and lapped the valve seats.
In a phone conversation today, the machinist said that everything fit as it should and there were no issues.

Due to covid19, John, Bill, Leonard, and myself have not seen the new engine parts other than photographs.
We have a detailed validation plan that includes appearance, tolerances, and performance.
Terry Burtz, Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
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